To scoop out hot break or leave it?

[day_trippr]

As a Hop Stopper 2.0 user and inveterate skimmer, I concur on both counts...

Cheers!

 

[Bramling Cross]

I find other people claiming that they've heard Charlie Bamforth mention that skimming the foam impacts head retention, but others refute it. I haven't actually found a direct reference where Mr. Bamforth clearly states this.

At about 33 minutes in, he mentions a relationship between foam in the boil and foam in the finished beer, but it's not crystal clear how it works (i.e., foam suppression or foam removal):


This discussion goes back and forth, debating the point:
https://www.beeradvocate.com/community/threads/skim-the-scum.424698/

And this message in an AHA Forum thread refers to older beliefs that may or may not be accurate:
https://www.homebrewersassociation.org/forum/index.php?topic=39568.msg485378#msg485378

"Is beer foam negatively impacted by skimming of hot break in the early boil and/or filtering cold break in the chilling process?"​

​

"According to what I learned many years ago, yes it is. May or may not still be true in light of later research."​

Here are photos of Panther Piss, my fizzy yellow 1.045 swill, taken at one minute intervals. This is a 30% corn and rice N. American adjunct lager, a style not known for maintaining a long lasting head. This beer was skimmed and its head retention seems to be satisfactory for the style.*

That’s adequate retention on a style not known for the trait. I’m hard pressed to think that not skimming would make much difference.

*A fan of UK ales, I tend to run my kegs at much lower carbonation values than typical. To get that big billowing head, I poured the beer with the glass much lower than normal below the tap as a means of exciting the big head that you see in these photos. These photos are not representative of my typical pours because I don't put much stock in foam--my beers foam just fine, it's not something I really think about because it's not a problem (skimming or not) that I need to think about.

 

[dtashmore547]

I hate waste, always left with 3 litres in the bottom of my boiler, just throw it in a jug and strain through a very fine bag, nothing wasted and very little trub material in the fermenter

 

[scrap iron]

I sometimes scoop, but not when using FWH in recipes.
I have a question about how much people scoop when doing so. I only scoop the dark beige or brown stuff at the beginning and stop there. Are others scooping that and more of the foam or what?
I don't have any problems with low foam, but I do always use a rest at around 160-162 F.

 

[quantumguy]

I only scoop the nasty dark looking stuff of which there generally isn't all that much of (I use RIMS for my mash, so the wort is pretty clear going into the BK). Never a problem with head retention.

 

[Bassman2003]

To share my experience as a low oxygen brewer, the goal is to not have any foop to scoop. As my low oxygen process improves there is a less and less of the stuff to scoop out at the beginning of the boil. So that is one perspective. It is definitely a negative material but does it do any harm only during the boil? But I would say you do not want to carry anything over to the fermenter.

Another view is if you have a good settling or clarity routine before you transfer to the fermenter, you do not need to scoop. More heavy material as stated might actually help you drop material when you get to the end of the boil. Helping the Whirlfloc do its job. BTW, Whirlfloc does its best work around pH 5.2-5.0, so it is good to lower the pH (knockout pH) before the end of the boil. I like to drop the pH to 5.1 with 15 minutes left in the boil.

 

[Closet Fermenter]

I used to never skim; I didn’t even know it was a thing. Back then, as a newbie to all-grain brewing, and in a work environment where I could listen to podcasts all day long without bothering anyone else or negatively affecting my work, I started listening to a homebrew podcasts. They started talking about skimming and how it was good to do so; I started skimming off the foam. I remembered being dismayed at seeing hop flakes going into the skim/scum bucket.

Then I read somewhere on this site that there may be good nutritional content in there for the yeast; I stopped skimming.

I can’t say that I ever noticed any difference one way or the other. I can say that I would rather not do it, because I can be doing other things rather than standing there with a spoon in my hand.

I have dumped the whole boil kettle in my fermenter before, and found no particular difference; maybe I just don’t have that sensitive a taste. However, once I decided to start harvesting a little yeast, I decided to use a screen to filter out most of the trub from the boil as I fill the fermenter.

It would be nice to know what is the best practice and why. Quite frankly, I would prefer an option that doesn’t involve adding a lot of extra ingredients to the process. Just keeping up with multiple hop additions is plenty complicated for me.

 

[Bassman2003]

Homebrew practice is the wild west. Best practice as in the literature says to just keep most everything out of the fermenter. Large breweries do not scoop the foop to my knowledge. I have seen open fermentation practice where they scoop away the first layer of krausen as it is said to add an acrid, bitter taste to the beer. As with most things in brewing, probably slight differences in the end.

 

[OakIslandBrewery]

I don't skim, never had an issue. Seems like extra work that's not really really needed. I'm sure someone swears by it though and that's fine.

