Too much Crystal? I want it to be sweet.

[Joewalla88]

3lbs pale ale
3lbs Vienna
1lb oatmeal
1lb crystal 20
.5lb victory
.25lb roasted barley
1lb tamarind pulp

What do you think? I want to make a tamarind brown ale. Might be too much crystal between the 20c and the victory.
I want it to be on the sweet side, but is this overdoing it? I can't decide.

 

[bitteritdown]

Victory is more of a biscuit malt than a crystal, however 1lb of crystal in a 5 gallon batch might be a little too much, perhaps try .75 or .5 lb, though the higher amount may just be balanced by the tamarind pulp.

 

[chickypad]

I don't think a lb is too much if you want some sweetness but it really depends on other factors are like OG, attenuation, bittering, etc. Victory is not a crystal malt and if anything has a drying effect I find. I have no idea what tamarind will bring to the table.

 

[Miraculix]

If you want the beer to be on the sweet side, mash high. Crystal malt only provides significantly more unfermentable sugars than base malt when steeped alone. As soon as you mash it together with basemalt or other malts rich in enzymes, the enzymes start converting the longer sugars from the crystal to shorter sugars, leaving only the specific taste of the crystal malt but not more residual sweetness than the same amount of base malt would provide.
By mashing high, you prevent the beta amylase to be really effective and the wort will contain a lot of those longer sugars which cannot be utilised by most of the brewing yeasts. Mash around 70 to 72C and you will get a sweet beer.

 

[rightthumbbc]

I just brewed a beer using 13.5% crystal, mashed at 154 for an hour, and it's about as much sweetness as I'd ever want in a beer. 1lb seems like a good starting place for your recipe, can play around with it later on if it doesn't turn out how you'd like it.

 

[Morrey]

Also you can play around with your Chloride to Sulfate ratio and bump the chlorides up some to enhance the maltiness.

Like Chickypad references in post #3, you may want to try a yeast that is less attenuating to leave some residual sweetness. Windsor is a possibility.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

I want it to be on the sweet side, but is this overdoing it? I can't decide.

As others have said - if you want sweetness then you want to start with your yeast, then look at your mash, and only then start to think about crystal. You've not even said what yeast you're using, but it's absolutely critical to the overall sweetness of the beer.

 

[Yooper]

That recipe doesn't look sweet to me. It looks dry (victory malt) in the finish, and a bit roasty, as well as quite tart (tamarind). You may want to consider getting rid of the roasted barley and use light chocolate malt if you want a brown ale, and maybe lactose for sweetening.

 

[Joewalla88]

I actually am gonna use chocolate malt instead. I forgot to change that. Not sure why I thought victory was a special crystal malt, I thought I'd read that somewhere. I'm using s-33, because I heard it is a low attentuator. I have some leftover honey malt too, but I don't know if that belongs in this.

 

[Joewalla88]

Oh and it's gonna be 20-30 ibus. I haven't totally decided the hopping rate yet.

 

[Joewalla88]

Typically I would know how much to use for a normal beer, but I've never worked with tamarind before, so I'm trying to find a balance there. I really like tamarind flavored drinks, and thought it would be fun in a beer, but I've never actually used it myself for anything before.

 

[Miraculix]

Typically I would know how much to use for a normal beer, but I've never worked with tamarind before, so I'm trying to find a balance there. I really like tamarind flavored drinks, and thought it would be fun in a beer, but I've never actually used it myself for anything before.

I had a saison containing tamarind in combination with lemon gras, kafir lime leaves and ginger. It was really nice, but also quite dry. I cannot really imagine the tamarind flavour going well with the crystal flavour, but that might be only my taste.

 

[Joewalla88]

Interesting, I had a completely different take on this idea. I was thinking of the tamarind flavor you get in things like Jumex, or Jarritos, which are fairly sweet. That's what made me think sweet brown ale.

 

[Yooper]

Interesting, I had a completely different take on this idea. I was thinking of the tamarind flavor you get in things like Jumex, or Jarritos, which are fairly sweet. That's what made me think sweet brown ale.

