Warm Fermented Lager Thread

[Clint Yeastwood]

I brewed the wrong beer by mistake and had to ferment without pressure. It's a light lager, and I used 34/70. I fermented in the mid-60's. It's not finished, but the samples taste fantastic. It's what "industrial lager" would taste like if they used decent ingredients and cared about quality.

On the other hand, I made a never-fail recipe under pressure, and so far, it doesn't taste good at all. The bitterness is harsh and metallic. I am hoping some rest will fix it. Same yeast and temperature.

 

[Clint Yeastwood]

Well, I have to take that back. Tonight I had an Old Rasputin because I was wondering if coronavirus was still messing with me, and I needed a beer I could trust. It wasn't great. Too harsh.

Old Rasputin is what I would consider a perfect beer, and I very much doubt they send out bad batches, so I think something is still going on with my senses. Apparently, it can come and go. My guess is that the Old Rasputin was flawless and there was something wrong with me.

 

[dmtaylor]

Well, I have to take that back. Tonight I had an Old Rasputin because I was wondering if coronavirus was still messing with me, and I needed a beer I could trust. It wasn't great. Too harsh.

Old Rasputin is what I would consider a perfect beer, and I very much doubt they send out bad batches, so I think something is still going on with my senses. Apparently, it can come and go. My guess is that the Old Rasputin was flawless and there was something wrong with me.

If you absolutely must drink while still suffering the after-effects of COVID, now might be the perfect time to reach way back in the cabinet and guzzle that bad bottle of liquor that you haven't opened at all for the past 10 years or whatever.

Personally, I use such times to eat large quantities of superfood vegetables like kale or whatever other crap my wife has in the fridge that no one ever eats.

 

[Onthebrew]

yes, i can tell the difference between a warm-fermented version of a beer and its cold-fermented equivalent. HOWEVER, the difference isn't huge - my WF lagers are still clean, very low ester, low sulfur, etc. - while leads me to question the extra effort of traditional (i.e cold) lager fermentation. i don't want to go through the pain and expense of setting up enough fridge space for a once-a-year brew, for what i perceive as a minor difference. YMMV. if i had a fridge full of cash and limitless brewery space, i'd consider setting up dedicated lagering space... but i don't


warm fermentation isn't what is going to result in something tasting like those industrial lager, in fact it'll push you in the opposite direction. those beers are characterized, IMO, by their "cleanliness" - AKA their restrained flavor. to get something similar, you'd want to:

• use adjuncts such as rice, corn or sugar to get alcohol without adding to the malt flavor (except carlburg, iirc)
• ferment cold, as this suppresses yeast esters
• ferment with a very clean lager yeast, not something (relatively) flavorful like Weihenstephan, Bohemian, etc.

fermenting warm with 34/40 resulting in a hint of esters + using all malt + no having all the QA/QC controls of a multinational = no worries about producing those beers.


needed? definitely not. i suspect that most folks here are fermenting un-pressured.

Again, cheers. Great feedback.

 

[Onthebrew]

I have the option to get temps right down as well as put under pressure but given the advice above I’m just going to keep it simple this time and do a standard warm ferment.

I’m going to go for a Brooklyn lager clone ( from byo) probably with diamond Yeast and ferment 18c (65c) for 10 days to two weeks. Cold crash then closed transfer to keg where it can continue to cold crash /condition in my serving fridge at about 5c (40f) a month 0r so. Basically exactly how I treat pale ales and IPAs.

 

[eliastheodosis]

Okay, two week update on the Novalager test batch. Proper pour into a proper glass this time. The recipe and everything is up above on this same page. Link for the extremely lazy.

The initial impression is that the yeast is pretty neutral. The first thing I notice is the malt flavor coming through. The typical light bread and nuttiness that I expect to get from these malts was prominent on the first sips.

