Treehouse Brewing Julius Clone

[Little_Lebowski]

Few questions...

1. With ~18+ lbs malt and sugar on top of it, what sort of OG are you calculating here? Or are you simply compensating for poor efficiency. If this is a 5 gallon batch I'd assume something near 1.09+

2. What are your water ppm that you're shooting for then with the tsp additions listed?

3. Yeast? Ferm temps?

Thanks for the share, btw

 

[Jmash]

1) 7.5 gallons post boil
6.25 or so into fermenter.
5 gallons into corny keg
OG 1.072
FG 1.013

2) No math figured for water ppm. Just random internet info and average recommendations

3) 1318 w 1.5 liter starter 48 hours in advance. I use the same ferm temp technique as Braufessor uses in his epic Northeast IPA thread:
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=568046

I tend to start fermentation off around 62 at let it free rise to 66-68 degrees through the first 3 days or so of fermentation. At that point, I like to move it somewhere that it can finish off in the 68-70-72 range.

 

[braindead]

So has anyone got the perfect recipe yet.
I`m just about to purchase my malt and hops.
Do you think Golden promise pale Malt would be a good base
https://www.themaltmiller.co.uk/index.php?_a=viewProd&productId=17

Please someone post an updated perfect 5 gallon recipe as i`m brewing it for my wedding

Thanks

 

[JohnConnor]

So has anyone got the perfect recipe yet.
I`m just about to purchase my malt and hops.
Do you think Golden promise pale Malt would be a good base
https://www.themaltmiller.co.uk/index.php?_a=viewProd&productId=17

Please someone post an updated perfect 5 gallon recipe as i`m brewing it for my wedding

Thanks

Golden Promise is my go to base malt. Love it. Especially in this style. It's a little sweeter so you can finish a bit drier without it seeming dry (if that makes sense). I actually have one finishing up with GP and a little oat. All mosaic... I guess you could say my take on Mosaic Promise. Just added my dry hop and took a gravity reading. Taste from that was damn good. Really looking forward to it.

 

[Jmash]

Try the Irish Ale malt. I liked it better than GP

 

[braindead]

Try the Irish Ale malt. I liked it better than GP

Thanks for the input.
Pity we cant get any honey malt here in the UK.
heard it makes all the difference

 

[cgreene]

11# golden promise
3# white wheat
1# carapils
1# flaked wheat
6 oz honey malt

Citra/Rakau/Galaxy in that order of percentages
7 oz between 5min and whirlpool
8 oz dry hops (2 as ferm slows and 6 post ferm)
Gigayeast VT

Hey LL I really like the look of this recipe. I purchased the grains today for it. Any chance you can elaborate a little more on the recipe? Batch size? Mash time and temp? Ferm schedule? Also not quite sure how to break down the hop schedule by percentages. Any input on that? Newer to advanced brewing. Thanks in advance for anymore insight.

 

[Little_Lebowski]

Hey LL I really like the look of this recipe. I purchased the grains today for it. Any chance you can elaborate a little more on the recipe? Batch size? Mash time and temp? Ferm schedule? Also not quite sure how to break down the hop schedule by percentages. Any input on that? Newer to advanced brewing. Thanks in advance for anymore insight.

Yeah sure thing:

11# golden promise
3# white wheat
1# carapils
1# flaked wheat
6oz honey malt
4oz corn sugar (15 min remaining in boil)
.25 whirfloc tablet (15 min remaining)

Water:
Distilled water 9 gallons
I throw all salt additions into one gallon of room temp distilled water the night before to get everything nice and dissolved (Mark cap with a sharpie to make sure it gets added to mash water)

10 grams calcium chloride
2 grams gypsum
2 grams Epsom salts
I've been using this as my go to IPA addition for sometime so I can't recall the exact concentrations of each but I'm pretty sure it's around 200:100 chloride to sulfate. All additions are added to the mash. I add in 1-2mL lactic 88% to bring the pH into sweet spot. I don't get super crazy about these numbers anymore but more ballpark

Mash 5 gallons at 164F for a 152F mash for 60 min
Batch sparge 3.75 gallons at 175F

