to protein rest or not

[ColoradoHomebrew]

Just finished reading alt bier recipie book in Brewing classic Styles. The book insists on a protein rest, that I have never done. I am considering doing it but worries as I've read that a protein rest with modified malt produces little head. I am using Weyermann Pilsner, which it says is fully modified. Weyermanns own website also has recipies and some with this pils have a protein rest and some do not. Now I go to Germany all the time and lived there for a while and I know German beer never has any problem with head.

So the help I need is, to do the rest or not? Also, wyermann always seems to recommend CACL2 additions to the water. What for?

 

[TyTanium]

Do it. I do a 15min protein rest sometimes and have never had any head issues.

CaCl2 boosts Ca and Cl (duh)...

Here's some reading on what that does:
http://www.howtobrew.com/section3/chapter15-1.html

 

[ColoradoHomebrew]

Do it. I do a 15min protein rest sometimes and have never had any head issues.

CaCl2 boosts Ca and Cl (duh)...

Here's some reading on what that does:
http://www.howtobrew.com/section3/chapter15-1.html

How about a thin watery beer? Palmer says that could happen with the protein rest on fully modified malts. Do you get better results at all?

 

[SwampassJ]

CaCl2 boosts Ca and Cl (duh)...

Hey a rude post. I'm so hip!


CaCl adds calcium to help with the mash conversion, pH control if needed and the Chloride enhances maltyness. If you don't know your current water profile don't mess with minerals. It may push you over the taste thresh hold if you already have hard water. In the brewing science section thee is a water primer sticky that is very good. I would but I'm on my phone.

 

[TyTanium]

Hey a rude post. I'm so hip!

Context, dude. Here's the full quote:

CaCl2 boosts Ca and Cl (duh)...

Here's some reading on what that does:
http://www.howtobrew.com/section3/chapter15-1.html

Not rude or snarky; helpful.

 

[TyTanium]

How about a thin watery beer? Palmer says that could happen with the protein rest on fully modified malts. Do you get better results at all?

Never done a side-by-side, so tough to say if I'm getting "better" results, but never had thin, watery beer. It's not like I'm doing an hour-long protein rest.

 

[ColoradoHomebrew]

CaCL2 boosts CaCL2? Nice.

I have no water report or way of getting one from the county. Would have to buy. 4 batches ago I started using PH test strips in the mash. I must say this is not the most accurate way of doing testing, but here is what I got. Hefe 5.4, Roggenbier 5.0, IPA 5.4 and Amber 5.4. I assume these are hot wort values so the Ph should be 5.2-5.4; however, on the last two I notices it looks like the initial color reading is in the 5.0 range and fades to 5.4 over 3-5 seconds. I recorded the end reading. Could this be the wort cooling to ambient temps so my readins are really cool wort readings? From Ph on my worts, I seem to conclude I do not have hard water, but I guess there is no use adding anything until I pay for a test. Of course our town uses a dozen or so wells at different times so I am not sure how valid a test is.

So it is settles it. I will do the protein rest. If anything, it should get rid of any haze. It will be a pain as I will need to use a kettle for mash and a cooler for sparge, but this may help me deceide weather to modify a kettle for a mash tun.

 

[TyTanium]

I did it all in a cooler - just did the protein rest really thick (<1qt/lb), and added a few qts boiling water to raise.

 

[TyTanium]

CaCL2 boosts CaCL2? Nice.

It doesn't. It boosts Cl, totally different than Cl2. See, I wasn't being snarky

 

[Rev2010]

I've done plenty of protein rests - and most were using Weyermann malts - wheat, pilsner, etc). I've even done a protein rest for my last pumpkin ale (using all modern fully modified malts). Not a single one has had poor head retention or thin body. I protein rest typically at 122-125 for 20 minutes.

I see a lot of people quoting stuff they read about poor head and body. While there may surely be valid honest reasons to the claims I think most people giving the advice probably haven't even tried protein rests first hand and are just regurgitating information they've read.