After the first sip or two I get past that and pick up a light/medium, but definitely noticeable, ester profile. The apple didn't go away but it's not overwhelming at all. Definitely more green apple than red, though. There is a slight acidic touch that makes it come across as very lightly, pleasantly sour. After that is a tropical banana/melon flavor and then what I would describe as something between slightly unripe strawberry and rose. None of the flavors were overwhelming at all but the second two (banana/melon and strawberry/rose) were much more faint.

Overall, definitely a fruitier yeast at this temp than 34/70 or Diamond. The flavor worked pretty well, though, and wasn't so strong that it clashed with the malt or hops. I'm also surprised at how well it has cleaned up already. It was extremely drinkable and had a really satisfying finish. For an easy, quick turn lager I would definitely do it again without hesitation. I'll be interested to see if the esters are noticeable in a cold IPA but I'm sure they wouldn't trash it.

Here are a couple pics. Stupid condensation in the one but you can see in the other that it's pretty clear. The yeast is definitely a little powdery but not crazy.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

If you absolutely must drink while still suffering the after-effects of COVID, now might be the perfect time to reach way back in the cabinet and guzzle that bad bottle of liquor that you haven't opened at all for the past 10 years or whatever.

Personally, I use such times to eat large quantities of superfood vegetables like kale or whatever other crap my wife has in the fridge that no one ever eats.

You'd have thunk, but in reality it doesn't quite work like that, in the same way that I always get volunteered for unblocking toilets because they think "he's not being able to smell since 2020, he'll be fine" - unfortunately all the earthy, sewagey smells work just fine, it's all the "nice" ones like fruity esters that I can't...

I'm still trying to find cheap wine that may have all the wrong esters but still has decent mouthfeel as that's what I can appreciate - still haven't sussed it yet, must try some Pinotage some time as historically I've had a lot of problems with that.

 

[Clint Yeastwood]

I like excellent beer and excellent whiskey and brandy, but other than that, I have nearly no interest in drinking. Before I started brewing again, I used to go months without any alcohol.

 

[Christoff]

I just brewed a vienna lager and I am using s-23. I having dinner plans and I thought it would cool down quicker. It didn't. Its currently sitting around 70F and I am suppposed to leave the house in 20 min. Do I wait it out and potentially have the wort too cold by the time I get back or pitch now. I am worried it would be far too unhappy if I pitch at high 60's but I don't know much about this yeast as I've only used it the once. I did a starter this morning to give it a headstart as this is round #2 with it (I bottled last week). I'm guessing its been in the mid 60's for about 6 hours. The starter seems happy so far. I'm aiming for some esters, just wasn't going for a lot.

 

[sweetcell]

I just brewed a vienna lager and I am using s-23. I having dinner plans and I thought it would cool down quicker. It didn't. Its currently sitting around 70F and I am suppposed to leave the house in 20 min. Do I wait it out and potentially have the wort too cold by the time I get back or pitch now. I am worried it would be far too unhappy if I pitch at high 60's but I don't know much about this yeast as I've only used it the once. I did a starter this morning to give it a headstart as this is round #2 with it (I bottled last week). I'm guessing its been in the mid 60's for about 6 hours. The starter seems happy so far. I'm aiming for some esters, just wasn't going for a lot.

eek, just saw this - what did you do? how's it going?

i'm not a big fan of S-23 - the one time i used it for a WF, it took the longest to "clean up" as compared to other lager yeasts. after 6 months of lagering it was quite nice, but the others were drinkable within a few weeks.

 

[Christoff]

eek, just saw this - what did you do? how's it going?

i'm not a big fan of S-23 - the one time i used it for a WF, it took the longest to "clean up" as compared to other lager yeasts. after 6 months of lagering it was quite nice, but the others were drinkable within a few weeks.

