To Secondary or Not to Secondary?

[LarsonLE]

Hey everyone, so two days ago I brewed my extract Brewer's Best Kolsch kit, and I prepared Wyeast 2565 Kolsch yeast 24 hours in advance. It's about that time to decide on whether or not I should rack to secondary. I'm getting mixed reviews on whether or not to secondary. I know Kolsch's are normally clear beers, which is why I would want to go to secondary, but now I'm reading it is unnecessary and could be quite harmful (increase the chances of oxidation) to my beer. I just read this thread: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f163/secondary-not-john-palmer-jamil-zainasheff-weigh-176837/.

So what do you guys think? Secondary, or just keep it in primary for about a month?

 

[dmcoates]

just keep it in primary for about a month, but thats just me.

I will find out you have a more tight and compact yeast cake. And for me (carefully racking) into the keg gives me a very clear beer

 

[El_Exorcisto]

Don't secondary unless you are dry-hopping or adding fruit. The secondary is fairly pointless with modern yeast handling practices. Search around, ir has been discussed at least 700 times in the last week.

 

[Chris1272]

let it sit for 4 weeks in the primary. you will be surprised how clear your beer will be after that time.

 

[Golddiggie]

Let her ride in primary (on the yeast) for the duration...

This seems to be an area where people are either 100% on one side or the other (and passionate about why they are)... I started brewing with the primary/secondary model (I was told you'd get better beer from it)... I only did that for my first two brews... Since then, I've been using the long primary model and have been getting great brews...

While there are times when it's a good idea to rack into another vessel, just to clear up a brew isn't one of them. Unless you have ultra-tight control of the wort temperature while it's fermenting, chances are you'll want to give the yeast time to do a little cleanup after themselves...

Since you're new to home brewing, chances are you don't have all the hardware to do things perfect, in all aspects, yet... So, let the yeast do what it needs to, give it the time it needs to do it, and you'll be happy with what you get (probably more than just happy)... Eventually, you'll decide what methods work best for you, and you'll continue to get solid results. Personally, I see the long primary as the minimum risk of things going sideways method.

I would also suggest that you take the instructions with the kit and cut off any fermentation times it has (or at least fold them over)... Hydrometer readings will tell you when things are finished fermenting. Tasting those samples will tell you when it's actually ready to be bottled/kegged... DO get a decent scale (digital being my choice) to weigh things with. Things like priming sugars (use weight, not volume), flavor elements, etc...

 

[tnbrewer371]

i even dry hop in primary now, easier less hassle, works like a charm...

 

[bschoenb]

+1 on leave it for a month; and dry hoping in Primary... no more secondary for me.

 

[AnOldUR]

The secondary is fairly pointless with modern yeast handling practices.

Well, it's really not that simple, but in this case.
Primary for 3-4 weeks, cold crash for a few days, bottle.

 

[RitsiGators]

I try and move my carboy to where I am going to siphon a full day before i siphon to let any yeast that is stirred up by moving it settle back down... I also do not use a secondary...

 

[ChshreCat]

If you haven't skipped secondary, try it if you want. Or keep using a secondary. Either way, it works. Try new things and decide what's best for YOU.

 

[Snowhere]

I still use secondaries as I prefer to clean the carboy of the krausen ring about 2 weeks into the fermentation cycle. I never have had a oxidation problem as it is easy to syphon the wort off the trub. My octoberfast had settled down but it was at 1.020. I know a couple more weeks will drop that FG so I transfered it off the yeast cake and trub. Right now it is sitting pretty calmly but I will still give it another week until I bottle it. One can be patient when one's pipeline is pretty full. But each to their own. If it works for you just do what ever.

 

[LarsonLE]

I just wanted to say thanks to everyone for all of the posts. I think the answer is obvious here and to let it sit in the primary, at least for this beer (since I'm not dry-hopping or adding any kind of fruit).

I try and move my carboy to where I am going to siphon a full day before i siphon to let any yeast that is stirred up by moving it settle back down... I also do not use a secondary...

I think this is a really great idea. I've wondered if I'm shaking up the yeast when I'm moving the bucket to my bottling location. Definitely going to do this next time.

Also just a quick question. I know light is bad for hops, how much light do you think can get through a plastic bucket? Wherever I'm fermenting, I always put a towel or two around the bucket and make sure the area where the rubber grommet/airlock are covered really well, but is this necessary? Can the tiniest bits of light really mess up your beer?