Add whirfloc and corn sugar at 15
1 oz each citra/Rakau/galaxy at 5
2 oz citra 1 oz rakau 1 oz galaxy 180F whirlpool 20 min

2L starter of Conan pitched at 67F

Day 3 or once krausen starts to fall add first round of dry hops
1 oz citra
1 oz galaxy



Wait till activity COMPLETELY stops. Usually around a week or so
Drop temp to 60F
Add 2nd round of dry hops
4 oz citra
2 oz Rakau
Dry hop for 3-4 days

WORK SUPER HARD AT COLD SIDE OXYGEN EXPOSURE!
Try your best to keep sampling and cracking that carboy lid to a bare minimum. This I have found to be the biggest aroma killer

I keg my beers and kegged this one around day 8-9. Took a few days to carb up but I found this REALLY shined at about 10 days after being kegged.

Feel free to message me or ask for any other pointers about this one. Good luck! Excited to see how it goes for you

 

[Goont]

Hi there, french brewer here..

Little lebowsky, dont you find some "orange peel" in the Rakau too? I used it for a while right now, and combined with Waimea it's a truely bitter orange (Orange flower, orange peel, whatever)
I thought about not using it in my next DIPA... but focus on citrus, resinous, passion fruit stuff.
Here is my next brew (translate for 5.5 Gallons, i'm brewing on 20bbl):

Grist :
Pale Ale 60%
Flakes oat : 18%
Pilsen 16%
Dextrose : 4%

I was aiming 44 IBU (on the bittering side) with waimea... but after some reads on that topic, maybe it would be a bad idea?

Waimea @FWH 44 IBU

Mosaic 1oz @flameout 20min
Galaxy 1oz @flameout 20Min

Mosaic 1oz @Dry Hop (High krausen) => 10/14 days
Galaxy 1oz @Dry Hop (High krausen) => 10/14 days

Mosaic 2oz @Dry Hop 5 days - Cryo


155°F mash - 60min

Water profile :

Ca 91.4
Mg : 2.2
Na 10.4
Cl 144.4
SO4 53.8
HCO 0

If you have some advice...

 

[Little_Lebowski]

My Rakau recipe above, although in the Julius thread (I know and apologize), wasn't necessarily a clone. The malt bill surely is a great base to try and nail down the hop combination for julius, but as for mine with the citra galaxy and Rakau it was not necessarily going for Julius. It was very peachy and apricoty from that's rakau. First time I used it and I loved how it came out.

As for your recipe... I'd do a straight swap out the pilsner for wheat malt to help in the appearance and body. Back the flaked oats down a bit and do a 50/50 addition of flaked oats/carapils. Lastly I'd save yourself 3-4% for a little c15-c20 for a little color and sweetness.

As for the hops... you've got basically 2 oz in the entire hot side of your brew. Not saying there's anything wrong with that but if you decide to keep it there I'd massively increase your dry hop additions. You could keep the fermentation addition at 2 oz, I personally don't like to waste a huge addition while there's so much airlock activity. That second addition though after fermentation is complete you could easily get away with at least a 6 oz addition. I'd do 2 oz each of your galaxy and mosaic but toss in an extra 2 oz of citra as well.

I've never bittered with Waimea so can't comment on that. For a safe bet though either toss in an oz of Columbus or magnum or warrior at 60min or do a .5 oz FWH with Columbus. You definitely have room in your kettle for the IBUs

 

[GreenCheek]

Okay, so I'll post my hop schedule with a BIG caveat:
this batch has much more bitterness than my last one, largely due to going too big on the flameout addition. Then after about a month in the keg, when the volatile fresh hops was fading, I closed-loop transferred it to a 2.5 gal keg with 2 more oz of Galaxy dry hop. The result: while the flavor is spot on to what I was aiming for (and fresh once again due to the second keg dry hop), the bitterness is approaching west coast IPA bitterness. I left that out of the description because it was an error on my part that doesn't take away from the flavor and aroma.

Also, it was my first time using Azacca. I used it because it supposedly adds tropical fruit, and I wanted to move away from the dankness I got from my previous batch (further below). I did not get a strong dankness from the Galaxy. A little, but not on par with Simcoe.

