I did an ESB with Voss and it tasted weird too. I couldn't put my finger on what I was tasting but it was undrinkable. Drain pour....
Underpitching methods for English Bitter?
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I did an ESB with Voss and it tasted weird too. I couldn't put my finger on what I was tasting but it was undrinkable. Drain pour....
DuncB
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Voss can be like that apparently. Some report it changes when you've kept it a while / mellows.
Not my go to kveik and not a choice for me for a bitter beer.
Not my go to kveik and not a choice for me for a bitter beer.
I have used Lallenad London Yeast and it came out very well - together with Maris Otter as the base
Craiginthecorn
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I think most of David's recipes are solid, but this one was a bit of a head scratcher for me, especially coming from a Brit. The use of kveik rather than traditional, reliable, highly flocculant English strains was the biggest issue. Second was the non-traditional inclusion of wheat. Lastly, the water profile had a super high level of mineral content. I use another profile which had similar chloride:sulfate ratios, but overall much lower levels of minerals. I use 1968 and my Best Bitter is malty, but not sweet, with an appropriate level of bitterness for balance.
Definitely yay! Balance out the crystal with it! My best recipe so far had 5% medium crystal and 10% Lyle's golden sirup in it. I actually did a step mash with that one as well. 55C for 15min, 62C for 30 min, 72C for 30 min and 77c for 15 min. Had great foam and was my best beer so far.
edit: Beta is actually even more active at 66C than at 62C, it just derades much quicker at the higher temperature. But one might wonder if that degration is actually affecting the result as most of the starch is already converted after a short amount of time.
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You are from the US, aren't you? The water numbers they use across the pond might seem to be extreme, but it is actually true that most of the British beers have high to very high mineral levels in the water they are brewed with. SO4 above 200 and Ca and Cl in the same range are quite normal, some might say necessary.
Agreed.
Whatever they do, they won't mash at 60C. They are in the North, sitting on one side of the Pennine Hills, so for a lot of the year the grain will not be warm before being fed into their Steel's Masher. Might anyone think boiling on a English hill might be at low temperature, the Pennines are not high mountains and they boil under pressure at a higher temperature than most of us can achieve.
Well modified malt has been available to British brewers for a very long time. In the last century or so, some brewers would underlet their traditional thick mash with a quantity of hotter liquor, but in no way can that be considered a stepped mash. I believe Timothy Taylor still contract selected farmers near the east coast and Scottish/English border to grow their Golden Promise Barley, then have Simpson's malt it to a particular specification.
DuncB
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Most British towns and cities known for their breweries and beers before the days of RO systems, not that long ago, had water supplies vastly more mineral rich that those figures. My water has more than double the TDS of those and I live in a brewing town.
You can't brew a decent pale beer with 126 ppm HCO3. That could be 50 ppm, but only if the calcium level was around 200 ppm.
Is that video the one saying they add most of the salts to the water and the throw a large bowlful into the mash as that is tradition. I do accept they use less salts than most breweries, but much more than American suggested levels.
There's a lot of time devoted to lautering and running off wort in the volume that a professional brewery does.
Craiginthecorn
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With my next iteration of my Best Bitter, I will try much higher levels of minerals. Always striving for incremental improvement.
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Maris is getting incorporated more and more into my recipes, at least American pales. I used Golden Promise quite a few years ago as a sub for pale ale malt, but I can't recall much about that particular beer. Recently I ordered 10# to try as a comparison to MO in similar recipes, likely a Best Bitter (11B), Common Bitter (11A), or British Golden Ale (12A). What would be your suggestions for showcasing the differences between the grains? I'm assuming that a British Ale yeast with lower esters or A09 Pub at lower fermentation temperature would be best to allow the grain differences to express themselves. Probably will bitter with a light hand using Northdown and EKG at 25~30 IBUs, and Burtonize the mash water. Sound about right?
Indeed that is so in breweries that have hung on to traditions and some of the newer setups. What at first might seem excessive or shortsighted by we amateurs can be very different in a commercial environment.
