Treehouse Brewing Julius Clone

[sjb523]

Why are you letting your beer sit in secondary for a week before you dryhop?

The fermentation was still a little aggressive after I moved it over, so I didn't want to do it straight out. If it calms down nicely before Saturday, I might go early, but I'm planning on the weekend right now.

Do you think that's too long? I just did a pliny clone and that had me wait two weeks after the move to secondary to dry hop...

 

[sjb523]

The fermentation was still a little aggressive after I moved it over, so I didn't want to do it straight out. If it calms down nicely before Saturday, I might go early, but I'm planning on the weekend right now.

Do you think that's too long? I just did a pliny clone and that had me wait two weeks after the move to secondary to dry hop...

From Nate's recipe:

"Ferment at 66°F (19°C) and turn off the temperature control as fermentation vigor slows. Once desired gravity is reached, rest for a few days and dry hop for 4–6 days."

I think I'm still in the pre-"slow fermentation vigor" stage. I probably went to the secondary too early.

 

[tagz]

Yeah, in general I wouldn't recommend transferring to secondary at all. You increase risk of oxidation and infection. In most cases you'll be fine, but there's not much advantage. Also, I tend to dryhop as fermentation is tapering off. The last bit of yeast activity can eat up or blow off any oxygen that was exposed to the wort by the hop addition. Some breweries like to drop some yeast out of suspension before dryhopping (yeast can cling to hop particles and drop them out) so that might be his strategy there. In any case, your batch will probably be great; there's more than one way to skin a cat (weird saying).

 

[mbbransc]

Harvested some yeast from Curiosity 24.

[/url]Untitled by mbbransc, on Flickr[/IMG]

 

[tagz]

You can write real fancy.

 

[mbbransc]

Thanks @tagz! Glad someone noticed. You can get real bored waiting for starter wort to cool in the sink.

 

[Ruckusz28]

Harvested some yeast from Curiosity 24.

It's some aggressive stuff! My conical is all murky and nothing in there will settle out.

 

[anhtran313]

Awesome topic, I am watching and saving all of you guys recipe. Love it !

 

[robopp]

What's the consensus on the three hops that go into Julius? Obviously, Citra is the main ingredient, but what are the other two? I'm thinking it's not Simcoe because they held off brewing Sap because they didn't have access to Simcoe and release Julius during this time. I'm leaning towards Cascade and Columbus, but it could be something like Apollo too.

 

[Ruckusz28]

Lots of people think columbus, citra, and amarillo. I'm not 100% convinced. I think there is some mosaic in there somewhere.

 

[kchomebrew]

Yeah...since I store my grains at room temp my system doesn't need such an extreme strike temp...maybe 4 or 5 degrees....sort of drew a conclusion there without really thinking about it....
I guess the real questions are: What do they typically loose at mash in? If the grain is at room temp and they only loose a few degrees are they are mashing high?
Does this help create their mouthfeel without using wheat or oats?

Assume the grains are 67f. That would mean a 1.25 qt/lb grist ratio added to 167f strike water would be a 151f mash temp. Really, if the grains are anywhere from 60f to 70f you're talking 150 to 152 mash temp range. I doubt mash temp is that big of a deal on mouthfeel. Probably more related to mash ph, boil ph and use of oats and/or wheat.

 

[olotti]

It seems that regarding the hops treehouse takes the same approach as trillium per their website in that they bitter pretty much everything with Columbus and are huge fans of Galaxy, Citra and mosaic. I know we were thinking that Conan may be the yeast of choice but possibly with these higher fg's and the haze that london ale 3 wy-1318 could be the actually yeast.

 

[Snubnoze707]

It seems that regarding the hops treehouse takes the same approach as trillium per their website in that they bitter pretty much everything with Columbus and are huge fans of Galaxy, Citra and mosaic. I know we were thinking that Conan may be the yeast of choice but possibly with these higher fg's and the haze that london ale 3 wy-1318 could be the actually yeast.