Here is what I did:
1 oz Azacca - 15 min boil
0 min flameout:
1 oz each: Azacca, Citra, Galaxy
Dry Hop - H Kreusen:
1 oz each: Azacca, Citra, Galaxy
Dry Hop - Post-ferm:
1 oz each: Azacca, Citra, Galaxy
Next time I would only use Citra in the flameout and either push the other two ounces into dry hop or even keg hop.

The batch before was also excellent, but a little more dankness than I wanted. But here it is:
1 oz Simcoe - 15 min boil
1 oz Citra- 5 min boil
1 oz Mosaic - 0 min flameout
1 oz Citra day 3 dry hop
1 oz Galaxy day 3 dry hop
2 oz Citra day 6 dry hop
2 oz Galaxy day 6 dry hop

What would you say your target bitterness is? I know beersmith doesn't calculate whirlpool hops or dry hop residual bitterness (debated topic) very well or at all, but without those factors i'm getting pretty low numbers. It's basically a pale ale bitterness (~31 IBU) with a slightly higher ABV.

Also do you whirlpool or just flameout & chill?

I'm sorry if you've repeated this before, I've gone through 30 pages and couldn't find an answer! Cheers

 

[Jmash]

My last few batches. Ive used 4mil hopshot at 60 min and not added anything until 160 degree/half hour whirlpool. 2 dryhop additions the same. No aggressive bitterness. I was planning on adding an oz of galaxy in the closed loop transfer if needed but I dont think the beer is going to last long enough ha.

 

[Cavpilot2000]

What would you say your target bitterness is? I know beersmith doesn't calculate whirlpool hops or dry hop residual bitterness (debated topic) very well or at all, but without those factors i'm getting pretty low numbers. It's basically a pale ale bitterness (~31 IBU) with a slightly higher ABV.

Also do you whirlpool or just flameout & chill?

I'm sorry if you've repeated this before, I've gone through 30 pages and couldn't find an answer! Cheers

I actually do aim for low bitterness (30-40 IBU) because my favorite versions of NEIPA (Julius, Green) are very low on bitterness.

I have done both. Usually I like to fo flameout and chill, but on this last version (the too bitter one), I did an actual whirlpool (with the boil hops staying in for the ride).

It's worth noting that while I got a lot more bitterness than I wanted, it still wasn't an aggressively bitter beer. I'd say it was in the 50-60 IBU range. But I don't want my NEIPA bitter, I want it smooth and quaffable.

 

[melville]

I actually do aim for low bitterness (30-40 IBU) because my favorite versions of NEIPA (Julius, Green) are very low on bitterness.

I have done both. Usually I like to fo flameout and chill, but on this last version (the too bitter one), I did an actual whirlpool (with the boil hops staying in for the ride).

It's worth noting that while I got a lot more bitterness than I wanted, it still wasn't an aggressively bitter beer. I'd say it was in the 50-60 IBU range. But I don't want my NEIPA bitter, I want it smooth and quaffable.

Julius and Green are over 100 IBUs, the goal in attempting to close Julius and Green is getting a smooth bitterness, not a low bitterness. Supposedly extracts play a role here.

 

[Little_Lebowski]

Many, professionals included, are coming to the realization the term "IBUs" is dead.

 

[Cavpilot2000]

IBU is a very relative and subjective term. Any calculation that puts Julius at 100+ IBU is both flawed from the conventional concept of what IBUs are supposed to measure (perceived bitterness) and is working solely on a formula measuring amount of hops involved, not isomerization of acids or perceived bitterness.
Drink a Julius next to a Sierra Nevada Pale Ale and tell me which one comes across as more bitter on the palate. I'll give you a hint, it's not Julius.

 

[Goont]

My Rakau recipe above, although in the Julius thread (I know and apologize), wasn't necessarily a clone. The malt bill surely is a great base to try and nail down the hop combination for julius, but as for mine with the citra galaxy and Rakau it was not necessarily going for Julius. It was very peachy and apricoty from that's rakau. First time I used it and I loved how it came out.

