Underpitching methods for English Bitter?

[eshea3]

Is that the pitching temp and then they let it ride?

 

[cire]

Is that the pitching temp and then they let it ride?

Yes indeed it is in many better breweries.

If you want a bland and near tasteless beer, or possibly one swamped by hops, then pitch cool and keep it cool. For a characterful beer with full range of flavors, pitch plenty and cool, then let the yeast's energy warm the fermenting wort, then attenuate it should it be in danger of getting too warm.

 

[eshea3]

Yes indeed it is in many better breweries.

If you want a bland and near tasteless beer, or possibly one swamped by hops, then pitch cool and keep it cool. For a characterful beer with full range of flavors, pitch plenty and cool, then let the yeast's energy warm the fermenting wort, then attenuate it should it be in danger of getting too warm.

Agreed, but was wondering if that is what the OP meant.

 

[tracer bullet]

I didn't really have a meaning, just the question. I'm on board w/ the warmer temps and have no desire to maintain 60-ish F. Just wanted to confirm how things were done.

There was a recent thread that had the gist of - Americans don't use nearly enough minerals when trying to make British beers, and I didn't want the yeast to be the same way (that, perhaps, Americans ferment too warm)!

Thanks!

 

[Broothru]

Yes indeed it is in many better breweries.

If you want a bland and near tasteless beer, or possibly one swamped by hops, then pitch cool and keep it cool. For a characterful beer with full range of flavors, pitch plenty and cool, then let the yeast's energy warm the fermenting wort, then attenuate it should it be in danger of getting too warm.

I had originally planned on doing a Hoch-Kurz step mash {:25 mins @ 62C/144F and :25 mins @ 70C/158F} which pretty much splits the difference between @eshea3 66C/151F and @Miraculix 65C/149F, so 150F 65-66C for :50 fits in that wheelhouse nicely. But I can help but think that separate Beta and Alpha amylase rests might capture the peaks of both enzymes better?

I appreciate the comments on fermentation temperature as well. I used A-09 Pub twice last year, once for a Kona Big Wave Blonde and a Jai Alai clone. Both were fermented at the low end of the recommended temperature. Both seemed to lack the aromas and flavors I'd hoped to get with Pub. Thanks @cire for the comments on a fix for that by favoring the high end of recommended fermentation temperature. I'll certainly follow that lead.

Cabin fever is starting to build around here. I need a break in the weather. Overnight lows in the single digit ain't gonna hack it for the way I brew.

 

[Miraculix]

I had originally planned on doing a Hoch-Kurz step mash {:25 mins @ 62C/144F and :25 mins @ 70C/158F} which pretty much splits the difference between @eshea3 66C/151F and @Miraculix 65C/149F, so 150F 65-66C for :50 fits in that wheelhouse nicely. But I can help but think that separate Beta and Alpha amylase rests might capture the peaks of both enzymes better?

I appreciate the comments on fermentation temperature as well. I used A-09 Pub twice last year, once for a Kona Big Wave Blonde and a Jai Alai clone. Both were fermented at the low end of the recommended temperature. Both seemed to lack the aromas and flavors I'd hoped to get with Pub. Thanks @cire for the comments on a fix for that by favoring the high end of recommended fermentation temperature. I'll certainly follow that lead.

Cabin fever is starting to build around here. I need a break in the weather. Overnight lows in the single digit ain't gonna hack it for the way I brew.

It might give you a tiny bit better attenuation if you do the 62/72 Hochkurz mash, but why? I did this often and after reading that nearly no tarditional British brewery does it, I tried the more common approach, which is usually 65-68C single infusion and believe it or not, I found out, it worked . So ne need to complicate things. If you want, you can do a mashout for foam positive glucoproteinformation. I wouldn't do more.

... actually, the 72C step would be also foam positive... so there is this plus for the step mash. But I guess you get the same result via the mashout, but I am not sure. I would need to further evaluate.

 

[Broothru]

It might give you a tiny bit better attenuation if you do the 62/72 Hochkurz mash, but why? I did this often and after reading that nearly no tarditional British brewery does it, I tried the more common approach, which is usually 65-68C single infusion and believe it or not, I found out, it worked . So ne need to complicate things. If you want, you can do a mashout for foam positive glucoproteinformation. I wouldn't do more.

... actually, the 72C step would be also foam positive... so there is this plus for the step mash. But I guess you get the same result via the mashout, but I am not sure. I would need to further evaluate.