I know Trillium uses 007 Dry English Ale Yeast, and speaking to JC he's adamant that it is not yeast in suspension nor proteins from adjuncts, it's hop oil. The bio transformation of oils when dry hops make contact with the yeast at the tail end of fermentation is what is creating the haze. Those English strains are highly floculant.

 

[olotti]

I know Trillium uses 007 Dry English Ale Yeast, and speaking to JC he's adamant that it is not yeast in suspension nor proteins from adjuncts, it's hop oil. The bio transformation of oils when dry hops make contact with the yeast at the tail end of fermentation is what is creating the haze. Those English strains are highly floculant.

So from your findings would you say they do a huge dry hop near the end of primary fermentation to get that haze which I've always thought or looked like just hop oils and resins stuck in suspension. I use 007 and it drops like crazy so if that's whT they use then there's def no yeast or very little in the finished product

 

[sjb523]

It seems that regarding the hops treehouse takes the same approach as trillium per their website in that they bitter pretty much everything with Columbus and are huge fans of Galaxy, Citra and mosaic. I know we were thinking that Conan may be the yeast of choice but possibly with these higher fg's and the haze that london ale 3 wy-1318 could be the actually yeast.

That's interesting. It means that none of the Tree House hops are in the Hoppy Thing recipe that Nate posted. I think that makes sense. The recipe uses simcoe for bittering and I assumed that was the first thing that I should change to get closer.

 

[olotti]

That's interesting. It means that none of the Tree House hops are in the Hoppy Thing recipe that Nate posted. I think that makes sense. The recipe uses simcoe for bittering and I assumed that was the first thing that I should change to get closer.

The thing I noticed was if you go to the trillium website they list all the hops and malts they use and consistently they use Columbus which I can only imagine they use for bittering and then the other hops like Citra, Galaxy and mosaic per their beers where they list them are for flavor and dry hop, just my thinking it's obviously not gospel. But the Facebook link provided earlier in this post where treehouse lists hops ctz is used as a bittering hop and follows what I've found on the trillium website. Food for thought I guess. I also think that in that hoppy thing recipe Nate was just giving a general recipe not one from his own books if ya know what I mean. Here's how to get a hoppy beer kinda like ours but we hold the rest of our cards close to the vest is what I get from that

 

[Snubnoze707]

So from your findings would you say they do a huge dry hop near the end of primary fermentation to get that haze which I've always thought or looked like just hop oils and resins stuck in suspension. I use 007 and it drops like crazy so if that's whT they use then there's def no yeast or very little in the finished product

Exactly. Same with 1318. Those strains also give off an ester profile that blends well with these new age hops.

 

[triticus]

Julius State of the Union
Unique attributes: Haze (Very), Mouthfeel (Soft/Full), Taste (Fruity, Citrusy, Hoppy, not Astringent, not Bitter), Color (Glowing Orange)

Haze
As far as the beer haze. I just keg hopped using 3oz of Whole Leaf Citra. The beer went in pretty clear and is coming out of the keg super hazy after a couple days. They don't use wheat flour (maybe they finely mill their grains and so they're essentially using flour?). Maybe adding flour on a homebrew scale and increase haziness. But it's probably how they handle their grains, maybe the yeast strain, and the hop oil content. They do some serious late hopping/dry hopping (1.6oz/gal reported). Personally if my beer tasted like Julius but wasn't hazy I'd say it was a success, haze will probably come if you're close to their process/ingredients.

Mouthfeel
Comes from grains/mash (ph, temp, water profile...). Mash low (50min at 150 deg F from Nate's Hoppy Thing). Maybe they use oats, but I've never seen anything about oats from them in their IPAs. Oats is a way homebrewers can hack softer mouthfeel into their beers?

Taste
Late hops, maybe hop extract for bittering (like the Alchemist does for Heady). Maybe they hop again right before packaging. Fruity yeast, fermented around 66. London Ale III, Conan, ... another english yeast? Use Highish Gypsum (CaSO4), Lowish Calcium Chloride (CACL) (from Nate).

Color
2-row malt, Caramel 40/60, Honey malt?, Carapils?