As for your recipe... I'd do a straight swap out the pilsner for wheat malt to help in the appearance and body. Back the flaked oats down a bit and do a 50/50 addition of flaked oats/carapils. Lastly I'd save yourself 3-4% for a little c15-c20 for a little color and sweetness.

As for the hops... you've got basically 2 oz in the entire hot side of your brew. Not saying there's anything wrong with that but if you decide to keep it there I'd massively increase your dry hop additions. You could keep the fermentation addition at 2 oz, I personally don't like to waste a huge addition while there's so much airlock activity. That second addition though after fermentation is complete you could easily get away with at least a 6 oz addition. I'd do 2 oz each of your galaxy and mosaic but toss in an extra 2 oz of citra as well.

I've never bittered with Waimea so can't comment on that. For a safe bet though either toss in an oz of Columbus or magnum or warrior at 60min or do a .5 oz FWH with Columbus. You definitely have room in your kettle for the IBUs

Thanks mate !
I dont have any carapils

 

[Cavpilot2000]

Julius and Green are over 100 IBUs, the goal in attempting to close Julius and Green is getting a smooth bitterness, not a low bitterness. Supposedly extracts play a role here.

Double post, but I meant to quote in the first one.


IBU is a very relative and subjective term. Any calculation that puts Julius at 100+ IBU is both flawed from the conventional concept of what IBUs are supposed to measure (perceived bitterness) and is working solely on a formula measuring amount of hops involved, not isomerization of acids or perceived bitterness.
Drink a Julius next to a Sierra Nevada Pale Ale and tell me which one comes across as more bitter on the palate. I'll give you a hint, it's not Julius.

 

[fatnhappy]

So this was my second attempt at Julius. It's been a year since I had the real thing, so not sure it's spot on, but it's damn tasty. Did a 10 gallon batch and split into 2 fermenters. One with 1318 and the other with my standby 1968 ESB. They are very different beers. 1968 isn't remotely close to a New England style in appearance, nose or fruitiness. The beer on the left is 1318 and the right is 1968

Julius clone-2nd version
10 gallons

22lbs Maris otter
4lb white wheat
5lb carafoam
1.5lb flaked oats

Mash water-9 gallons at 165 degrees for mash at 154. Rest for 60. Sparge water 9 gallons at 170. Collected 13 gallons

OG- 1.076

1oz mosaic-45
1oz Amarillo-45
2oz each citra, mosaic Amarillo- 15
2oz each citra, mosaic Amarillo - 10
1oz mosaic, Amarillo and 2oz citra- 5
2oz each mosaic, citra, Amarillo 30 min steep at 170 degrees

Wyeast 1318 and 1968 in different fermenters

On day 4 of fermentation, 1oz each into each fermenter
FG on 1318 was 1.016

 

[Gustatorian]

So this was my second attempt at Julius. It's been a year since I had the real thing, so not sure it's spot on, but it's damn tasty. Did a 10 gallon batch and split into 2 fermenters. One with 1318 and the other with my standby 1968 ESB. They are very different beers. 1968 isn't remotely close to a New England style in appearance, nose or fruitiness. The beer on the left is 1318 and the right is 1968

Julius clone-2nd version
10 gallons

22lbs Maris otter
4lb white wheat
5lb carafoam
1.5lb flaked oats

Mash water-9 gallons at 165 degrees for mash at 154. Rest for 60. Sparge water 9 gallons at 170. Collected 13 gallons

OG- 1.076

1oz mosaic-45
1oz Amarillo-45
2oz each citra, mosaic Amarillo- 15
2oz each citra, mosaic Amarillo - 10
1oz mosaic, Amarillo and 2oz citra- 5
2oz each mosaic, citra, Amarillo 30 min steep at 170 degrees

Wyeast 1318 and 1968 in different fermenters

On day 4 of fermentation, 1oz each into each fermenter
FG on 1318 was 1.016

Interesting how yeast can change the beer's color so drastically. It's like due to a number of things (flocculation differences, malt/hop interaction). I recently brewed my house pale with 095 (burlington) instead of 1318 –
totally different beer.