Breweries, like Timothy Taylor, have large capacity mash tuns with pro rata subsequent vessels. It's all very well for us to add a bit extra malt to hedge inefficiency, but the professional brewery with demand to satisfy will fill the mash tun full. We can twice mill our grains and squeeze the last drop of wort from the grains to improve extract, just leave the beer longer to clear, but the commercial brewery has neither space, tankage nor the cash to store an extra 2 weeks of beer.
An extra 2 or 3 hours at the start of the process can make cheaper and with shiftwork allow double brewdays. The malt is just cracked, not pulverized. Conversion takes a little longer, but wort flow is enhanced for higher extraction and clear wort. Many breweries do mash for only 60 minutes, but with no commercial sense for a large scale, full volume mash tun, sparging is essential with extraction efficiency inversely proportional to speed.
Then there is a vital question. We know malt can be converted to sugar in less than 60 minutes, but does all that happens in the mash tun complete in 60 minutes? I once asked Graham Wheeler, "What happens in the time after after malt conversion?" He paused for a brief moment and replied, "The most important bit."
I have found Golden Promise at its best in beers with little additional malts. What flavors it gives are easily masked by darker grains in particular. It stands out in TT Landlord, but would be largely lost in Black Sheep Bitter. I'd be inclined to use GP with some Flaked Maize, a lighter crystal malt and #1 Invert.
Marris Otter is still a winner and an all rounder, but its days are numbered. New varieties, claimed to be suitable for both brewers and distillers are on the horizon.
It's no good asking me about JCBP styles, I don't like the idea of corralling beers into a restricted range. It is the bit of extras that can take a good beer into another league. I don't enter BJCP contests, my beers are out of style. Don't worry about esters, they add the "je ne sais quoi", not dominate a brew except when too warm in the early stages of fermentation or when brewing something strong with a yeast not up to the job.
Northdown and EKG are wonderful, just that EKG is better when late. Don't Burtonize for Landlord, it is chloride forward.
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Thanks so much for the suggestions and data points. Indeed, inspiration came @Miraculix recipe for a Best Golden Ale with GP, some Crisp light crystal, Lyle's Golden Syrup and a tiny bit of torrified wheat/flaked maize adjunct, with the last three fermentables far in the background. Northdown for bittering, EKG for the late hops.
I may do parallel brews with the sole variable being MO verses GP. When I ordered the GP the descriptive writeup specifically stated that distilling was one use of the grain, though not so for Maris. It's my understanding that both are early Spring grain varietals and are both floor malted traditionally, at least by Thomas Fawcett. I'm anxious to brew them both to compare.
There will be many more here, better informed on malted barley than me. My interest in GP dates back for more than 30 years, mostly because I live near to where it grows best and it was then easy for me to get my supplies from a local brewer who was supplied by Simpson's.
Marris Otter is a winter barley. I have found it more consistent than GP, but to be honest, I mostly buy cheaper barleys as most of my brews don't demand a specific malt to make them what they are.
A warning about Golden Syrup, it is made to be used in cooking, so adds flavor. It isn't strong, but it doesn't taste the same as inverted brewing sugar. I am finding myself following the many inspirational topics began by @Miraculix and confess to being frequently confused as to which thread I'm in, but there was one in recent days that described a way of making invert sugar which was exceedingly close to the method I use. If you've seen that, I'd suggest you give it a try for future brews while using the Golden Syrup for this.
Good luck, hope all goes well with your brew. My next go will be a Golden Ale and I'm hoping to provide a full writeup on that wonderful thread.
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Look forward to reading about your writeup.
I never had the "real deal" invert sugar, so I cannot really tell if the homemade stovetop version of it is closer, or lyle's golden syrup. Both have worked for me so far, but they are definitely different. I do not know if one would be able to find a difference in the beer when doing a direct comparison though.
There is now on the market in the US an invert sugar called Becker's Brewing Sugars. I have used it (primarily in my mild), but it is quite expensive at over $8 per pound. It is also available only from certain vendors.
https://www.homebrewing.org/Beckers...BeaShyg3PdkoFiaNjGtjG83cVGP0lR-RoChsUQAvD_BwE
Absent the Lyle's, that.s pretty much my Yorkshire Bitter, which I stole from here. Dann Paquette's Guidelines for a Proper Bitter
Crystals? If so that sounds pretty easy to use.