Hops
Definitely Citra, plus more USA hops to round out the flavor. Honestly here any of the fruity/citrusy USA hops would be great. Citra, Simcoe and Amarillo - Awesome. Citra, Amarillo and Mosaic - Awesome (also their Alter Ego). Citra, Galaxy and Mosaic - Awesome. Citra, Cascade and Columbus - Awesome. Citra, Galaxy and Motueka? - Awesome (also their Green?).

How does all of that sound? Did I miss anything? Did I get anything wrong?

 

[Ruckusz28]

I think you summed it up well. All are honorable things worth experimenting with from this point on.

 

[bierhaus15]

I know Trillium uses 007 Dry English Ale Yeast, and speaking to JC he's adamant that it is not yeast in suspension nor proteins from adjuncts, it's hop oil. The bio transformation of oils when dry hops make contact with the yeast at the tail end of fermentation is what is creating the haze. Those English strains are highly floculant.

Yeah, this wrong. What causes hazy beer is yeast, proteins, and polyphenols. Hop oils do not cause haze in the way we assume they do. You can dose pure myrcene into beer and nothing changes. Bio-transformation of hop oils does happen, but R linalool is no more prone to causing hazier beer than S linalool. What we see as haze is yeast and proteins from the mash binding with polyphenols from the hops. A hazy beer is not a sign of a hoppy beer.

 

[olotti]

Well color me confused. So is it yeast, hop oils from a massive dry hop or a combination or none

 

[kaz4121]

Yeah, this wrong. What causes hazy beer is yeast, proteins, and polyphenols. Hop oils do not cause haze in the way we assume they do. You can dose pure myrcene into beer and nothing changes. Bio-transformation of hop oils does happen, but R linalool is no more prone to causing hazier beer than S linalool. What we see as haze is yeast and proteins from the mash binding with polyphenols from the hops. A hazy beer is not a sign of a hoppy beer.

Can you elaborate? Or point me to a thread or source which goes into detail? Or can I PM you? I'm on the hunt for haze and would like to understand what causes it in greater detail to help achieve this with my own beers

 

[Snubnoze707]

Yeah, this wrong. What causes hazy beer is yeast, proteins, and polyphenols. Hop oils do not cause haze in the way we assume they do. You can dose pure myrcene into beer and nothing changes. Bio-transformation of hop oils does happen, but R linalool is no more prone to causing hazier beer than S linalool. What we see as haze is yeast and proteins from the mash binding with polyphenols from the hops. A hazy beer is not a sign of a hoppy beer.

You may be right, but this is at least what JC claimed it to be when I spoke with him in person at the RateBeer event. I know he does use white wheat in his beers, but not what percentage of the grist.

 

[bierhaus15]

Can you elaborate? Or point me to a thread or source which goes into detail? Or can I PM you? I'm on the hunt for haze and would like to understand what causes it in greater detail to help achieve this with my own beers

In simple terms, proteins, tannins, and yeast come in contact with polyphenols, humulinones, raw AA%, ect.. during dry hopping. These compounds bind with suspended yeast and form a haze, similar to chill haze. It has little to do with hop oils. If you were to remove protein and yeast before dry hopping, you'd end up with a clearer beer because these compounds (mostly polyphenols) wouldn't have as much to bind to. The reason small breweries are making hazy IPAs is simple… they are adding lots of hops to yeasty/protein rich beer and not centrifuging or filtering, allowing the yeast to stay in suspension.

If your goal is achieve a hazy/turbid IPA, brew with high protein malts (wheat/rye/oats) and dry hop when there is still some yeast activity. Don’t fine or filter. Yeast choice does play a role here - both with haze and hop character - although much of the said benefits of hazy IPA yeasts (conan/1318) is conjecture.