Not saying this is the case with everyone of course, just a majority scenario. The only time I've personally had extremely poor head retention is when using oats in a Belgian Wit. But oats are well known to have a high oil content that often can cause that.

On a last note, I'll also say I really haven't noticed a marked difference between protein resting and not protein resting. I've done some beers, same recipe, where I skipped the protein rest and just did a beta and sacch rest and there didn't seem much difference. Granted... I've never compared them side by side so I can't say it doesn't make a difference either.


Rev.

 

[ColoradoHomebrew]

I did it all in a cooler - just did the protein rest really thick (<1qt/lb), and added a few qts boiling water to raise.

I can't even get a good mash out in my cooler. If I do a thick mash to allow enough boiling water to mash out, I get a drop of 4F over the mash time. If I do a thin mash w/ min temp change, my mash out barely gets me to 160F (leaving 2 gallons for sparge on a 5G batch). I really think I want to use a mash kettle and a seperate lauter tun (it's apparently what Germans do). If I like the control of a mash kettle, I'll build one with a false bottom and valve for lautering/sparging.

 

[SwampassJ]

CaCL2 boosts CaCL2? Nice.

I have no water report or way of getting one from the county. Would have to buy. 4 batches ago I started using PH test strips in the mash. I must say this is not the most accurate way of doing testing, but here is what I got. Hefe 5.4, Roggenbier 5.0, IPA 5.4 and Amber 5.4. I assume these are hot wort values so the Ph should be 5.2-5.4; however, on the last two I notices it looks like the initial color reading is in the 5.0 range and fades to 5.4 over 3-5 seconds. I recorded the end reading. Could this be the wort cooling to ambient temps so my readins are really cool wort readings? From Ph on my worts, I seem to conclude I do not have hard water, but I guess there is no use adding anything until I pay for a test. Of course our town uses a dozen or so wells at different times so I am not sure how valid a test is.

So it is settles it. I will do the protein rest. If anything, it should get rid of any haze. It will be a pain as I will need to use a kettle for mash and a cooler for sparge, but this may help me deceide weather to modify a kettle for a mash tun.

Have you tried using a kettle fining like Irish moss or whirirfloc? They helped some of my beers (unfortunately not all) with clarity. If you still want to use the CaCl you can use Reverse Osmosis water from the walmart or other store water machine and throw in 1 tsp of CaCl into the mash with 2% of the grist weight of Acidulated malt with it. Then just sparge dwith the remaining RO water to reach boil volume.

 

[SwampassJ]

I can't even get a good mash out in my cooler. If I do a thick mash to allow enough boiling water to mash out, I get a drop of 4F over the mash time. If I do a thin mash w/ min temp change, my mash out barely gets me to 160F (leaving 2 gallons for sparge on a 5G batch). I really think I want to use a mash kettle and a seperate lauter tun (it's apparently what Germans do). If I like the control of a mash kettle, I'll build one with a false bottom and valve for lautering/sparging.

You could try a brew in the bag (biab) in your kettle that way you can do a easier step mash. Just need a way to keep the bag from burning to the bottom and a constant hand ready to stir and a constant eye on the temps.

 

[ColoradoHomebrew]

Have you tried using a kettle fining like Irish moss or whirirfloc? They helped some of my beers (unfortunately not all) with clarity. If you still want to use the CaCl you can use Reverse Osmosis water from the walmart or other store water machine and throw in 1 tsp of CaCl into the mash with 2% of the grist weight of Acidulated malt with it. Then just sparge dwith the remaining RO water to reach boil volume.

I am not really into buying water. I am sure a brewery does not buy water. BTW, just a few times have I had a haze, but I read the proteins from the rest will reduce the likelyhood.

 

[pjj2ba]

When I brew beers with lots of pilsner malt I ALWAYS do a protein rest. Generally 15-20 minutes at 122. I typically have thick rocky heads on these beers with nice full body.