Tamarind is very close to lime in flavor, at least to me. It’s tart and bright, and I use it in place of lime in Thai recipes (and use lime in place of tamarind, when I’m out of tamarind). To make it a sweet juice takes a boatload of sugar. If you’re thinking Jumex, this isn’t even going to be close. That’s very very high in sugar. It’s pretty much sugar water, with a touch of tamarind flavor.

 

[Joewalla88]

Okay, cool. I might need to rethink this then. I don't necessarily want it to taste like Jumex, but that's definitely the flavor that inspired the idea. So, a new question then, is 1lb of tamarind going to be a lot? Normally when I add fruit I use 1lb per gallon, give or take. I was told tamarind was a strong flavor so I was only gonna use a pound to start. I'm really flying blind with this tamarind idea, and now I'm starting to feel less confident in my original idea. Don't get me wrong, I'm still gonna brew this tamarind beer Damnit! But I might need to tweak my recipe a bit.

 

[Yooper]

Okay, cool. I might need to rethink this then. I don't necessarily want it to taste like Jumex, but that's definitely the flavor that inspired the idea. So, a new question then, is 1lb of tamarind going to be a lot? Normally when I add fruit I use 1lb per gallon, give or take. I was told tamarind was a strong flavor so I was only gonna use a pound to start. I'm really flying blind with this tamarind idea, and now I'm starting to feel less confident in my original idea. Don't get me wrong, I'm still gonna brew this tamarind beer Damnit! But I might need to tweak my recipe a bit.

Tamarind is fairly strong, think lime on steroids. I love it. But I love lime as well. I wouldn't like either in a brown ale; maybe a cream ale or a light lager, but definitely not in something dark with roasty notes (like in chocolate malt). But think of things that you like lime in- if lime in a brown ale sounds tasty to you, then tamarind would also.

 

[Joewalla88]

When it comes to beer I like lime in negra modelo? Which is actually kinda where this idea started for me, and then evolved into what I've come up with now.

 

[Joewalla88]

Although, I heard recently that negra modelo's color comes from caramel coloring, and not necessarily the grain bill, so maybe I should think about that a bit.

 

[Miraculix]

I would just try using it in a saison, the slight tardness works really well with the saison character. Add a touch of ginger if you like. But don't overdo it! For a five gallon batch, a pound is way too much but don't ask me for a correct number... I would try boiling 1l of tamarind tea till the desired flavour is there and then upscale from there. You need a precise scale for this but this approach works very well on unknown flavour additions.

 

[dmtaylor]

I think 1 lb tamarind in 5 gallons is the right amount.

I think 1 lb Crystal malt may or may not be enough if you want a sweeter beer. You could use even MORE crystal maybe. It depends on your attenuation as well....

What yeast are you going to use? A low attenuating yeast along with a somewhat high mash temp like 156-157 F would help assure some sweetness, and will also help offset the tartness from the tamarind. Your beer will definitely be a bit tart.

Also, go easy on the chocolate malt or Victory. I'd use just 0.25 to prevent overpowering unless you want a very deep biscuity character.

 

[bitteritdown]

Mashing high and less attenuative yeast will help make a sweeter beer, but also consider cold steeping your crystal and adding it to the boil instead of mashing it. That way you can avoid the high mash temp and use a reasonable yeast while enjoying a properly attenuated beer.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

Mashing high and less attenuative yeast will help make a sweeter beer, but also consider cold steeping your crystal and adding it to the boil instead of mashing it. That way you can avoid the high mash temp and use a reasonable yeast while enjoying a properly attenuated beer.

I think you'll find 70% is proper attenuation, my dear fellow.....

 

[Joewalla88]

I'm using s33 for low attenuation and I'm gonna mash high. Looks like I might want to rethink my grain bill a little bit, and dial back the roasty toasty stuff. Maybe use it mostly for color. I might have some black prinz for that somewhere. I don't want to change the style because I have an idea I'm going for here. Thanks for all the input. I'll let you know how it turns out.