Actually that makes sense. My thinking behind a Hoch-Kurz mash (I always do them for German lagers) was to capture more fermentables on the Beta rest but still be foam positive at 66C for Alpha amylase. But Beta is still active at 66C, just not as active as it is at 62C. I mash in at 55C and let the wort temperature rise (electric + recirculation) up to subsequent rests and mash out.

The rise from 55C to 66C takes about 15 minutes during which time Beta maximum (61C) is being "bracketed". So doughing-in at 55C and having the temperature rise to 65-68C for a single temperature :60 minute mash should accomplish a mash with adequate fermentables and plenty of body/mouthfeel. Mash-out at 70C to seal the deal. What's your opinion of adding invert to the wort. I've got four 1 pound tins of Lyle's Golden Syrup sitting idly by. Yea or Nay?

 

[DuncB]

Seems that Timothy Taylors do want a very attenuative wort.

Watching the Timothy Taylor brewery tour with the head brewer



at about 6 minutes he says that they mash in at 60 celsius or 150 and that the mash process can take about 5 hours. Not sure when that time starts or finishes though. Probably from water heating until the kettle is filled I guess.
Clearly they don't mash at that temp throughout and I did notice the valve that Peter opens was not reading 150.

So I'm not sure that we get the whole truth.

 

[cire]

I've listened to that video time and time again and cannot believe Timothy Taylor mash at 60C. I can only think he stumbled saying that. I've mashed at 60C and with their yeast, didn't produce a well bodied beer.

The 5 hours I can accept. A 90 minute mash followed by sparging for three and a half hours. I frequently have sugars left in the grains four hours after mashing in.

 

[DuncB]

@cire I agree looking at that gauge in freeze frame it looks much more like 170 F for the water which is nearly 77 celsius which is far hotter and that would probably be the wrong temp as well. Perhaps he meant to say 160 ( 71) and they get a lot of drop with the grain temp, after all it is the north of England. Or was he starting the sparge whilst talking about the beginning of the mash. 60 C is not 150 in old money either.
Eitherway it won't be a stepmash that's for sure!

 

[DonT]

Just kegged my first ESB. I used David Heaths recipe with Voss Kveik and his water profile. Not sure if it needs more time to condition but it doesn't seem to taste right. It finished at 1.010... it tastes earthy, a little dry, moderate bitterness but not from hops, seems to be a roasty bitterness from the malts. I was expecting a sweeter more malt forward taste. I have another version using a different yeast and recipe I'm going to compare to in the next few days.... I've never had an ESB before so don't have anything to compare it to.

I did an ESB with Voss and it tasted weird too. I couldn't put my finger on what I was tasting but it was undrinkable. Drain pour....

 

[DuncB]

Voss can be like that apparently. Some report it changes when you've kept it a while / mellows.
Not my go to kveik and not a choice for me for a bitter beer.

 

[UdonPete]

So, I have a yeast question generated by this topic, and relating to it, so here goes -

Let's say Imperial Pub A09 - how about a fermentation temperature? I see 64 - 70 listed, and we know typically warmer is fruiter (more estery anyhow), but have often see that the "real" breweries run closer to 60F?

I have used Lallenad London Yeast and it came out very well - together with Maris Otter as the base

 

[Craiginthecorn]

Just kegged my first ESB. I used David Heaths recipe with Voss Kveik and his water profile. Not sure if it needs more time to condition but it doesn't seem to taste right. It finished at 1.010... it tastes earthy, a little dry, moderate bitterness but not from hops, seems to be a roasty bitterness from the malts. I was expecting a sweeter more malt forward taste. I have another version using a different yeast and recipe I'm going to compare to in the next few days.... I've never had an ESB before so don't have anything to compare it to.

I think most of David's recipes are solid, but this one was a bit of a head scratcher for me, especially coming from a Brit. The use of kveik rather than traditional, reliable, highly flocculant English strains was the biggest issue. Second was the non-traditional inclusion of wheat. Lastly, the water profile had a super high level of mineral content. I use another profile which had similar chloride:sulfate ratios, but overall much lower levels of minerals. I use 1968 and my Best Bitter is malty, but not sweet, with an appropriate level of bitterness for balance.

 

[Miraculix]

Actually that makes sense. My thinking behind a Hoch-Kurz mash (I always do them for German lagers) was to capture more fermentables on the Beta rest but still be foam positive at 66C for Alpha amylase. But Beta is still active at 66C, just not as active as it is at 62C. I mash in at 55C and let the wort temperature rise (electric + recirculation) up to subsequent rests and mash out.

