Unboxing the Nano from CO Brewing

[prosperbrews]

everything working better with the smaller hoses etc in place?

Yes all is well. I can never get to full open on top of the grain bed so it’s never been an issue. The sight glass is a life saver to ensure you don’t starve the element. If I open it up too much on the top circulation, you can see the liquid level quickly drop in the sight glass which tells me to back it off. Once some mods are in place, I believe this system is very close to a perfect biab solution

 

[jabba11]

Yes all is well. I can never get to full open on top of the grain bed so it’s never been an issue. The sight glass is a life saver to ensure you don’t starve the element. If I open it up too much on the top circulation, you can see the liquid level quickly drop in the sight glass which tells me to back it off. Once some mods are in place, I believe this system is very close to a perfect biab solution

yes I miss my sight glass for nothing but this. I watch it from the top nowadays but Ive become pretty adept and using it in a manner that it doesn't happen much anymore. Anytime I do a new brew with a heavy grain load I watch it like a hawk though LOL

 

[jabba11]

My personal opinion is that the ss unitank is quite a bit better product than Spikes. 2 cents

"quite a but better"...meh I wouldn't go that far. Its mostly about the lid. I do prefer being able to lift off the lid. Other than the lid the build construction and capabilities are the same IMHO. The spike is definitely a step up from my SS Chronical but hell I pressure transfer etc from my chroinical too. The only thing I cant do with it is ferment at pressure. It also has bulkhead fittings on some parts but in 2 years these have NEVER been a problem for me. Spike is sending me a new gasket and Ill see if that helps but I am skeptical. They were quick to respond and attempt a fix. SS is very well known for this as well.

 

[jabba11]

Just had my element plug fail. Not sure what would have caused this. Anyone have any ideas?View attachment 571231

I do not know what would cause this but I would definitely seek help form an electrician before I plugged things back in, that looks like a fire waiting to happen or worse

 

[tofuguy]

There is a loose connection in that terminal. High resistance drove heat... That is the result.

 

[jabba11]

well first issue with my system. either the power supply or the topsflo is caput. Theres a little green light on my power supply. When I turn on the pump it starts flashing (usually its a steady green). not sure what but Ill start with the supply and go from there

 

[jabba11]

well, its not the power supply. I bought a new one, its doing the same thing as the old one. I sent CBS and email and am waiting to hear back. The pump was rated at 20k hours I doubt I got 1/100th of that. My system is two years old however so }I don't necessarily expect CBS to warranty it still the system is useless without a pump and a new one is 140 dollars... also at 2 years old its outside the TOPSFLO warranty as well as far as I can tell

 

[jabba11]

CBS didn't offer much help but honestly they don't have to as both my system and the pump are out of warranty. They don't even use the TD-5 in their systems anymore. I sent Topsflo a message but haven't heard back. I have a chugger and so IM waiting on some fittings to use that but I may end up buying a topsflo again in the future. Im really just trying to get the motor part as the head for the thing is perfectly fine so if I could find that somehow id say probably half the price of a new one. Not real happy to have to buy a 140 dollar part for the thing 2 years that was supposed to last 20k hours. I doubt I had 200 hours on it realistically.

 

[mcgimpkins]

So I don't have any experience with the Topsflo TD-5. I have a chugger pump that I've been using for years recently upgraded with the Blichmann RipTide Upgrade Kit. I've got to state from the convenience side of cleaning it as well as the ability to purge air and reduce cavitation, the RipTide head has been pretty useful and superior to a Chugger Pump.

Take my $0.02 however you like, but if I had to do it all over again and buy a new pump I would probably get a Blichmann RipTide.

 

[jabba11]

So I don't have any experience with the Topsflo TD-5. I have a chugger pump that I've been using for years recently upgraded with the Blichmann RipTide Upgrade Kit. I've got to state from the convenience side of cleaning it as well as the ability to purge air and reduce cavitation, the RipTide head has been pretty useful and superior to a Chugger Pump.

Take my $0.02 however you like, but if I had to do it all over again and buy a new pump I would probably get a Blichmann RipTide.