I've been on the fence adding somethign like this to an ESB. Care to describe what it adds? Caramel, toffee, raisins, somethign altogether different? Do you see much effect on FG or dryness? Or does it actually do the opposite and not dry the beer?
Likely no crystals. Resistance to crystalization being one feature of invert sugar.
Depending on color. Caramel, toffee, fruitiness, dark stone fruit. Even the really dark stuff I made for an imperial stout, nothing raisiny like Special B.
Being thoroughly fermentable, it does dry out the beer a bit. Balancing the cloying residual sweetness crystal brings.
In many (functional) ways it's just another sugar addition, but it brings so much more flavor than straight sucrose (table, raw, cane) or glucose (corn).
Northern_Brewer
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Citation needed. A bit of wheat is very much traditional to help the head on beers served up north through sparklers, and some breweries even down south use up to 10% :
https://barclayperkins.blogspot.com/2018/02/lets-brew-wednesday-1971-boddington-ip.html
https://barclayperkins.blogspot.com/2013/02/eldridge-pope-grists-in-1964.html
It's not "super-high", the problem is with USian brewers who use water with "super-low" levels of minerals. Any style that is intended to be served on cask needs at least 100ppm calcium to make sure the yeast drops properly, and you should be suspicious of any source that recommends less than that for British styles. These numbers from one of the main British beer labs give you an idea of typical minerals in traditional British commercial brewing, although there's a trend towards a more chloride balance, particularly with modern hops.
https://www.thehomebrewforum.co.uk/...vous-about-mineral-levels.94723/#post-1044916
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No it's a syrup.
With the caveats that (1) my palette is not all that great, (2) I often change the grain bill slightly or (3) use a different yeast, I find it gives a depth of flavor without drying out the beer. I have gradually upped the amount of sugar to 1#. Latest iteration was:
6.8# of Simpson's GP
1# Becker's Invert #3
8 oz Briess Blond Roasted Oats
3 oz each of Briess Cramel 120, Coffee Kiln Malt and Fawcett Pale Chcolate.
Mashed at 156 for 60 minutes.
Fermented with Imperial Tartan at 66 for 3 days then pushed up to 68 for 2 additional before going to 70 for another 2 days.
Next iteration will use Simpson's DRC in lieu of the Briess Crystal and the Invert Sugar will be homemade.
Wasn't the DRC the one that instantly lowers one's voice into Isaac Hayes territory plus grows hair on your chest and head, instantly adds circumference to your biceps and makes your chest muscles double up in no time without any training?
I am also very curious about that one.
For that to happen to me I'll need to use a lot.monkeymath
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If the tale of the homebrewer's quest for the true fuller's yeast was told by M. Night Shyamalan...
... had to google that one
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Anything that'll take me fro
Anything that'll take me from "Micheal Jackson" down to Barry White territory, I'm willing to try!
My stock includes inverts #1, #2 and #3 made by the only remaining brewing sugar manufacturer in Britain, Ragus. It is my opinion that we cannot accurately replicate their product without a vast amount of work and some specialized equipment, but that we can produce something similar enough to enhance our beers enough to warrant the small necessary cost and effort.
Invert sugar is glucose and fructose in combination. Sucrose can be converted to invert by various methods, but a combination of heat and acid is the quickest, and the method used by Ragus, described in the earlier link. In basic terms, the higher the temperature and/or the lower the pH of a sucrose solution, the quicker inversion happens. Once inversion has completed by this method, it is necessary to slow/stop it by reducing temperature and/or raising pH, else the fructose and sucrose so produced will be modified to other substances. Ragus heat their sucrose (refined cane sugar) solution to 70C, when all sugar goes into solution, suggesting the ratio by weight will be, two parts sucrose to one part water. This temperature is then maintained, when acid is added to pH 1.6 and the mixture is stirred continuously. Samples are taken and measured in a polarimeter until refracted light reaches minus 20 degrees (why it is called inverted sugar). A base is then added to increase pH and substantially slow/stop the process.
A molecule of sucrose releases one of water when inverted, and sugar can be dissolved in newly converted invert. Ragus do this to create their different grades of brewing sugars. #1 will have added raw cane sugar, #2 some with more unrefined product while #3 will likely have almost pure molasses addition and this is when most American made inverts diverge from British.