The rise from 55C to 66C takes about 15 minutes during which time Beta maximum (61C) is being "bracketed". So doughing-in at 55C and having the temperature rise to 65-68C for a single temperature :60 minute mash should accomplish a mash with adequate fermentables and plenty of body/mouthfeel. Mash-out at 70C to seal the deal. What's your opinion of adding invert to the wort. I've got four 1 pound tins of Lyle's Golden Syrup sitting idly by. Yea or Nay?

Definitely yay! Balance out the crystal with it! My best recipe so far had 5% medium crystal and 10% Lyle's golden sirup in it. I actually did a step mash with that one as well. 55C for 15min, 62C for 30 min, 72C for 30 min and 77c for 15 min. Had great foam and was my best beer so far.

edit: Beta is actually even more active at 66C than at 62C, it just derades much quicker at the higher temperature. But one might wonder if that degration is actually affecting the result as most of the starch is already converted after a short amount of time.

 

[Miraculix]

I think most of David's recipes are solid, but this one was a bit of a head scratcher for me, especially coming from a Brit. The use of kveik rather than traditional, reliable, highly flocculant English strains was the biggest issue. Second was the non-traditional inclusion of wheat. Lastly, the water profile had a super high level of mineral content. I use another profile which had similar chloride:sulfate ratios, but overall much lower levels of minerals. I use 1968 and my Best Bitter is malty, but not sweet, with an appropriate level of bitterness for balance.

View attachment 757872

You are from the US, aren't you? The water numbers they use across the pond might seem to be extreme, but it is actually true that most of the British beers have high to very high mineral levels in the water they are brewed with. SO4 above 200 and Ca and Cl in the same range are quite normal, some might say necessary.

 

[McMullan]

Thou shalt not listen to notorious double-glazing salesmen claiming to be master brewers on YouTube.

 

[cire]

@cire I agree looking at that gauge in freeze frame it looks much more like 170 F for the water which is nearly 77 celsius which is far hotter and that would probably be the wrong temp as well. Perhaps he meant to say 160 ( 71) and they get a lot of drop with the grain temp, after all it is the north of England. Or was he starting the sparge whilst talking about the beginning of the mash. 60 C is not 150 in old money either.
Eitherway it won't be a stepmash that's for sure!

Agreed.

Whatever they do, they won't mash at 60C. They are in the North, sitting on one side of the Pennine Hills, so for a lot of the year the grain will not be warm before being fed into their Steel's Masher. Might anyone think boiling on a English hill might be at low temperature, the Pennines are not high mountains and they boil under pressure at a higher temperature than most of us can achieve.

Well modified malt has been available to British brewers for a very long time. In the last century or so, some brewers would underlet their traditional thick mash with a quantity of hotter liquor, but in no way can that be considered a stepped mash. I believe Timothy Taylor still contract selected farmers near the east coast and Scottish/English border to grow their Golden Promise Barley, then have Simpson's malt it to a particular specification.

 

[DuncB]

@cire
I agree it's Golden Promise and the water, I won't add my salts by the bucket load to my mash, more of an eggcupful at the most.

 

[cire]

I think most of David's recipes are solid, but this one was a bit of a head scratcher for me, especially coming from a Brit. The use of kveik rather than traditional, reliable, highly flocculant English strains was the biggest issue. Second was the non-traditional inclusion of wheat. Lastly, the water profile had a super high level of mineral content. I use another profile which had similar chloride:sulfate ratios, but overall much lower levels of minerals. I use 1968 and my Best Bitter is malty, but not sweet, with an appropriate level of bitterness for balance.

View attachment 757872

Most British towns and cities known for their breweries and beers before the days of RO systems, not that long ago, had water supplies vastly more mineral rich that those figures. My water has more than double the TDS of those and I live in a brewing town.

You can't brew a decent pale beer with 126 ppm HCO3. That could be 50 ppm, but only if the calcium level was around 200 ppm.

 

[cire]

@cire
I agree it's Golden Promise and the water, I won't add my salts by the bucket load to my mash, more of an eggcupful at the most.

Is that video the one saying they add most of the salts to the water and the throw a large bowlful into the mash as that is tradition. I do accept they use less salts than most breweries, but much more than American suggested levels.

 

[eshea3]

Seems that Timothy Taylors do want a very attenuative wort.

Watching the Timothy Taylor brewery tour with the head brewer



at about 6 minutes he says that they mash in at 60 celsius or 150 and that the mash process can take about 5 hours. Not sure when that time starts or finishes though. Probably from water heating until the kettle is filled I guess.
Clearly they don't mash at that temp throughout and I did notice the valve that Peter opens was not reading 150.

So I'm not sure that we get the whole truth.