I ended up pitching it. I waited until the abosolute last minute. We will see. I think my thermometer temp was off so I may have actually pitched it at the right temp, but to be honest I have no idea. I can't get any of my thermometers to line up. lol If my tilt is right, it was pitched at 67 which I am guessing isn't going to make the beer taste great. My fermometer read a lot lower so I was thinking after stirring it would have been somewhere in the middle. But given the thermometer issues I don't know. I am not super familiar with it so I guess I will learn why people don't ferment it at higher temps lol I did just buy a pack for a rice lager but your comments make me think I should use 34/70

We only have another month of cooler temps so hopefully it will clean up enough to drink

 

[seatazzz]

Just now tapped the WF lager I fermented with Lallemand Novalager. I accidentally overcarbed it (I still don't have my carbonation lids dialled in), but once you get past the foam it's a darned tasty beer. Not as 'crisp' as a traditional lager yeast, but very light and flavorful; used Cascade for bittering, and some Perle as late hops. Can't wait to see what this yeast does as a 2nd generation slurry on the next one.

 

[z-bob]

Just now tapped the WF lager I fermented with Lallemand Novalager. I accidentally overcarbed it (I still don't have my carbonation lids dialled in), but once you get past the foam it's a darned tasty beer. Not as 'crisp' as a traditional lager yeast, but very light and flavorful; used Cascade for bittering, and some Perle as late hops. Can't wait to see what this yeast does as a 2nd generation slurry on the next one.

I just got an email from Morebeer! yesterday about Lallemand Novalager and Farmhouse yeasts, and they both look interesting. Was your WF beer at least more lager-y (whatever that is) than Nottingham?

 

[eliastheodosis]

Just now tapped the WF lager I fermented with Lallemand Novalager. I accidentally overcarbed it (I still don't have my carbonation lids dialled in), but once you get past the foam it's a darned tasty beer. Not as 'crisp' as a traditional lager yeast, but very light and flavorful; used Cascade for bittering, and some Perle as late hops. Can't wait to see what this yeast does as a 2nd generation slurry on the next one.

How warm was your WF? Just curious because I ran it right around 58. I'll have to give it another taste tonight but I felt like it came out similar in crispness to other more traditional lager yeasts ran at that temp. Definitely agreed on the taste notes. Look forward to hearing more updates!

 

[seatazzz]

I just got an email from Morebeer! yesterday about Lallemand Novalager and Farmhouse yeasts, and they both look interesting. Was your WF beer at least more lager-y (whatever that is) than Nottingham?

I've been doing WF lagers for a couple of years now and have tried a few different 'traditional' lager yeasts. The best results I've gotten have been with Diamond, and I usually ferment around 64-66°. I haven't tried fermenting Notty at lager temperatures, so I can't comment on that. To me, this beer has the best characteristics of an ale and a lager; I'm getting good malt flavor, but it's also crisp like a lager, with none of the sulfur that Diamond can produce. I'm going to brew it again this weekend with the slurry from the first one, and see how it does that way. A word of caution, however; if you want a bright clear beer from it, prepare to wait a while. This has been in the keg for four days and I used gelatin for fining, and it's still kinda hazy.

 

[seatazzz]

How warm was your WF? Just curious because I ran it right around 58. I'll have to give it another taste tonight but I felt like it came out similar in crispness to other more traditional lager yeasts ran at that temp. Definitely agreed on the taste notes. Look forward to hearing more updates!

I fermented mine at 64°. It took about 12 hours to really take off, but once it did the action was frenetic. Krausen dropped in 3 days, I let it sit another 4 to clean up (no diacetyl rest, temperature stayed at 64°), then slowly took it down to 45° and left it there for 3 days. Thinking that for this yeast, pitching two packets might be the better call. Also noting here that I used gelatin when I kegged it, and four days in it's still not clear; so Lallemand's 'medium' flocculation rate is pretty accurate. I'm hoping a few more days in the keg sees it clear. I'm going to use the slurry this weekend in another one.