I frequently read American advice to increase temperature to produce a darker invert sugar, which it does, but, it does by caramelizing inverted sugars rather than adding other flavors. In Britain if we want to darken a beer and add caramel flavors, we add Brewers Caramel.
I found it very difficult to hold a sugar solution at 70C and when I tried pH 1.6 while simmering, the converted sugars quickly degraded. Now I add enough acid when the sugar dissolves that would achieve pH 2.0. I then simmer for up to 5 minutes when the solution changes from clear to a soft/light yellow. At that point more sugar is added (5%) and mixed in before the heat is removed and a small amount of sodium bicarbonate is added. For #1 a light brown or white sugar, #2 a dark brown sugar and for #3 molasses or blackstrap or Black Treacle. A near heaped spoon of citric acid crystals will produce pH 2.0 in a mixture of a kg of cane sugar and 500 ml of low alkalinity water.
I would confirm the recipe you link is very currently typical of a UK brewed Bitter, including some from Yorkshire. A reason for the absence of invert sugar is the current cost and availability, particularly for smaller breweries. Currently a kg of refined cane sugar costs me 65 pence, about 90 cents, which overall is less expensive than the same weight of malt. It does take time to make, but it adds flavor that is not obtained from malt and makes a clearer beer.
I won't fault that beer recipe, it's great, just that i would use a little less crystal and add some inverted sugar.
DuncB
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Ya' got me there . I read his book, and it was a real Thriller!
. I read his book, and it was a real Thriller!
But isn't caramelization and maillard reactions exactly what we want, adding all the differen flavours? Your invert number 3 would be basically like adding glucose, fructose and ordinary molasses to a beer. Number 2 would be glucose fructose and less molasses than number 3 (brown sugar is sugar with molasses) and number 1 would be just glucose and fructose. That sounds just somehow wrong to me.
I made experiments with really dark unrefined sugar, basically dried molasses, and that one just tasted like molasses when inverted. But when continued to boil, that molasses flavour changed into something far more interesting, dark fruits, tobacco, it was a really beautiful mix of strong flavours that really benefitted a bitter. I tasted that one and instantly thought "yep, I want exactly that flavour in my bitter" while when I taste molasses, I think.. "ok, into my porridge you shall go, but not into my beer". Maybe the manufactorer, being the last one without competition, is just using a short cut? maybe other companies made it differently?
On the other hand, the head brewer of a Polish brewery I know told me that when he makes invert, he is basically doing what you are suggesting above, boiling it with acid till inverted and then adding a base. He says that the colour happens as soon as he adds the base, so there must be some reaction that is turning the sugars into something different there.
Much confusion remains...
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McMullan
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It's important not to confuse highly refined 'lab grade' sucrose derived from sugar beet with unrefined 'sucrose' derived from sugarcane. They're chalk and cheese. Beet sugar is used predominantly on the continent and cane sugar in Britain. In fact, I think Britain is the main market for cane sugar in Europe, thanks to Napoleon? There are a number of methods to invert sucrose and a given procedure depends on the brewer's aim. In addition to the off-the-shelf brewing sugars, I believe Ragus provide some traditional British breweries with specified recipes. When I was first persuaded to try inverted cane sugar for my British ales I found a lot of different procedures being described. I settled on Ron Pattinson's procedure, as it's straightforward and I like the result.
I found the following very interesting, indicating that indeed there was a base added later on in the process:
http://barclayperkins.blogspot.com/2017/12/inversion.html
You posted Rons recipe for invert somewhere... I forgot where it was, can you please link to it?
McMullan
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Thanks mate.
I just wanted to make sure if I remembered it correctly, that there is no base included in his recipe. The historical invert recipe I linked to above includes a base. Can you have a look when the book with the recipe was published? Maybe he didn't have the information from the brewery at the time of publishing. I will anyhow try to add some baking soda next time I make an invert, just to see what happens.
I actually could use some of my invert that I already made, I got them in glasses. I got some which are kind of between No. 1 and 2. Let's see what happens if I heat it up and add some baking soda.
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