There's a lot of time devoted to lautering and running off wort in the volume that a professional brewery does.

 

[Craiginthecorn]

Most British towns and cities known for their breweries and beers before the days of RO systems, not that long ago, had water supplies vastly more mineral rich that those figures. My water has more than double the TDS of those and I live in a brewing town.

You can't brew a decent pale beer with 126 ppm HCO3. That could be 50 ppm, but only if the calcium level was around 200 ppm.

With my next iteration of my Best Bitter, I will try much higher levels of minerals. Always striving for incremental improvement.

 

[Broothru]

@cire
I agree it's Golden Promise and the water, I won't add my salts by the bucket load to my mash, more of an eggcupful at the most.

Maris is getting incorporated more and more into my recipes, at least American pales. I used Golden Promise quite a few years ago as a sub for pale ale malt, but I can't recall much about that particular beer. Recently I ordered 10# to try as a comparison to MO in similar recipes, likely a Best Bitter (11B), Common Bitter (11A), or British Golden Ale (12A). What would be your suggestions for showcasing the differences between the grains? I'm assuming that a British Ale yeast with lower esters or A09 Pub at lower fermentation temperature would be best to allow the grain differences to express themselves. Probably will bitter with a light hand using Northdown and EKG at 25~30 IBUs, and Burtonize the mash water. Sound about right?

 

[cire]

There's a lot of time devoted to lautering and running off wort in the volume that a professional brewery does.

Indeed that is so in breweries that have hung on to traditions and some of the newer setups. What at first might seem excessive or shortsighted by we amateurs can be very different in a commercial environment.

Breweries, like Timothy Taylor, have large capacity mash tuns with pro rata subsequent vessels. It's all very well for us to add a bit extra malt to hedge inefficiency, but the professional brewery with demand to satisfy will fill the mash tun full. We can twice mill our grains and squeeze the last drop of wort from the grains to improve extract, just leave the beer longer to clear, but the commercial brewery has neither space, tankage nor the cash to store an extra 2 weeks of beer.

An extra 2 or 3 hours at the start of the process can make cheaper and with shiftwork allow double brewdays. The malt is just cracked, not pulverized. Conversion takes a little longer, but wort flow is enhanced for higher extraction and clear wort. Many breweries do mash for only 60 minutes, but with no commercial sense for a large scale, full volume mash tun, sparging is essential with extraction efficiency inversely proportional to speed.

Then there is a vital question. We know malt can be converted to sugar in less than 60 minutes, but does all that happens in the mash tun complete in 60 minutes? I once asked Graham Wheeler, "What happens in the time after after malt conversion?" He paused for a brief moment and replied, "The most important bit."

Maris is getting incorporated more and more into my recipes, at least American pales. I used Golden Promise quite a few years ago as a sub for pale ale malt, but I can't recall much about that particular beer. Recently I ordered 10# to try as a comparison to MO in similar recipes, likely a Best Bitter (11B), Common Bitter (11A), or British Golden Ale (12A). What would be your suggestions for showcasing the differences between the grains? I'm assuming that a British Ale yeast with lower esters or A09 Pub at lower fermentation temperature would be best to allow the grain differences to express themselves. Probably will bitter with a light hand using Northdown and EKG at 25~30 IBUs, and Burtonize the mash water. Sound about right?

I have found Golden Promise at its best in beers with little additional malts. What flavors it gives are easily masked by darker grains in particular. It stands out in TT Landlord, but would be largely lost in Black Sheep Bitter. I'd be inclined to use GP with some Flaked Maize, a lighter crystal malt and #1 Invert.

Marris Otter is still a winner and an all rounder, but its days are numbered. New varieties, claimed to be suitable for both brewers and distillers are on the horizon.

It's no good asking me about JCBP styles, I don't like the idea of corralling beers into a restricted range. It is the bit of extras that can take a good beer into another league. I don't enter BJCP contests, my beers are out of style. Don't worry about esters, they add the "je ne sais quoi", not dominate a brew except when too warm in the early stages of fermentation or when brewing something strong with a yeast not up to the job.

Northdown and EKG are wonderful, just that EKG is better when late. Don't Burtonize for Landlord, it is chloride forward.

 

[Broothru]

I have found Golden Promise at its best in beers with little additional malts. What flavors it gives are easily masked by darker grains in particular. It stands out in TT Landlord, but would be largely lost in Black Sheep Bitter. I'd be inclined to use GP with some Flaked Maize, a lighter crystal malt and #1 Invert.

Marris Otter is still a winner and an all rounder, but its days are numbered. New varieties, claimed to be suitable for both brewers and distillers are on the horizon.