I do scoop, only the crap left in the BK after the boil during clean up. Just before the boil is done I add Irish moss. I then run the wort through a filter before pumping to the plate chiller. The wort us clear going into the FV.

 

[day_trippr]

Biggest reason I skim: I brew a lot of neipas that use a couple/few pounds of oat malt, and that always produces long snotty protein chains that I prefer to remove rather than have them plug up my Hop Stopper V2 mesh and make lautering a pita...

Cheers!

 

[Snuffy]

I'm a never scooper. I just knock down anything that foams up and add Whirflock @ 10 mins. Never really considered it a thing before. It can be pretty gross sometimes tho...

 

[Dland]

I don't scoop anything, but 97% of the hot break gets left behind in whirlpool cone at bottom of BK. The rest gets filtered out into hop spider before wort is cooled and pumped down to cellar. I try to leave hot break and boiled hops out of fermentor, also do not want to put any solids into plate chiller if I can help it.

But brew rigs and processes vary, so what applies to my process is probably not universal.

 

[malhal]

Do you have links to any peer reviewed research papers, or other authoritative references, that support tannins concentrating in the hot break? I have not heard/read about this previously, and would like to learn more.

https://byo.com/article/wort-boiling-homebrew-science/
"Protein and tannins are the primary constituents of the hot break in the kettle."

https://scottjanish.com/how-to-prevent-dms-in-beer/
"DMS might actually concentrate in the foam"

 

[Yesfan]

Non scooper here. I used to try to filter everything out but now just pour it all in the fermenter. I'm a lazy brewer, so the less to clean the better at the end of my brew day.

 

[MicroMickey]

I used to be plagued with boil-overs. I used my stainless steel spoon to stir the foam back into the beginning-to-boil wort and that seemed to work. Sometimes I couldn’t keep up with the foam and I’d have a boil-over anyway. Then I got the bright idea of simply skimming the foam from the kettle to solve my dilemma. I immediately noticed that my finished and conditioned beer wouldn’t raise a head when poured. After a few batches, it dawned on me that whatever was in that foam was the same material that I had relied upon to raise that whipped cream head on my beers that I had taken so much pride in before.

I started to use a mesh strainer to scoop the foam from the top to break it up while trying to push it back into the wort. It works okay but constant attention is required. At least breaking up the foam abates the vicious and messy boil-over problems.

Another technique that works for a number of beers is First Wort Hopping (FWH). I think it lowers the pH of the boil enough to discourage foam from becoming unmanageable.

One good indicator that you’ve had a good hot break is checking the boiling wort after the foam collapses. Spoon out a bit of the wort from the kettle. In a good hot break, you’ll see lots of little flakes in the wort – think egg drop soup. That’s the clumping of albumins (globular proteins), free amino acids, unconverted starch, and fatty acids. All of these contribute to chill haze and beer instability.

 

[Closet Fermenter]

At first, I didn’t scoop. Then I heard a podcast where this guy was talking about scooping his wort like a hawk! I scooped. Then I heard that scooping was maybe not a good idea.
In the end, I went with the “path of least resistance”; no scooping!

I can’t really say that I saw any difference one way or the other. I am going to be a bit snarky here, so don’t get your panties in a wad; if you’re experiencing boil overs, turn down the heat! I never had boil overs except when I did first addition hops. I learned to turn down the heat a little, add the hops, then ease it back up. Guess what; no boil overs!

 

[MaxStout]

Non scooper here. I used to try to filter everything out but now just pour it all in the fermenter. I'm a lazy brewer, so the less to clean the better at the end of my brew day.

Ditto.

No scooping, I let Fermcap-S drop out some of the break (and prevent boilovers). I don't even whirlpool. Just chill, rack, pitch. Path of least resistance. Then on bottling day, just carefully rack off the trub. I usually get fairly clear beer--close enough, anyway. I'm not entering in comps, just want good-tasting beer.

 

[BongoYodeler]

I’m a non-scooper. If anything I just stir it back in, sometimes not even that. I brew 5 gallon batches, boil in a 15 gallon kettle, so I’ve never even come close to a boil-over.

 

[BeerNsteadofH2O]

The only time I see it worth the effort is when I dissolve bakers choclate into the boil for my decadence stout,, I scoop the excess butter fat so it doesnt smother the yeast, otherwise, I see no reason to risk a steam burn when my false bottom and whirlpool keeps most of the undesirables out of my fermenter. Just MHO

 

[doug293cz]

https://byo.com/article/wort-boiling-homebrew-science/
"Protein and tannins are the primary constituents of the hot break in the kettle."

https://scottjanish.com/how-to-prevent-dms-in-beer/
"DMS might actually concentrate in the foam"

Neither of these articles are peer reviewed. The first does not provide any references to support the claim that hot break is tannin rich, nor does it say anything about what causes excessive tannin extraction into the wort. There is also nothing saying that any tannins in the hot break redissolve into the beer during fermentation vs. settling out with the rest of the trub The second article does not even contain the word "tannin." Nothing authoritative in the references provided.