So why brew a hazy IPA? The super hazy IPA trend goes against a lot of what we have learned about achieving traditional hop aroma/flavor. Hazy IPAs are not necessarily more hoppy (oil concentration wise) than non-hazy or clear IPAs. The opposite is often true. However, what is different is that hazy IPA’s contain more haze forming compounds (namely yeast, non-isomerized alpha, polyphenol, tannins, chlorophyl, humuininones, ect) than clearer beer. These compounds are quite flavorful and people have become accustomed to their character, so much that we now have the “NE style IPA” as a mark of difference. Of course, mouthfeel and bitterness also play a role here.

What is important is that these other compounds do not readily contribute to what could be considered “true to type” or “definable” hop character. You can use soup as an analogy… throw in the whole spice rack and you’ll be hard pressed to pick out singular flavors. Yeast and hops sort of work the same way, you lose certain aroma/flavors in favor of others. That’s not to say one type of IPA is worse or better, just different. I enjoy them both. Although I don’t expect a turbid NE style IPA to be winning at GABF anytime soon.

 

[TxBigHops]

Julius State of the Union
Unique attributes: Haze (Very), Mouthfeel (Soft/Full), Taste (Fruity, Citrusy, Hoppy, not Astringent, not Bitter), Color (Glowing Orange)

Haze
As far as the beer haze. I just keg hopped using 3oz of Whole Leaf Citra. The beer went in pretty clear and is coming out of the keg super hazy after a couple days. They don't use wheat flour (maybe they finely mill their grains and so they're essentially using flour?). Maybe adding flour on a homebrew scale and increase haziness. But it's probably how they handle their grains, maybe the yeast strain, and the hop oil content. They do some serious late hopping/dry hopping (1.6oz/gal reported). Personally if my beer tasted like Julius but wasn't hazy I'd say it was a success, haze will probably come if you're close to their process/ingredients.

Mouthfeel
Comes from grains/mash (ph, temp, water profile...). Mash low (50min at 150 deg F from Nate's Hoppy Thing). Maybe they use oats, but I've never seen anything about oats from them in their IPAs. Oats is a way homebrewers can hack softer mouthfeel into their beers?

Taste
Late hops, maybe hop extract for bittering (like the Alchemist does for Heady). Maybe they hop again right before packaging. Fruity yeast, fermented around 66. London Ale III, Conan, ... another english yeast? Use Highish Gypsum (CaSO4), Lowish Calcium Chloride (CACL) (from Nate).

Color
2-row malt, Caramel 40/60, Honey malt?, Carapils?

Hops
Definitely Citra, plus more USA hops to round out the flavor. Honestly here any of the fruity/citrusy USA hops would be great. Citra, Simcoe and Amarillo - Awesome. Citra, Amarillo and Mosaic - Awesome (also their Alter Ego). Citra, Galaxy and Mosaic - Awesome. Citra, Cascade and Columbus - Awesome. Citra, Galaxy and Motueka? - Awesome (also their Green?).

How does all of that sound? Did I miss anything? Did I get anything wrong?

Nice summary of the thread. Thanks for putting this together.

 

[tagz]

In simple terms, proteins, tannins, and yeast come in contact with polyphenols, humulinones, raw AA%, ect.. during dry hopping. These compounds bind with suspended yeast and form a haze, similar to chill haze. It has little to do with hop oils. If you were to remove protein and yeast before dry hopping, you'd end up with a clearer beer because these compounds (mostly polyphenols) wouldn't have as much to bind to. The reason small breweries are making hazy IPAs is simple… they are adding lots of hops to yeasty/protein rich beer and not centrifuging or filtering, allowing the yeast to stay in suspension.

If your goal is achieve a hazy/turbid IPA, brew with high protein malts (wheat/rye/oats) and dry hop when there is still some yeast activity. Don’t fine or filter. Yeast choice does play a role here - both with haze and hop character - although much of the said benefits of hazy IPA yeasts (conan/1318) is conjecture.

So why brew a hazy IPA? The super hazy IPA trend goes against a lot of what we have learned about achieving traditional hop aroma/flavor. Hazy IPAs are not necessarily more hoppy (oil concentration wise) than non-hazy or clear IPAs. The opposite is often true. However, what is different is that hazy IPA’s contain more haze forming compounds (namely yeast, non-isomerized alpha, polyphenol, tannins, chlorophyl, humuininones, ect) than clearer beer. These compounds are quite flavorful and people have become accustomed to their character, so much that we now have the “NE style IPA” as a mark of difference. Of course, mouthfeel and bitterness also play a role here.