It's no good asking me about JCBP styles, I don't like the idea of corralling beers into a restricted range. It is the bit of extras that can take a good beer into another league. I don't enter BJCP contests, my beers are out of style. Don't worry about esters, they add the "je ne sais quoi", not dominate a brew except when too warm in the early stages of fermentation or when brewing something strong with a yeast not up to the job.

Northdown and EKG are wonderful, just that EKG is better when late. Don't Burtonize for Landlord, it is chloride forward.

Thanks so much for the suggestions and data points. Indeed, inspiration came @Miraculix recipe for a Best Golden Ale with GP, some Crisp light crystal, Lyle's Golden Syrup and a tiny bit of torrified wheat/flaked maize adjunct, with the last three fermentables far in the background. Northdown for bittering, EKG for the late hops.

I may do parallel brews with the sole variable being MO verses GP. When I ordered the GP the descriptive writeup specifically stated that distilling was one use of the grain, though not so for Maris. It's my understanding that both are early Spring grain varietals and are both floor malted traditionally, at least by Thomas Fawcett. I'm anxious to brew them both to compare.

 

[cire]

Thanks so much for the suggestions and data points. Indeed, inspiration came @Miraculix recipe for a Best Golden Ale with GP, some Crisp light crystal, Lyle's Golden Syrup and a tiny bit of torrified wheat/flaked maize adjunct, with the last three fermentables far in the background. Northdown for bittering, EKG for the late hops.

I may do parallel brews with the sole variable being MO verses GP. When I ordered the GP the descriptive writeup specifically stated that distilling was one use of the grain, though not so for Maris. It's my understanding that both are early Spring grain varietals and are both floor malted traditionally, at least by Thomas Fawcett. I'm anxious to brew them both to compare.

There will be many more here, better informed on malted barley than me. My interest in GP dates back for more than 30 years, mostly because I live near to where it grows best and it was then easy for me to get my supplies from a local brewer who was supplied by Simpson's.

Marris Otter is a winter barley. I have found it more consistent than GP, but to be honest, I mostly buy cheaper barleys as most of my brews don't demand a specific malt to make them what they are.

A warning about Golden Syrup, it is made to be used in cooking, so adds flavor. It isn't strong, but it doesn't taste the same as inverted brewing sugar. I am finding myself following the many inspirational topics began by @Miraculix and confess to being frequently confused as to which thread I'm in, but there was one in recent days that described a way of making invert sugar which was exceedingly close to the method I use. If you've seen that, I'd suggest you give it a try for future brews while using the Golden Syrup for this.

Good luck, hope all goes well with your brew. My next go will be a Golden Ale and I'm hoping to provide a full writeup on that wonderful thread.

 

[Broothru]

There will be many more here, better informed on malted barley than me. My interest in GP dates back for more than 30 years, mostly because I live near to where it grows best and it was then easy for me to get my supplies from a local brewer who was supplied by Simpson's.

Marris Otter is a winter barley. I have found it more consistent than GP, but to be honest, I mostly buy cheaper barleys as most of my brews don't demand a specific malt to make them what they are.

A warning about Golden Syrup, it is made to be used in cooking, so adds flavor. It isn't strong, but it doesn't taste the same as inverted brewing sugar. I am finding myself following the many inspirational topics began by @Miraculix and confess to being frequently confused as to which thread I'm in, but there was one in recent days that described a way of making invert sugar which was exceedingly close to the method I use. If you've seen that, I'd suggest you give it a try for future brews while using the Golden Syrup for this.

Good luck, hope all goes well with your brew. My next go will be a Golden Ale and I'm hoping to provide a full writeup on that wonderful thread.

Look forward to reading about your writeup.

 

[Miraculix]

I never had the "real deal" invert sugar, so I cannot really tell if the homemade stovetop version of it is closer, or lyle's golden syrup. Both have worked for me so far, but they are definitely different. I do not know if one would be able to find a difference in the beer when doing a direct comparison though.

 

[eshea3]

I never had the "real deal" invert sugar, so I cannot really tell if the homemade stovetop version of it is closer, or lyle's golden syrup. Both have worked for me so far, but they are definitely different. I do not know if one would be able to find a difference in the beer when doing a direct comparison though.

There is now on the market in the US an invert sugar called Becker's Brewing Sugars. I have used it (primarily in my mild), but it is quite expensive at over $8 per pound. It is also available only from certain vendors.

https://www.homebrewing.org/Beckers...BeaShyg3PdkoFiaNjGtjG83cVGP0lR-RoChsUQAvD_BwE