 

[Yooper]

I leave most of my beers in the primary, but I would consider a secondary on a kolsch. I like to "lager" my kolsch, so I'd rack it and keep it at 34 degrees for a few weeks before packaging. To me, that's one of the reasons to use a secondary, if you have lagering abilities.

Light can ruin a beer, but not through a plastic bucket. Putting a towel over it is never a bad idea, but not all that necessary in a bucket.

 

[mybrewshop]

Don’t transfer that Kolsch. According to “Dave Millers’s Homebrewing Guide”, the main reason people transfer to a secondary is the fear that the yeast will start to autolyze. If you have a refrigerator, (which you should if you are brewing a Kolsch), then you should never need to transfer to secondary. Even with ales, wait for primary and secondary fermentation to complete, usually under a week, and then refrigerate the entire carboy at 32 to 34 degrees for a week or more. The yeast will drop out and go to sleep, giving you clear beer with autolysis free yeast at the bottom. Refrigeration is the key.

 

[LarsonLE]

So I just took an SG reading, and got a reading of 1.014. The estimated FG is 1.010-1.013, and it has only been 2.5 days since I added the yeast. Is it even possible that it fermented this fast? And I did make a starter. The estimated OG is 1.042-1.046.

I know the next question is gonna be "what was your OG?". I didn't retrieve an accurate OG because I added about 2.5 gallons of water to my wort, and when I took an OG reading I got something along the lines of 1.025 and was confused and a little disappointed, and just went on my way. Now that I think about it, I forgot to stir around the water and the wort together to get it all mixed up, this would explain why I got a much less OG reading than intended, right? I did shake up the carboy with the yeast to get it all aerated afterwards.

 

[mybrewshop]

1-2 days is normal for primary fermentation of an ale yeast but it is considerably more difficult to gauge the transition from primary to secondary fermentation with lagers. Since you don't know what your true OG is it's kind of a moot point to take gravity readings now. No need to risk contamination if you don't have good numbers to start with. I would just start cooling, (if you haven't already), at a rate of 2-4 deg/day until you reach 32-34 degrees. You don't want to crash cool it like an ale but slowly over the course of a week. A lot of flavor changes take place during secondary fermentation with lagers.

 

[AnOldUR]

You don't want to crash cool it like an ale but slowly over the course of a week. A lot of flavor changes take place during secondary fermentation with lagers.

Uhhhhh. Wyeast 2565 is an ale yeast. Cold Crashing is fine since the yeast won't be working the same way a lager yeast does below 55 or so degrees.
That's the beauty of it. You can produce lager like beer without lagering capabilities.

YEAST STRAIN: 2565 | Kölsch™

This strain is a classic, true top cropping yeast strain from a traditional brewery in Cologne, Germany. Beers will exhibit some of the fruity character of an ale, with a clean lager like profile. It produces low or no detectable levels of diacetyl. This yeast may also be used to produce quick-conditioning pseudo-lager beers and ferments well at cold 55-60°F (13-16°C) range. This powdery strain results in yeast that remain in suspension post fermentation. It requires filtration or additional settling time to produce bright beers.

Origin:
Flocculation: low
Attenuation: 73-77%
Temperature Range: 56-70° F (13-21° C)
Alcohol Tolerance: approximately 10% ABV

 

[mybrewshop]

I believe that is why a Kolsch is categorized as a hybrid beer. Brewed like an ale and then cold lagered. (That's what BJCP guidelines say anyway). I think he could crash it to cool ale temps and then lager it for 2-4 weeks at lager temps.

 

[Yooper]

I believe that is why a Kolsch is categorized as a hybrid beer. Brewed like an ale and then cold lagered. (That's what BJCP guidelines say anyway). I think he could crash it to cool ale temps and then lager it for 2-4 weeks at lager temps.

I'd suggest keeping it where it is until it's at least a week old, then I'd rack and cold condition it. I'm not a fan of lagering on the yeast cake but I can see I'm in the minority here!

 

[AnOldUR]

I'm not a fan of lagering on the yeast cake but I can see I'm in the minority here!

I'm not suggesting lagering on the cake. Just a few days of cold crashing to clear it up some before bottling. After they've carbed, it would be best to chill the bottles for several weeks before drinking, but he could sample it sooner.

I agree that lagering in a secondary is the best way to go. My fault was reading between the lines and guessing that the OP was new to brewing and might not have the patience or facilities for lagering this batch.