 

[eliastheodosis]

To me, this beer has the best characteristics of an ale and a lager; I'm getting good malt flavor, but it's also crisp like a lager, with none of the sulfur that Diamond can produce. I'm going to brew it again this weekend with the slurry from the first one, and see how it does that way. A word of caution, however; if you want a bright clear beer from it, prepare to wait a while. This has been in the keg for four days and I used gelatin for fining, and it's still kinda hazy.

I fermented mine at 64°. It took about 12 hours to really take off, but once it did the action was frenetic. Krausen dropped in 3 days, I let it sit another 4 to clean up (no diacetyl rest, temperature stayed at 64°), then slowly took it down to 45° and left it there for 3 days. Thinking that for this yeast, pitching two packets might be the better call. Also noting here that I used gelatin when I kegged it, and four days in it's still not clear; so Lallemand's 'medium' flocculation rate is pretty accurate. I'm hoping a few more days in the keg sees it clear. I'm going to use the slurry this weekend in another one.

Thanks for the update! Yeah, it seems like our notes are pretty well aligned. I crashed and hit it with gelatin and it didn't really clear until about the 2 week mark. It's definitely pretty powdery. Absolutely no sulfur that I could detect at any point.

I had a glass last night and it was pretty crisp but mine is also sitting at 7 weeks right now. I remember it being very drinkable at 2 weeks but maybe not quite this crisp. Still, it's light and let's the malt flavor through very well while still having a pleasant ester profile.

I pitched at 75 g/hl. Right in the middle of their recommended range. That would put you at over 1 pack at least for a typical 5 gal batch. It took a similar time to get going but wasn't quite frenetic at 58F. Steady and strong for sure, though. It took a little over three days before it drastically slowed. Then I let it drift up to 60F and sit for 4 more days too. No issues with diacetyl. It's supposed to be a much lower diacetyl producer than Diamond as well.

Let us know how your slurry experiments work out!

 

[eliastheodosis]

Was your WF beer at least more lager-y (whatever that is) than Nottingham?

I haven't tried fermenting Notty at lager temperatures, so I can't comment on that

I just played around with this on a recent beer. It's an Irish Red Ale/Lager thing. I figured it couldn't go wrong no matter how it turned out. I've run Notty in the higher 60s for milds and a few others but never colder until now.

@z-bob, did you try this yourself? What temp and what was your experience? Sounds like the experience was not so...lager-y

I ran mine right around 57-58 and then let rise some to finish up. It's been conditioning for three weeks now and will be tapped as soon as I kick the scwarzbier. I can report back here with the recipe and feedback if people are interested.

 

[z-bob]

@z-bob, did you try this yourself? What temp and what was your experience? Sounds like the experience was not so...lager-y

No I did not. I've only brewed one WF and that was with 34/70; I just opened the first bottle last night. (it's good) I have used Nottingham before in a pale ale, and it was very clean. I've heard of people using Notty in pseudo-lagers, and that's not hard to imagine.

 

[Miraculix]

I've fermented notti rather cold, it's clean, but still ale character if you ask me. To me 3470 fermented at room temperature tastes much more lager-like than a cold fermented Nottingham.

 

[eliastheodosis]

No I did not. I've only brewed one WF and that was with 34/70; I just opened the first bottle last night. (it's good) I have used Nottingham before in a pale ale, and it was very clean. I've heard of people using Notty in pseudo-lagers, and that's not hard to imagine.

I've fermented notti rather cold, it's clean, but still ale character if you ask me. To me 3470 fermented at room temperature tastes much more lager-like than a cold fermented Nottingham.

Thank you both. Yeah, my experience with Notty at slightly higher temps is that it's pretty clean. It's helpful to hear that it's not as lager-like at cold temps as a lager yeast at warmer temps. I'll post back with how the beer comes out.

@z-bob, I'm glad to hear that your first lager came out well!