Yes, if you go too long you can break the proteins down too much and will get a thinner beer with poor head. Everyone seems to know this. But what does this really mean? Well, it means that the protein makeup of your beer is very important for not just head formation, but also body. Yet most homebrewers tend to ignore doing anything with proteins and just fool around with saccharification temps to adjust body by messing with the amount of unfermentable dextrins that are produced.

I would argue that that is like adjusting the sound on your stereo with only the bass control and totally ignoring the treble control. Sure you can change the sound by messing with the bass, but you can do a whole lot more when you mess with both!

 

[Yooper]

I would argue that that is like adjusting the sound on your stereo with only the bass control and totally ignoring the treble control. Sure you can change the sound by messing with the bass, but you can do a whole lot more when you mess with both!

That's a really good analogy! I never thought of it that way.

A few years ago, I read some research (probably from Kai Troester, but I can't remember for sure) that in cases where doing a protein rest with fully modified malt that a higher temp protease rest (131-133F) breaks up the large proteins, but without causing the negative qualities associated with a protein rest (body issues, head retention). And to make this rest short.

I'll see if I can dig that up, because that is what I started doing when I do a step mash and/or decoctions with continental pilsner malt. I make very few wheat beers, so I don't have any experience with doing it with wheat malt.

In any case, I found that my results were excellent- a nice firm rocky head with the correct amount of body and a nice mouthfeel. Crystal clear beers, too, and that was before lagering.

 

[TyTanium]

...in cases where doing a protein rest with fully modified malt that a higher temp protease rest (131-133F) breaks up the large proteins, but without causing the negative qualities associated with a protein rest (body issues, head retention). And to make this rest short...

Interesting. My protein rests are 15mins at 133, not the normally mentioned 120s. I've read all of Kai's stuff, so I'd bet you're right it's from there.

pjj2ba - Great analogy!

 

[StoneHands]

Hey, thanks for this info everyone. I'm planning a helles now, and was going to do a protein rest, but I was thinking a lower one, 122 or so, but I'm now rethinking this temp. pjj2ba, what temp do you do this rest typically?

 

[Randar]

A few years ago, I read some research (probably from Kai Troester, but I can't remember for sure) that in cases where doing a protein rest with fully modified malt that a higher temp protease rest (131-133F) breaks up the large proteins, but without causing the negative qualities associated with a protein rest (body issues, head retention). And to make this rest short.

I'll see if I can dig that up, because that is what I started doing when I do a step mash and/or decoctions with continental pilsner malt. I make very few wheat beers, so I don't have any experience with doing it with wheat malt.

In any case, I found that my results were excellent- a nice firm rocky head with the correct amount of body and a nice mouthfeel. Crystal clear beers, too, and that was before lagering.

Yoop, I think my post would read damn near identical to yours (sans the wheat beer comment). I may have also read this in Noonan, but I don't have the reference handy to verify.

 

[DSmith]

The higher temperature protien rest is mentioned a few times on Kai's decoction webpage.

http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?title=Decoction_Mashing

I think he makes a similar comment about the protien rest during that portion of the decoction youtube video.

 

[Calichusetts]

I do it for my pilsners with said wey's malt...no issues yet. I even did my rest for 30 minutes at 130 (easy to remember)...no issues but only two batches under my belt with this method

 

[solbes]

I've totally ignored protein rests with my 7 or 8 AG brews to date. I even did a wheat beer (my first partial mash/all grain brew) whoops. Looks like I will take some of this knowledge into 3 of my next 5 brews: a wheat, an alt, and a Stella clone. So maybe a lower protein rest in the 120's for the wheat, and 132 for the Alt and Stella clone? Time to up my game I guess. Great info here!

 

[ricksox]

Hey guys,

Thanks for all of the useful information on this thread. This may be a stupid question but do you guys do protein rests regardless of the base malt and style of beer you are brewing?

