Treehouse Brewing Julius Clone

[balrog]

The few times I added pickling lime for Ca, and then added phhosphoric acid for pH, I noticed it seemed to cloud the water, as if creating precipitate, and I wondered whether I was taking ions out of the water by doing so.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

The few times I added pickling lime for Ca, and then added phhosphoric acid for pH, I noticed it seemed to cloud the water, as if creating precipitate, and I wondered whether I was taking ions out of the water by doing so.

Were the beers subsequently able to clear, or did they remain cloudy?

 

[balrog]

As far as I remember the beer clarity for the different styles were not affected

 

[ultravista]

Any updates, recipe tweaks?

 

[tld6008]

Any updates, recipe tweaks?

Seems like a ghost town

 

[kaz4121]

No recipe update, but I tested a second can of Julius via Ward Labs and got some different results from round 1!

http://thirdleapbrew.com/technical/ward-labs-mineral-analysis-of-tree-house-julius-again/

 

[couchsending]

No recipe update, but I tested a second can of Julius via Ward Labs and got some different results from round 1!

http://thirdleapbrew.com/technical/ward-labs-mineral-analysis-of-tree-house-julius-again/

Not to rain on your parade but I’m not 100% sure I trust the ward labs reports on finished beer.

I know of people that have sent their own beer in and based off roughly what we know that malt will contribute and what their water profile is the results don’t make any sense.

The amount of bicarbonate and RA in those beers makes zero sense. You literally couldn’t hit Critical target pH values with numbers like that for pale beer.

Brew the same beer with completely different water profiles and go from there.

 

[IslandLizard]

The amount of bicarbonate and RA in those beers makes zero sense. You literally couldn’t hit Critical target pH values with numbers like that for pale beer.

Who said they're mashing with that profile? Minerals can be added later, before, during or after fermentation. With that load of bicarbonates, they likely were added after fermentation had completed, and possibly before dry hopping.

 

[couchsending]

Who said they're mashing with that profile? Minerals can be added later, before, during or after fermentation. With that load of bicarbonates, they likely were added after fermentation had completed, and possibly before dry hopping.

Maybe but that’s very unlikely. Unless their fermentation pH finished incredibly low. (So4 usually gets really low but then climbs a fair amount at the end). Dry hops would raise it quite a bit on their own. There are pH targets for optimum chemical reactions during dry hopping, generally 4.2-4.4. I guess anything is possible but there would also be other ions along with the bicarbonates. It’s clearly not sodium or calcium if you’re going off that report.

 

[IslandLizard]

Maybe but that’s very unlikely. Unless their fermentation pH finished incredibly low. (So4 usually gets really low but then climbs a fair amount at the end). Dry hops would raise it quite a bit on their own. There are pH targets for optimum chemical reactions during dry hopping, generally 4.2-4.4. I guess anything is possible but there would also be other ions along with the bicarbonates. It’s clearly not sodium or calcium if you’re going off that report.

Sure, adding different minerals at different stages.
I'm still looking at that report. Potassium is sky high.

Not Treehouse, but Shaun Hill, in an interview, said that many brewers don't understand water.

 

[couchsending]

Sure, adding different minerals at different stages.
I'm still looking at that report. Potassium is sky high.

Not Treehouse, but Shaun Hill, in an interview, said that many brewers don't understand water.

It’s shocking to me how few brewers understand water. I know at least three breweries nearby that don’t even own a pH meter... and it is blatantly obvious in their beer... and they’re seemingly successful... Which blows my mind. Can’t stand their beers.

Yeah the Potassium number is also really weird. The Hill Farmstead finished beer reports from Ward Labs are very different from TH. Many ways to skin a cat if you even believe the report.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

I fail to see anything other than random noise between the two TH samples analyzed by Ward Labs. Annual seed/crop variations and local to regional crop growing soil condition variations alone could easily explain the variances. They don't seem to definitively point to process changes.

 

[bierhaus15]

Their hop and malt choices affect ion content of the final beer, but the high bicarb is consistent with brewing with hard water and provides characteristics that some people like in hazy beer; namely softness and roundness.

 

[couchsending]

Their hop and malt choices affect ion content of the final beer, but the high bicarb is consistent with brewing with hard water and provides characteristics that some people like in hazy beer; namely softness and roundness.