 

[seatazzz]

Update on the Novalager WF lager (the new 'it-girl' in the yeast world). Finally clearing out nicely, not that I care if my beer is bright and clear; if it tastes good, I'm good. Unless it's going to competition, then I care because the judges do. Few more days in and I'm getting a more lager-like taste from it as well. And I just brewed up another beer using the slurry from the first one, a simple grain bill of 9lbs two-row and 1lb of Munich 10, with Cascade for bittering and Comet for late hops. Fresh dry yeast lagged about 12 hours, eager to see how an overpitch of slurry does. Husband sometimes complains about the yeast jars in the fridge, but complaints stop when he sees how little I spend on said yeast. Going to take this batch of yeast out to at least four generations to see how it does.

 

[balrog]

Update on the Novalager WF lager (the new 'it-girl' in the yeast world). Finally clearing out nicely, not that I care if my beer is bright and clear; if it tastes good, I'm good. Unless it's going to competition, then I care because the judges do. Few more days in and I'm getting a more lager-like taste from it as well. And I just brewed up another beer using the slurry from the first one, a simple grain bill of 9lbs two-row and 1lb of Munich 10, with Cascade for bittering and Comet for late hops. Fresh dry yeast lagged about 12 hours, eager to see how an overpitch of slurry does. Husband sometimes complains about the yeast jars in the fridge, but complaints stop when he sees how little I spend on said yeast. Going to take this batch of yeast out to at least four generations to see how it does.

It’s been 2.5 hrs. Has it started????

 

[Miraculix]

Are we there yet?

 

[seatazzz]

It’s been 2.5 hrs. Has it started????

You decide.....

 

[balrog]

You decide.....

Seems like a "yes". Why do you have a tube into the fermenting beer?

 

[eliastheodosis]

Seems like a "yes". Why do you have a tube into the fermenting beer?

I'm betting that's the tube for the floating dip. Looks like it's probably the Anvil Junior so it would make sense in that case.

You decide.....

Looks great and I appreciate the updates. Here's my Nova lager from last night. Clear as can be now and tasting pretty crisp Glad yours is cleaning up well.

 

[seatazzz]

Seems like a "yes". Why do you have a tube into the fermenting beer?

Floating dip tube. Not an Anvil Junior but a modified Fermonster with a pressure lid on it. Going very lodo on this guy. When it's time to crash I'll give it a little blast of co2 and let it rip. And kegging is a breeze.

 

[HutBrew]

My first experience with NovaLager:

Brewed an “Ultra” clone last Saturday (3/18) with:

7lb pils
1/4lb melanoidan
5oz dextrose

I hit it with ~5g of Glucoamylase at the mash, at 140*F for 45m- stepped to 152*F for another 45m- finished at 170*F and sparged.

30m boil and got ~1.041 OG added a triple dose of Wyeast Nutrients.

Got 5.25gal into the fermenter, and added another ~5-10g of Glucoamylase.
Temperature was at ~56*F in the basement

Edit* Fermented under pressure ~7-10psi

5 days later it was at 1.016 and I moved it upstairs to warm up (~68*F)

Today (8 days after pitching NovaLager) it is at 1.001 and I’m going to call it as the Final Gravity.
According to Brewersfriend abv calculator this is something like 97% attenuation- I usually get ~77%-83% without glucoamylase and regular lager strains.

Hitting it with DualFine (kiesosol /chitosan) today and hoping it’s kegged and served by April 1st.

Hydro sample is, well, decent! It was so cloying 3 days ago I was worried, but the temp boost finished it up a little TOO well. The mouthfeel is just like water, with a nice touch of beer flavor, and no hints of hot fusels/esters like I’ve had before when rushing (with other yeast strains). The alcohol taste is pretty well muted considering it’s over 5% and there’s only a little flavor to conceal the alcohol.

I’ll update in a few days when it gets served to the friends.

Pre and post fermentation hydro samples (both at around 70*F)

 

[rtstrider]

Have there been good results with warm fermenting WLP830? If so what was your experience and what temp did you ferment at?