And if he is ready to go the true lagering route, I don't believe that mybrewshop's suggestion to slowly ramp the temperature down is necessary with this particular yeast. Drop to lagering temperatures in a secondary and give it some time to improve.

 

[Homercidal]

I've never brewed a Kolsch, but when I brew a Blonde, I try to keep the temp down to the low end of the yeast range and just let it sit for 4 weeks, then crash cool for a few days. The only trouble I've had is stirring up the bottom a bit when moving. With Notty yeast, it's no big deal because by 4 weeks in, that yeast cake is cemented to the bottom of the bucket pretty good.

I don't think transferring to a secondary is a bad idea, but in my experience, it's easier to leave it in the primary. If you have access to CO2, then just shoot some CO2 into the secondary before racking, and be gentle. I think the chances of oxidizing are overestimated. Just don't slosh it around!

 

[LarsonLE]

So my Kolsch has been sitting in the primary for two weeks today, and I am in a dilemma. I want to brew an IPA tonight because I just got my outdoor propane burner and really want to try it out, but in order for that to happen, I need to have my primary fermenting bucket available, which is what the Kolsch is sitting in now. I have a secondary 5 gallon better bottle, that I can't use for primary because it is only 5 gallons. So I was thinking I could transfer my Kolsch to the better bottle, and then brew up the IPA and put that in my primary.

Do you guys think I should just be patient and let the Kolsch stay on the yeast cake for a longer period of time? Also if I were to rack to secondary, would this highly risk oxidation since fermentation is practically complete (I'm already at my FG)? And, if you guys think racking would be okay, do you think it would be a good idea to ferment the IPA with the kolsch yeast that will be at the bottom of my bucket?

 

[Golddiggie]

I have a secondary 5 gallon better bottle, that I can't use for primary because it is only 5 gallons.

NOT true... You CAN use a 5 gallon carboy as primary. I've done it with great results. JUST be sure to not fill it much over 5 gallons, and/or install a blow-off tube. You could also try using fermcap-s in the batch, so that you don't need to worry about it foaming all over the place. Although the blow-off tube is there for that reason.

 

[LarsonLE]

NOT true... You CAN use a 5 gallon carboy as primary. I've done it with great results. JUST be sure to not fill it much over 5 gallons, and/or install a blow-off tube. You could also try using fermcap-s in the batch, so that you don't need to worry about it foaming all over the place. Although the blow-off tube is there for that reason.

Really? Wow, that makes things a lot easier. But doesn't a lot of yeast make it out the tube?

 

[Golddiggie]

Really? Wow, that makes things a lot easier. But doesn't a lot of yeast make it out the tube?

Not in my experience... Last batch I did looked like this after about 12 hours...

The wort originally went up almost to the tape. So I lost some to the blow-off but it's been going nicely. Started it on 2/13... Going to take a sample this weekend to see where it's at...

 

[Yooper]

So my Kolsch has been sitting in the primary for two weeks today, and I am in a dilemma. I want to brew an IPA tonight because I just got my outdoor propane burner and really want to try it out, but in order for that to happen, I need to have my primary fermenting bucket available, which is what the Kolsch is sitting in now. I have a secondary 5 gallon better bottle, that I can't use for primary because it is only 5 gallons. So I was thinking I could transfer my Kolsch to the better bottle, and then brew up the IPA and put that in my primary.

Do you guys think I should just be patient and let the Kolsch stay on the yeast cake for a longer period of time? Also if I were to rack to secondary, would this highly risk oxidation since fermentation is practically complete (I'm already at my FG)? And, if you guys think racking would be okay, do you think it would be a good idea to ferment the IPA with the kolsch yeast that will be at the bottom of my bucket?

If it was me, I'd definitely rack the kolsch and cold condition it as I mentioned earlier. I don't cold crash many beers, and I don't use a bright tank for many beers, but for a kolsch, I would.

I wouldn't use the kolsch yeast for an IPA, though. I'd use a clean well attenuating American ale yeast at 65 degrees for an American IPA.

 

[LarsonLE]

Quick question, is it okay to cold crash with the yeast cake still on the bottom of the fermenter?

 

[ChshreCat]

If it were me, I'd go pick up another primary.

Barring that, I'd go ahead and rack the kolsch to secondary if it's at it's FG. If it's not, then I'd wait to brew the IPA (or get another primary).