On another note, can we try to have people post grist percentages instead of actual weight of different malts? I think it will allow us to hone in on the actual grist bill and make it easily applicable for the variation between everyone's systems.

 

[fatnhappy]

Interesting how yeast can change the beer's color so drastically. It's like due to a number of things (flocculation differences, malt/hop interaction). I recently brewed my house pale with 095 (burlington) instead of 1318 –
totally different beer.

On another note, can we try to have people post grist percentages instead of actual weight of different malts? I think it will allow us to hone in on the actual grist bill and make it easily applicable for the variation between everyone's systems.

I like to test different yeasts. It's a split batch, so no variables other than yeast. And I'm not great at math so someone else will have to figure out percentages

 

[hajenad]

Interesting how yeast can change the beer's color so drastically. It's like due to a number of things (flocculation differences, malt/hop interaction). I recently brewed my house pale with 095 (burlington) instead of 1318 –
totally different beer.

On another note, can we try to have people post grist percentages instead of actual weight of different malts? I think it will allow us to hone in on the actual grist bill and make it easily applicable for the variation between everyone's systems.

How was 095 compared to 1318? I was thinking about switching it up on my next batch with 095.

 

[Gustatorian]

How was 095 compared to 1318? I was thinking about switching it up on my next batch with 095.

I've only used 095 for my last 2 batches, so my opinion is somewhat anecdotal. But, compared to 1318, its fermentation behavior is drastically different. It moves QUICKLY but covertly. You would never assume the rapidity of fermentation based on the tempered activity coming from the blow-off. Oddly enough, 095 then drags out the final 3-5 gravity points over 9-10 days, even with an increase in temp. Both times I had high krausen at about 18 hours (which is when I usually like to do my first charge of dry-hops, with 1318 that's usually around day 3) after I pitched the yeast. The last dry-hop charge has been tricky too. I would space it out closer to day 9-10 rather than day 7. Both batches of 095 I've hit the 2nd dry-hop at day 7 and it seems like the CO2 created is sufficient enough to scrub more of the hop aroma out of the beer. Still had nice results, but the potency in the aroma was significantly dropped as compared to 1318.

When comparing the yeast starters (I always taste what I decant off the starter), I prefer 095. They both have a nice stone fruit character, but 095 is a tad bit softer. 1318 always has that post-ripe peach ester thing going on.

In summary, I still need to play with 095 more. Next time I use it in a double dry-hopped batch, I'll dry-hop about 18 hours after pitch, and probably at day 9.

 

[stickyfinger]

I've only used 095 for my last 2 batches, so my opinion is somewhat anecdotal. But, compared to 1318, its fermentation behavior is drastically different. It moves QUICKLY but covertly. You would never assume the rapidity of fermentation based on the tempered activity coming from the blow-off. Oddly enough, 095 then drags out the final 3-5 gravity points over 9-10 days, even with an increase in temp. Both times I had high krausen at about 18 hours (which is when I usually like to do my first charge of dry-hops, with 1318 that's usually around day 3) after I pitched the yeast. The last dry-hop charge has been tricky too. I would space it out closer to day 9-10 rather than day 7. Both batches of 095 I've hit the 2nd dry-hop at day 7 and it seems like the CO2 created is sufficient enough to scrub more of the hop aroma out of the beer. Still had nice results, but the potency in the aroma was significantly dropped as compared to 1318.

When comparing the yeast starters (I always taste what I decant off the starter), I prefer 095. They both have a nice stone fruit character, but 095 is a tad bit softer. 1318 always has that post-ripe peach ester thing going on.

In summary, I still need to play with 095 more. Next time I use it in a double dry-hopped batch, I'll dry-hop about 18 hours after pitch, and probably at day 9.

I've used WLP095 a ton and just used 1318 again this last weekend. I was surprised at how fast the 1318 fermented. It definitely ferments a little faster than wlp095. I haven't seen the really long ferment though. the 1318 starter tasted like a tart cherry to me. the wlp095 is much milder and smoother in comparison. i'd like to do a side-by-side b/w them sometime. i think the 1318 may be slightly more attenuative as well. i seem to always get a little higher AA% with 1318. maybe wlp095 would come down more if I left a really long time, not sure. both taste amazing in IPAs IMHO.