Ya I get that. But I have my system setup in a way that puts the pump directly inline and makes it a bit simpler. Im going to use my chugger in the interim but Im hoping I can simply get the motor from Topsflo but sadly I haven heard back from them

 

[cyclonebeer]

New question:

Are you folks fermenting in just a primary, or are you using a secondary? In my old 3V system, I got away from using a secondary fermenter because it was an extra step, and I did not perceive any difference in the finished product. I kept that same train of thought when I started brewing on my CBS rig, and just used a primary fermenter. Lately, I've been using a secondary fermenter and have been impressed with the results. I feel that this system is just destined to send a relatively "dirtier" wort out of the kettle into the fermenter. I don't use any kind of filter or trub trap between the kettle and fermenter. Even after a good whirlpool after chilling, a lot of crap is left in the kettle, but a lot of crap makes it's way into the fermenter. I always had thought cloudy wort was just an aesthetic thing - stuff would settle out, and all would be fine. Now, I'm starting to believe that getting the beer off of that trub / yeast cake and sending it to a secondary in a cleaner condition makes a difference. Anybody want to chime in on this?

 

[RockyMtnGT]

I don't have the Nano Brew system yet, but I've never used a secondary vessel. I ferment in bottling buckets with a SS ball valve. When fermentation is complete, I cold crash for 3-4 days, then transfer directly from the ball valve into the out side of the keg. Prior to that I filled the keg with Starsan, then pushed it out with C02. I also add gelatin to the keg before racking. After the first few pulls from the keg, the beer is crystal clear.

 

[Horseflesh]

While I haven't done secondary I am skeptical that it would have a big impact on clarity. Anything that falls to the bottom is out of the picture, right? So whether you transfer into a keg or a secondary, only what is still in solution will factor into clarity from that point on.

In other words, for a secondary to help clarity, you have to believe that the stuff on the bottom of the vessel has a clarity impact on the beer above it. Right? Add that doesn't seem likely to me. But like I said, I haven't done it myself.

 

[jabba11]

I do not secondary. The only time I would probably ever do one now is for a sour or something I was putting in very long term storage. that said I have conicals and the ability to dump trub but I rarely even do that. Additionally I can get very clean wort out of my system and have never had a problem getting my beers to clear.

 

[SoInBrew]

This may have been covered, somewhere in the 35 pages. I only went through about half of it. Is there a calculation or way to determine which spray nozzle to use based on entry water pressure? My house is about 40psi. I am thinking the 6gph nozzle, but haven't seen anything other than anecdotal info to support it.

 

[jabba11]

elegant solution to my pump issues. This actually works very well. I am concerned about the placement of the pump as water getting into the motor is a concern of course and I plan to build a shield to cover it soon. (chugger should really include a shield IMHO id pay an extra couple bucks for one). Flow rate is definitely better than the topsflo. CBS said they don't sell it anymore and include chuggers with their systems again. I also originally had built a box for my system to be on and plan to put that back in place soon to raise it up some so priming is less an issue.View media item 69234

 

[Horseflesh]

I have a couple of chuggers that I got with a pile of used stuff I bought. They are burly, but the Topsflow is much easier to handle and disassemble for cleaning. I prefer the Topsflow today while mine works... but if it craps out, I ain't gonna replace it.

 

[jabba11]

I have a couple of chuggers that I got with a pile of used stuff I bought. They are burly, but the Topsflow is much easier to handle and disassemble for cleaning. I prefer the Topsflow today while mine works... but if it craps out, I ain't gonna replace it.

if I could buy the topsflo motor ITSELF at a reduced cost I may go back to it. I mean if my chugger craps out at least I can buy the one with the plastic head and mount my stainless to it. Honestly the setup I created works pretty dang well though and I no longer have to worry about all the weight hanging on the fitting on the pot.

 

[prosperbrews]

Now that I’m 10 brews In on the CBS system, hoping we can get the conversation going on efficiency. I have my volumes and temperatures dialed in right now - no problems there. However, my efficiency has constantly been in the 60-65% range across all kinds of grain types - wheat beers, IPAs, cream ales, etc.

Again my temps are always spot on, I build my water profiles from scratch using RO water, and my PH has always been on point.

Additionally, I’ve tried crush sizes ranging from .030 to .045. I’ve tried double crushing the grains at .045. Nothing helps. Obviously, the tighter crushes impacts circulation. I always stir the hell out of the mash and then let it sit.