What is important is that these other compounds do not readily contribute to what could be considered “true to type” or “definable” hop character. You can use soup as an analogy… throw in the whole spice rack and you’ll be hard pressed to pick out singular flavors. Yeast and hops sort of work the same way, you lose certain aroma/flavors in favor of others. That’s not to say one type of IPA is worse or better, just different. I enjoy them both. Although I don’t expect a turbid NE style IPA to be winning at GABF anytime soon.

Nice post.

 

[robopp]

Julius State of the Union
Unique attributes: Haze (Very), Mouthfeel (Soft/Full), Taste (Fruity, Citrusy, Hoppy, not Astringent, not Bitter), Color (Glowing Orange)

Haze
As far as the beer haze. I just keg hopped using 3oz of Whole Leaf Citra. The beer went in pretty clear and is coming out of the keg super hazy after a couple days. They don't use wheat flour (maybe they finely mill their grains and so they're essentially using flour?). Maybe adding flour on a homebrew scale and increase haziness. But it's probably how they handle their grains, maybe the yeast strain, and the hop oil content. They do some serious late hopping/dry hopping (1.6oz/gal reported). Personally if my beer tasted like Julius but wasn't hazy I'd say it was a success, haze will probably come if you're close to their process/ingredients.

Mouthfeel
Comes from grains/mash (ph, temp, water profile...). Mash low (50min at 150 deg F from Nate's Hoppy Thing). Maybe they use oats, but I've never seen anything about oats from them in their IPAs. Oats is a way homebrewers can hack softer mouthfeel into their beers?

Taste
Late hops, maybe hop extract for bittering (like the Alchemist does for Heady). Maybe they hop again right before packaging. Fruity yeast, fermented around 66. London Ale III, Conan, ... another english yeast? Use Highish Gypsum (CaSO4), Lowish Calcium Chloride (CACL) (from Nate).

Color
2-row malt, Caramel 40/60, Honey malt?, Carapils?

Hops
Definitely Citra, plus more USA hops to round out the flavor. Honestly here any of the fruity/citrusy USA hops would be great. Citra, Simcoe and Amarillo - Awesome. Citra, Amarillo and Mosaic - Awesome (also their Alter Ego). Citra, Galaxy and Mosaic - Awesome. Citra, Cascade and Columbus - Awesome. Citra, Galaxy and Motueka? - Awesome (also their Green?).

How does all of that sound? Did I miss anything? Did I get anything wrong?

Great Summary. Here are a couple of things that caught my attention:

1 - I've seen a bag of CaraFoam at the brewery, which is very similar to Carapils, but provides a slightly sweeter taste.

2 - Simcoe is definitely not in Julius. How do I know this? Because Nate specifically said they are not brewing Sap because they don't have enough Simcoe.

3 - Personally, I'm thinking the hop combo is Citra, Amarillo and Cascade.

4 - Their beers finish with a pretty high FG. Julius is around 1.013, which leads me to believe that they might be using 1318 or some similar variant. 1318 is VERY hazy for a very long time even more so than Conan.

5 - In a response to a question about WP vs DH Nate said the following - "OG > FG | yeast strain | hop variety | etc .. generally, less is more . Don't fear kettle hops", which I find interesting since Trillium does the opposite and focuses on large DH for their hoppy offerings.

 

[Rhaegar92]

I just harvested some Sap yeast and picked up some Julius from the same canning day - the Sap has started to ferment the starter so I'm going to do the same with Julius and try to replicate the beer based on the knowledge in this thread. I think a large issue is going to come down to the malts. Hops are pretty straight forward in my experience with cloning, but it's the malt bill that really becomes a pain. I think water profile is going to likely be the biggest difficulty for replication, but thankfully my beers all have a slightly to significantly soft mouthfeel thanks to the glorious well water at my house (seriously a Belgian I made was like a pillow in your mouth, I'm fortunate to have the water I do!) I'm going to do some research and see what I can come up with.