Brew on

 

[sibelman]

skimming the foam

conditioned beer wouldn’t raise a head

that whipped cream head

I've wondered about this for years. Can anyone confirm or deny that skimming hot break lessens head formation/retention? Or that it helps/harms clarity or flavor?

 

[Miraculix]

I used to be plagued with boil-overs. I used my stainless steel spoon to stir the foam back into the beginning-to-boil wort and that seemed to work. Sometimes I couldn’t keep up with the foam and I’d have a boil-over anyway. Then I got the bright idea of simply skimming the foam from the kettle to solve my dilemma. I immediately noticed that my finished and conditioned beer wouldn’t raise a head when poured. After a few batches, it dawned on me that whatever was in that foam was the same material that I had relied upon to raise that whipped cream head on my beers that I had taken so much pride in before.

I started to use a mesh strainer to scoop the foam from the top to break it up while trying to push it back into the wort. It works okay but constant attention is required. At least breaking up the foam abates the vicious and messy boil-over problems.

Another technique that works for a number of beers is First Wort Hopping (FWH). I think it lowers the pH of the boil enough to discourage foam from becoming unmanageable.

One good indicator that you’ve had a good hot break is checking the boiling wort after the foam collapses. Spoon out a bit of the wort from the kettle. In a good hot break, you’ll see lots of little flakes in the wort – think egg drop soup. That’s the clumping of albumins (globular proteins), free amino acids, unconverted starch, and fatty acids. All of these contribute to chill haze and beer instability.

I've made similar observations and since then didn't remove the foam anymore. Head is much better now.

However, I have a slightly different theory regarding what's happening, but the end result is the same. Don't scoop it out if you like big head on your beer.

I think what happens is that, as soon as the foam collapses and creates the egg nog soup like wort, it starts to bind fatty acids. There are millions of little protein flakes swirling around in the wort after the collapse. They are sticky on a molecular level. Once they touch any fatty acid or other foam reducing molecule, they likely bind it to themselves. So at the end of the day, the more little flakes you have floating around during the boil, the more foam decreasing stuff can get bound to it and is therefore removed from the solution.

I think the same happens with tannins btw. It makes sense that they are removed as tannins usually form some bonds with proteins anyway.

Big question for me is, how much of this bound stuff gets remobilised during fermentation, if the trub isn't removed after chilling the wort?

The yeast might break down some of these loose bonds or time maybe does... Don't know. I cannot reliably remove hot break after chilling and my foam is decent. But decent is not great. I wonder if it could be further improved by transferring clear cold wort into the fermenter instead of dumping all in, including the trub.

 

[worlddivides]

I've never scooped before and I've never had any reason to. I've also almost always poured 100% of the contents of my kettle into the fermenter. "Almost always," however, has a few exceptions. I usually add hops in hop bags or in a hop tube, but when I do add the hops directly to the fermenter (rare for me personally, though I know most people just throw the hops in the kettle), I typically try not to get the spent hops in the fermenting vessel, so I'll leave at least some of the trub behind. 95% of the time I just add the full contents of the kettle to the fermenter, though.

 

[Brewer Mike]

Neither of these articles are peer reviewed. The first does not provide any references to support the claim that hot break is tannin rich, nor does it say anything about what causes excessive tannin extraction into the wort. There is also nothing saying that any tannins in the hot break redissolve into the beer during fermentation vs. settling out with the rest of the trub The second article does not even contain the word "tannin." Nothing authoritative in the references provided.

Brew on

When I read that second quote, I was thinking to myself "Doesn't "might" pretty much mean the same thing as "might not""?

 

[MaxStout]

"Doesn't "might" pretty much mean the same thing as "might not""?

Therefore, inconclusive.

 

[AdjunctBrewer]

To share my experience as a low oxygen brewer, the goal is to not have any foop to scoop. As my low oxygen process improves there is a less and less of the stuff to scoop out at the beginning of the boil.

What is the mechanism by which low dissolved oxygen enables less hot break?

It is definitely a negative material but does it do any harm only during the boil?

What makes hot break "definitely negative"?

 

[JohnDBrewer]

I don't scoop. I tried it and it seemed like I was going to remove a bunch of hop material, so I stopped. I don't use a hop spider or bag and frequently first wort hop.