Finally, I’ve modded the system to use the ss brewtech mash manifold. I always mash for 90 minutes and do a mash out at 168f for 10 minutes. And still the best I can do is a sorry 65% efficiency. Anyone have any ideas? What are you seeing with your system?

 

[Horseflesh]

Do you mean brewhouse or mash efficiency?

Either way, my efficiency is also lower than I expected. 65-70% Brewhouse is typical, mash efficiency 70-75%. Occasionally I will get a couple more % points, not sure why, but I almost always miss my OG target by a few points.

Like you I hit my pH targets and use the Ss manifold. I also did tests and found I require a 90 minute mash, or I am throwing points away. I have tried stirring lots to not stirring at all, and it doesn't seem to make a difference.

I am stuck using the shop mill for now, but hearing that you're trying different gaps and still having trouble gives me second thoughts about getting my own mill.

I have the giant 20 gal kettle and only do 5 gallon batches, maybe mash thickness has something to do with it?

 

[Dockside_Brewing]

I have consistently been hitting mash efficiencies 70% to 75% and Brewhouse in the same range. I have been using a .043 crush but for my next brew later on today I am going to try .042 (Sweet Chocolate Stout), I use the SS manifold, RO water, ALWAYS 1lb of rice hulls and 2% Acidulated malt for PH target. I stir initially two times and then let it sit. My valve is wide open the entire mash and sometimes I will do a 90 minute mash to hit my numbers. I recently upgraded to the 25 gallon CBS pot and added a 1/2 bbl SS unitank to up production. One thing I did do was to measure the water temp coming out of the manifold. I found it was 2.5 degrees colder than what the probe was reading so I adjusted it in the set up so I have my manifold water right on target.

Anyone interested in a CBS 20 gallon pot and basket I have one for sale.

 

[prosperbrews]

Do you mean brewhouse or mash efficiency?

Either way, my efficiency is also lower than I expected. 65-70% Brewhouse is typical, mash efficiency 70-75%. Occasionally I will get a couple more % points, not sure why, but I almost always miss my OG target by a few points.

Like you I hit my pH targets and use the Ss manifold. I also did tests and found I require a 90 minute mash, or I am throwing points away. I have tried stirring lots to not stirring at all, and it doesn't seem to make a difference.

I am stuck using the shop mill for now, but hearing that you're trying different gaps and still having trouble gives me second thoughts about getting my own mill.

I have the giant 20 gal kettle and only do 5 gallon batches, maybe mash thickness has something to do with it?

I was referencing mash efficiency - so clearly I have some points to gain somewhere. I also use the 20 gallon kettle and do 5 gallon batches. My mash is always pretty thick as my grain bills are typically around 15-16 lbs with a lb of rice hulls to go along with it. Does a thicker mash impact conversion?

 

[prosperbrews]

I have consistently been hitting mash efficiencies 70% to 75% and Brewhouse in the same range. I have been using a .043 crush but for my next brew later on today I am going to try .042 (Sweet Chocolate Stout), I use the SS manifold, RO water, ALWAYS 1lb of rice hulls and 2% Acidulated malt for PH target. I stir initially two times and then let it sit. My valve is wide open the entire mash and sometimes I will do a 90 minute mash to hit my numbers. I recently upgraded to the 25 gallon CBS pot and added a 1/2 bbl SS unitank to up production. One thing I did do was to measure the water temp coming out of the manifold. I found it was 2.5 degrees colder than what the probe was reading so I adjusted it in the set up so I have my manifold water right on target.

Anyone interested in a CBS 20 gallon pot and basket I have one for sale.

I also set a -3 degree differential in the probe to account for differences in mash temp and below the basket. Provided I have good flow, my thermapen reads spot on by sticking it 6 inches into the mash at various locations.

 

[Dockside_Brewing]

I brewed 10 gallons of sweet chocolate stout today. I hit 80% mash effiency. Target was 1.084 And I hit 1.087. It was a #30 grain bill.

 

[Horseflesh]

Man, I can barely hit my predictions for a 1.050 brew, and efficiency is supposed to fall when you do high gravity... That's nuts!