But wouldn’t you get the associated harshness and astringency from high pH values? I thought that if you’re adding acid to hit targets with highly alkaline water the bicarbonates wouldn’t make it into the final beer.

 

[bierhaus15]

I don't know what they are doing, although from that much bicarb in the beer I'd assume it is water related and not C02 from packaging or exogenous hop products. That said, not every beer brewed with high pH is overwhelmingly harsh/astringent, especially when you're adding 3+ lbs/bbl of hops and leaving a ton of yeast in the beer. I did have their trail something pilsner recently and thought it was textbook bad... not crisp, bitter, astringent.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

Per AJ deLange pH 4.3 is the zero point for HCO3- (the bicarbonate ion), and pH 4.6 is mighty close. The high bicarb seems highly suspicious.

 

[malhal]

Watch Nate brew here



1:45 "oats are something we don't normally use".
2:00 citra, simcoe and amarillo.
4:20 secret sauce is probably salts.
9:55 looks like he's acidifying sparge water, that will prevent the harsh grain tannins that are in most commercial NEIPAs.

 

[day_trippr]

looks like he's acidifying sparge water, that will prevent the harsh grain tannins that are in most commercial NEIPAs.

huh? I've never experienced evident tannis in any commercially produced New England IPA.
Also that whole bit around 11:00 is full of nonsense. Vorlauf isn't going to reduce polyphenols or tannins...

 

[malhal]

huh? I've never experienced evident tannis in any commercially produced New England IPA.
Also that whole bit around 11:00 is full of nonsense. Vorlauf isn't going to reduce polyphenols or tannins...

Only some tongues have the tannin curse, cans that say juicey taste like wood and give a mouth puckering dryness. 90% of UK NEIPAs have the problem because the water is 8-9 pH and you get grain tannins if sparge water is over 6. Acidifying sparge water inline from HLT is too difficult it seems, obviously Treehouse are doing it.

more info here

Ditch the 10% phos. Use lactic or buy some 85% phos.

pH rising at the end of sparge and extracting tannins due to high alkalinity of the sparge water might be the most common fault in craft beer, commercial or home. Once you understand what that astringency feels/tastes like it’s amazing how many beers you’ll pick it up in.

 

[day_trippr]

Of course, and I wager any brewery that sparges their mash knows about keeping the last runnings below pH 5.6...

Cheers!

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

Of course, and I wager any brewery that sparges their mash knows about keeping the last runnings above pH 5.6...

Cheers!

Below?

 

[day_trippr]

Ugh. I hate it when I do that
Fixed it, thanks

I had to laugh when the brewer was acidifying the sparge liquor using a turkey baster while I use a 1mm syringe. They must have some super high residual alkalinity in Charlton

Cheers!

 

[malhal]

Of course, and I wager any brewery that sparges their mash knows about keeping the last runnings below pH 5.6...

Cheers!

That's interesting because if learning that caused them to miss out on learning that the pH going in needs to be also below 5.6 then the damage is already done by the time there are any sparge runnings at all even ones that have dropped from say 7-8 of the source water supply to below 5.6 on the way through the mash.

 

[day_trippr]

It really isn't a problem or require magic. One does the science and math then treats the water accordingly so there's no surprise at the end And if you ever see wort at "say 7-8" something was waaay wrong before the sparge...

Cheers!

 

[malhal]

It really isn't a problem or require magic. One does the science and math then treats the water accordingly so there's no surprise at the end And if you ever see wort at "say 7-8" something was waaay wrong before the sparge...

Cheers!

the water supply is 7 to 8, before it is used to sparge

 

[day_trippr]

Yes. And?

 

[malhal]

Yes. And?

you made a mistake saying wort is 7-8

 

[day_trippr]

There actually is no mistake there. Read it again - it's clearly a theoretical proposition...

Cheers!

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

Ugh. I hate it when I do that
Fixed it, thanks

I had to laugh when the brewer was acidifying the sparge liquor using a turkey baster while I use a 1mm syringe. They must have some super high residual alkalinity in Charlton

Cheers!

Residual Alkalinity is a mythical non-entity that has always been merely a derivative construct to begin with. AJ deLange stuck the first few forks in it, and then Chemists Barth and Zaman killed and buried it several years ago.

 

[day_trippr]

Towmaytoe towmahtoe.
You do realize you have become obsessed with that stuff, right?

Cheers!