 

[AussieBrewerInColorado]

I always use a secondary. It's a PITA but helps clarity and minimize any off flavors from the yeast. There's a lot of argument, but that's just what I do.

 

[aekdbbop]

I use a secondary, because I have 2 6.5gal BB, and 2 5gal BB. I do 10 gallons at a time, so in order for me to brew again, I need those 6.5gals. Its a cycle that I got into, and works ok for me.

 

[AussieBrewerInColorado]

I use a secondary, because I have 2 6.5gal BB, and 2 5gal BB. I do 10 gallons at a time, so in order for me to brew again, I need those 6.5gals. Its a cycle that I got into, and works ok for me.

That too. After a few blow overs in 5 gal, I do 10 gallon batches too and I always primary in a 6.5 then move it a 5 gallon.

 

[LarsonLE]

Is it possible to use my bottling bucket as a secondary for when I want to cold crash? I would think the only problem would be to make sure the spigot is sanitized well, or do you think it would be a better idea to only temporarily store my beer in the bottling bucket, then clean out the yeast cake in my primary, and then put the beer back in there to cold crash?

Or I could just buy another secondary?

Also, how long do you guys typically cold crash for, 2-4 days?

 

[MalFet]

Is it possible to use my bottling bucket as a secondary for when I want to cold crash? I would think the only problem would be to make sure the spigot is sanitized well, or do you think it would be a better idea to only temporarily store my beer in the bottling bucket, then clean out the yeast cake in my primary, and then put the beer back in there to cold crash?

Or I could just buy another secondary?

Also, how long do you guys typically cold crash for? 2-4 days?

The whole point of a cold crash is to get yeast and other solids to drop out of suspension. You generally don't want those solids to be at the bottom of your bottling bucket when you go to package your beer. Why not just cold crash in your primary?

2 days at cold temps is usually plenty.

 

[IffyG]

If you really want to secondary, I'd recommend getting a second bucket or carboy. They aren't too expensive plus you can never have too many buckets/carboys.

 

[ChshreCat]

+1

If you use your bottling bucket for a secondary, as soon as you add in your priming sugar you'll need to stir and then you'll undo all the secondary-ing you've been doing and stir all the sediment back into solution.

Horrible idea.

Even if it's just a bucket fermenter, get another fermenter if you want to secondary.

 

[mybrewshop]

I would use a glass carboy for secondary if you're set on transferring. Those buckets don't seal real good and are actually gas permeable to some degree. Oxygen can spoil your beer.

 

[ChshreCat]

I would use a glass carboy for secondary if you're set on transferring. Those buckets don't seal real good and are actually gas permeable to some degree.

And watch out for the boogeyman under your bed. Oh, and aliens. They like to stick things up your butt if you drive a pickup in the midwest late at night.

Buckets are just FINE for a secondary unless you're leaving it to condition for months on end. Even then, it's probably just fine.

 

[AussieBrewerInColorado]

Personally, I always secondary and only use glass until I keg. I ferment in 6+ gallon carboys and secondary in 5 gallon carboys. Then keg in corny's. Works for me, each to their own.

 

[Jason Walker]

I purchased a Brewers Best Kolsch kit. I meticulously followed the directions and when I took my OG reading it was 1.040 (the kit said it should be 1.042-1.046) so I was a little low.

I read here that instead of transferring to a secondary bucket, to just leave it in the initial bucket which I did for 4 weeks.

Yesterday, I went to rack it over to a bottling bucket to bottle it and took a FG reading of 1.010 (kit said 1.010-1.013).

So my ABV is 3.94% which is lower than the kit range of 4.25%-4.75%.

Just looking for feedback/advice.

Is the issue with my low ABC that I added too much water in step 7 after cooling the wort? I added enough water to "bring the wort to 5 gallons".

 

[mac_1103]

Is the issue with my low ABC that I added too much water in step 7 after cooling the wort? I added enough water to "bring the wort to 5 gallons".

If you got the volume right then missing the OG by a couple of points most likely means that a little bit of the extract didn't make it into the kettle. I haven't used LME in a long time, but when I did I was always really anal about rinsing the can out with hot water from the kettle to make sure I got every last bit. DME will clump when you try to add it to boiling wort, but it's usually not hard to make sure that all the clumps make it into the kettle and dissolve. But anyway, to me two to six points is a rounding error and I'm sure your Kolsch will be fine with a slightly lower ABV.