Oh, also, 1318 is hazier over the longterm, though wlp095 can keep a pretty long haze as well. i have jars of harvested yeast in my fridge and 1318 has an super long-lasting haze!

 

[Gustatorian]

I've used WLP095 a ton and just used 1318 again this last weekend. I was surprised at how fast the 1318 fermented. It definitely ferments a little faster than wlp095. I haven't seen the really long ferment though. the 1318 starter tasted like a tart cherry to me. the wlp095 is much milder and smoother in comparison. i'd like to do a side-by-side b/w them sometime. i think the 1318 may be slightly more attenuative as well. i seem to always get a little higher AA% with 1318. maybe wlp095 would come down more if I left a really long time, not sure. both taste amazing in IPAs IMHO.

Oh, also, 1318 is hazier over the longterm, though wlp095 can keep a pretty long haze as well. i have jars of harvested yeast in my fridge and 1318 has an super long-lasting haze!

For your pales and IPAs, how long are you letting 095 and 1318 sit on the beer before cold-crashing?

 

[stickyfinger]

For your pales and IPAs, how long are you letting 095 and 1318 sit on the beer before cold-crashing?

I usually go about 10 days for 095, dry hop on day 3-5. 1318 seems like 7-8 days is enough

 

[day_trippr]

[...]On another note, can we try to have people post grist percentages instead of actual weight of different malts? I think it will allow us to hone in on the actual grist bill and make it easily applicable for the variation between everyone's systems.

I don't get how that would be of net benefit.
You don't need percentages to "hone in" - he already provided the actual recipe!

It's trivial to calculate the percentages, and if your efficiencies suck you likely have to adjust any recipe already, anyway...

Cheers!

 

[leesmith]

I don't get how that would be of net benefit.
You don't need percentages to "hone in" - he already provided the actual recipe!

It's trivial to calculate the percentages, and if your efficiencies suck you likely have to adjust any recipe already, anyway...

Cheers!

I think either is fine...if not both. For some reason percentages make it easier for me to understand the relationship of the malts to one another. A lot of brewers refer to malt bills in percentages and you find it all over the place in blogs and websites.

Not trivial. 80% two-row and 20% wheat malt for a 1.040 beer of the same volume are going to be different weights on different systems depending on efficiencies. A 63% brew house efficiency and 73% brew house efficiency could produce a wort that is 10 degrees specific gravity different from one another. Neither of those efficiencies suck also. 63% B.H. efficiency on a similar system to mine produces a mash efficiency of 75% and a 73% B.H. efficiency produces a mash efficiency of 85%. Both well within the norm of producing good beer. And on the home brew scale to make up for the difference it could mean a pound less or more of malt. Either way some thought and calculations need to go into using someone's recipe in order to come out with the same result.

 

[Gustatorian]

I think either is fine...if not both. For some reason percentages make it easier for me to understand the relationship of the malts to one another. A lot of brewers refer to malt bills in percentages and you find it all over the place in blogs and websites.

Not trivial. 80% two-row and 20% wheat malt for a 1.040 beer of the same volume are going to be different weights on different systems depending on efficiencies. A 63% brew house efficiency and 73% brew house efficiency could produce a wort that is 10 degrees specific gravity different from one another. Neither of those efficiencies suck also. 63% B.H. efficiency on a similar system to mine produces a mash efficiency of 75% and a 73% B.H. efficiency produces a mash efficiency of 85%. Both well within the norm of producing good beer. And on the home brew scale to make up for the difference it could mean a pound less or more of malt. Either way some thought and calculations need to go into using someone's recipe in order to come out with the same result.

Agreed. Definitely not trivial. There are so many ways to brew these days that efficiencies run the gamut.

 

[day_trippr]

I don't see how expressing a recipe's grist bill in percentages as opposed to weight is going to provide an advantage when considering one's own brew house efficiency.

That's what the stated OG is for.

Here's a fun thought: grist bill in percentages - with NO OG...

Cheers!