 

[Snubnoze707]

In response to 1318 being hazy, the key point here is only with a substantial dry hop load. I've made brilliantly clear Bitters using 1318 without any finings.

 

[Ruckusz28]

The only concern I have with WY1318 is the following.. when I plug it into my clone recipe ideas on brew software, it always winds up stating that 1318 will finish too high. 1.018 is the FG I show with 1.068 OG, 6.8 ABV. I believe that is too high for a Julius clone. Perhaps for some of their more sessionable ales, but not Julius.

 

[mtnagel]

Harvested some yeast from Curiosity 24.

[/url]Untitled by mbbransc, on Flickr[/IMG]

OT but we have the same countertop and backsplash:

View attachment ImageUploadedByHome Brew1456926690.409722.jpg

 

[robopp]

The only concern I have with WY1318 is the following.. when I plug it into my clone recipe ideas on brew software, it always winds up stating that 1318 will finish too high. 1.018 is the FG I show with 1.068 OG, 6.8 ABV. I believe that is too high for a Julius clone. Perhaps for some of their more sessionable ales, but not Julius.

If you mash low (148F) it won't finish that high. As far as I'm aware, most brew software doesn't take mash temp into consideration and just uses average attenuation for the estimated FG.

 

[drez77]

If you mash low (148F) it won't finish that high. As far as I'm aware, most brew software doesn't take mash temp into consideration and just uses average attenuation for the estimated FG.

Agree with this The software only does math and nothing else to my knowledge.

 

[-Matteo-]

Did anyone who harvested these drags and brewed an IPA with them find the same kind of haziness?
And, of course, -mtnagel- please keep us posted about it

 

[Ruckusz28]

If you mash low (148F) it won't finish that high. As far as I'm aware, most brew software doesn't take mash temp into consideration and just uses average attenuation for the estimated FG.

Noted! I'll give it a shot then with lower mash temp.

Did anyone who harvested these drags and brewed an IPA with them find the same kind of haziness?
And, of course, -mtnagel- please keep us posted about it

Yes, I have. It is very hazy. I'm bottling because my kegging setup is non-existent at the moment. It's been in the bottles for about 4 days and it is extremely hazy.

 

[leesmith]

Ruckusz28,

I used 1318 with 1.070 beers and gotten down to 1.010 consistently ...with a healthy pitch, oxygen and temp control it finishes out fine.

 

[m00ps]

yeast definitely plays a huge role in creating haze. Ive found it can also help a lot with mouthfeel to

 

[TxBigHops]

If you mash low (148F) it won't finish that high. As far as I'm aware, most brew software doesn't take mash temp into consideration and just uses average attenuation for the estimated FG.

Agree with this The software only does math and nothing else to my knowledge.

Not so with Brewer's Friend. Lowering mash temp lowers FG. Raising mash temp raises FG. Can't attest to it's accuracy, but there is definitely an attempt within the software to indicate the effect of varying mash temp.

 

[Snubnoze707]

The only concern I have with WY1318 is the following.. when I plug it into my clone recipe ideas on brew software, it always winds up stating that 1318 will finish too high. 1.018 is the FG I show with 1.068 OG, 6.8 ABV. I believe that is too high for a Julius clone. Perhaps for some of their more sessionable ales, but not Julius.

I've noticed this with brewing software and 1318 as well (beersmith) but in my experiences it finished way lower.

 

[kchomebrew]

Been experimenting with Conan yeast for awhile. I dry hop and keg hop and carbonate with the keg hops still present in the keg. I'll second te comment about the beer being somewhat clear after leaving the fermenter and then hazing up once Brite tank/keg hopped and carbed. I also use white wheat and oats and honey malt. Here's a good example of a beer I just kegged last night and put on gas: View attachment ImageUploadedByHome Brew1456965066.908003.jpg