 

[Dockside_Brewing]

I was pleasantly surprised I exceeded my target with such a high ABV beer. Only change on this brew was I went down to a .042 crush and performed a 90 minute mash. I think I am going to go down to .040 crush on the next brew which will be a 15 gallon Octoberfest (#32lb grain bill)

 

[prosperbrews]

I was pleasantly surprised I exceeded my target with such a high ABV beer. Only change on this brew was I went down to a .042 crush and performed a 90 minute mash. I think I am going to go down to .040 crush on the next brew which will be a 15 gallon Octoberfest (#32lb grain bill)

Are you sparging to get that mash efficiency? I believe I have narrowed down my low 60% efficiency issues. I have been doing mostly 6 gallon batches with 16lb grain bills. Because 3.5 gallons of water remains under the basket, my mash thickness is always pretty high, sometimes less than 1.25qt/lb of grain. This is further complicated by the fact that I use a steam condensor with a calculated boil off of .5 gallon per hour.

My theory is that if I do a traditional boil (1.5 gal/hr, and thus, increased amount of water to start), reduce the grain bill to target a 73% efficiency, and keep the crush at .42, I believe the higher grain to grist ratio and better lautering performance from a course crush will get me to 75%.

In theory, 10 gallon batches do better with efficiency due to the grain/grist ratio rising the higher you go.

 

[mcgimpkins]

Are you sparging to get that mash efficiency?

Yes try sparging. I usually put all my water in at once, heat it up to strike temp, then drain a gallon into a thermos before adding my basket. If I am brewing a 10 gallon batch it take 2 gallons. Run your mash and have it mash out, then pull your basket and once drained pour your thermos of hot water though it. I have not worried about grain to water ratios.

On a hand full of beers the mash was really thick and I worried about it backing up and exposing the element. In that scenario I poured in my water in the thermos and mashed as usual, then poured a gallon of cold filtered tap water in basket to sparge with. (There are a couple of articles stating that the temp of your sparge water does not matter if you as long as you have already performed a mashout.) I then had to extend a the boil for an hour to get rid of the extra water, however it gave me decent efficiency and I hit the numbers I was shooting for.

 

[Dockside_Brewing]

I usually do not sparge but I have withheld a gallon or two before. I run with the ss manifold valve wide open and the whirlpool valve closed 3/4 and keep my eye on the site glass to make sure the element is always underwater. I also have the steam condenser. On the 20 gallon nano it was a .8 gph boil off but on the 25 gallon kettle it is 1.8 gph. What do you use to measure your mash SG?

 

[prosperbrews]

I usually do not sparge but I have withheld a gallon or two before. I run with the ss manifold valve wide open and the whirlpool valve closed 3/4 and keep my eye on the site glass to make sure the element is always underwater. I also have the steam condenser. On the 20 gallon nano it was a .8 gph boil off but on the 25 gallon kettle it is 1.8 gph. What do you use to measure your mash SG?

I use a refractometer. I also run with the manifold fairly wide open. If I open it up too much the water shoots pretty high out of the larger holes, so I clamp it down a bit as to not create hot side aeration. Nonetheless, I’m still getting very good flow and keep an eye on the site glass which is a very good gauge on if your pumping faster then it can move through the grain bed.

 

[Horseflesh]

Because 3.5 gallons of water remains under the basket, my mash thickness is always pretty high, sometimes less than 1.25qt/lb of grain.

In a discussion elsewhere I was told that mash thickness should be calculated with the total water volume. Even though we have that huge dead space and the grain bed is thick, it's the total water volume that matters. Apparently?

When I started checking my conversion efficiency, I saw results that backed up that claim. Check out this table at BrauKaiser:

http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php/Understanding_Efficiency#Measuring_conversion_efficiency

You can check conversion efficiency by taking refractometer samples over time. When I have done this, it takes about 90 minutes to get close to the theoretical maximum gravity value in that table, using thickness calculated from the total water volume. If I used a thickness value that omitted the dead space liquid, I would expect my gravity to be much higher, right? But I have never observed that.

Because my conversion efficiency approaches the theoretical maximum, I have to conclude that my efficiency problems must stem from the lauter process. But when I have tried holding back some mash water for a pour-over, it hasn't helped. Maybe I need to try a couple of gallons instead of 0.5 - 1 gal, as I have before.

Or maybe I need a mill, but I don't want to make the room for one!

 

[prosperbrews]

In a discussion elsewhere I was told that mash thickness should be calculated with the total water volume. Even though we have that huge dead space and the grain bed is thick, it's the total water volume that matters. Apparently?

When I started checking my conversion efficiency, I saw results that backed up that claim. Check out this table at BrauKaiser:

http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php/Understanding_Efficiency#Measuring_conversion_efficiency

You can check conversion efficiency by taking refractometer samples over time. When I have done this, it takes about 90 minutes to get close to the theoretical maximum gravity value in that table, using thickness calculated from the total water volume. If I used a thickness value that omitted the dead space liquid, I would expect my gravity to be much higher, right? But I have never observed that.

Because my conversion efficiency approaches the theoretical maximum, I have to conclude that my efficiency problems must stem from the lauter process. But when I have tried holding back some mash water for a pour-over, it hasn't helped. Maybe I need to try a couple of gallons instead of 0.5 - 1 gal, as I have before.

Or maybe I need a mill, but I don't want to make the room for one!

That 3.5 gallons of water is not in contact with the grain bed to aid in conversion. Sure, you recirculate, but there is also a fair bit of channeling going on as the water moves through the grain bed. I think folks are seeing higher efficiencies with 10 gallon batches due to having more water above the basket to make contact with the grain. Just a theory which I hope to prove soon.

 

[Dockside_Brewing]

Is your manifold under water or sitting on your grain bed?

 

[prosperbrews]

Is your manifold under water or sitting on your grain bed?

Mine is sitting on my grain bed, there is about .5 inch of wort that sits on top of the grain bed

 

[Dockside_Brewing]

I always have several inches of wort on top of the grain bed. I am not sure if that makes a difference or not. Here is a pic of my stout mash from the other day.

 

[jabba11]

View media item 69403I am doing very similar things to whats already been posted here. My mash efficiency is regularly 75%. I didn't have to adjust the temp on my mine though Ive measured grain bed temps dozens of times and right out of the box mine has always been pretty correct. I am pretty sure my mill gap is set at .42 maybe even tighter. I use rice hulls and stir at the end of a protein rest as example and then again once the bed has reached temp just to make sure the temp is solid through the bed. I DO do a sparge or more so a rinse at sparge temp I do not do a mash out. I usually have that water heating to sparge temp as well not just a cold rinse. In my experience it does increase the O.G. It really makes some sense as just lifting the basket out theres sure to be SOME residual sugars left behind. I pull about a gallon off to do this and it comes from my total calculated water after adding in salts (I use RO). I use a rotating sparge arm that "sprinkles that water as it rotates. Im not sure pouring it over the bed works as well but im not a fluid dynamics genius so who knows. I primarily do ten gallon batches and im not a "big beer" drinker and so my grists are usually on the lighter side of the beer world with most of my beers coming in between 4.5 and 5% ABV. I have the ss manifold and run recirc and the manifold full open MOST of the time. Seems like with 5 gallon batches I have to close the recirc some but never on a 10 gallon. The pot upper left is the sparge.. heres a link to the sparge arm working you can try to view not sure that will work.

 

[Dockside_Brewing]

Where did you purchase the sparge arm? Any close up pics on the attachment?

 

[prosperbrews]

I always have several inches of wort on top of the grain bed. I am not sure if that makes a difference or not. Here is a pic of my stout mash from the other day.

You are doing 10+ gallon batches. You have enough water to completely submerge the grain bed and then some, so it makes sense you’d have much more water on top of a settled grain bed. This is my theory why 5 gallon batches suffer in efficiency - grain bed is much thicker and doesn’t have the constant direct contact with as much water as you’d get with a 10 gallon batch

 

[Dockside_Brewing]

I agree. The 20 gallon pot is just too big for a 5 gallon batch to hit your targets. I went to the 25 gallon pot because I also wanted to do 15 gallon batches which was out of reach for the 20.

 

[prosperbrews]

I agree. The 20 gallon pot is just too big for a 5 gallon batch to hit your targets. I went to the 25 gallon pot because I also wanted to do 15 gallon batches which was out of reach for the 20.

Hoping I can overcome this limitation by not using the steam condenser in favor of traditional boil (adds 1 gallon to boil off, which means more mash water) and lessening the grain bill in anticipation of a higher efficiency. Doing both of these things brings the grain/grist ratio up from 1.2 qt/lb to 1.7 qt/lb. I will report back on the outcome.