If the rest is to improve not only clarity but also head retention then my initial thought is yes and to just make it a regular part of the mash process no matter what. Any comments on that? Thanks!

ricksox

 

[Yooper]

Yoop, I think my post would read damn near identical to yours (sans the wheat beer comment). I may have also read this in Noonan, but I don't have the reference handy to verify.

You could very well be correct! It could be Noonan where I picked up that tidbit!

Hey guys,

Thanks for all of the useful information on this thread. This may be a stupid question but do you guys do protein rests regardless of the base malt and style of beer you are brewing?

If the rest is to improve not only clarity but also head retention then my initial thought is yes and to just make it a regular part of the mash process no matter what. Any comments on that? Thanks!

ricksox

I assume that I can respond, even though I'm not a guy!

I never do a protein rest on American pale ales or IPAs and the like. I use crystal malt in many beers, and/or flaked wheat (flaked barley in a stout) and get awesome head retention with a single infusion mash. Also for English beers, a single infusion mash is about all I do.

I don't make many lagers, but when I do they are usually step mashed. Often for BoPils and Marzens, they are decoctions.

 

[ricksox]

You could very well be correct! It could be Noonan where I picked up that tidbit!




I assume that I can respond, even though I'm not a guy!

I never do a protein rest on American pale ales or IPAs and the like. I use crystal malt in many beers, and/or flaked wheat (flaked barley in a stout) and get awesome head retention with a single infusion mash. Also for English beers, a single infusion mash is about all I do.

I don't make many lagers, but when I do they are usually step mashed. Often for BoPils and Marzens, they are decoctions.

Thank you very much Mrs. Yooper! That's very helpful.

 

[Obliviousbrew]

That's a really good analogy! I never thought of it that way.

A few years ago, I read some research (probably from Kai Troester, but I can't remember for sure) that in cases where doing a protein rest with fully modified malt that a higher temp protease rest (131-133F) breaks up the large proteins, but without causing the negative qualities associated with a protein rest (body issues, head retention). And to make this rest short.

I'll see if I can dig that up, because that is what I started doing when I do a step mash and/or decoctions with continental pilsner malt. I make very few wheat beers, so I don't have any experience with doing it with wheat malt.

In any case, I found that my results were excellent- a nice firm rocky head with the correct amount of body and a nice mouthfeel. Crystal clear beers, too, and that was before lagering.

I've read something similar. When using under modified malt, raw or flaked wheat or a lot of adjuncts a protein rest of 30 minutes or so at 50 c° (sorry I use celcius degrees)will help, but when using well modified malts the rest should be around 55 c° for a shorter time (I do it for about 15 minutes). A protein rest at 50 will produce shorter chained proteins that will cause poor head retention if using well modified malts. A protein rest at 55 will create more medium size chained proteins in well modified malts. Overmodified malts (like 2 row) do not need a protein rest and the use of one can lead to thin watery beers.

 

[Rev2010]

This may be a stupid question but do you guys do protein rests regardless of the base malt and style of beer you are brewing

Not at all. I most typically do mine with my hefe's and wit's. I did a protein rest at 132 for 20 minutes for my pumpkin as I saw it in a recipe from Briess. I didn't follow any of the recipe outside of the mash schedule and surprisingly it was the clearest pumpkin I've made and had awesome head retention and great body. However, please keep in mind it was a pumpkin so without filtering the beer would probably never be totally clear, it still had haze of course. But I was surprised at how much less particulate matter it had in it and how much clearer it was than all my other pumpkins I've done.... and I used even more pumpkin that time around.

For most american ales and such I don't even bother. It's sometimes hard to figure when you would do one but you eventually come to know when you want to do a protein rest and when not. For example, everytime I do the Northern Brewer Patersbier (100% belgian pilsner malt) I always do a protein rest. You'll get used to knowing when and when not is best


Rev.

 

[pjj2ba]

I don't do a real protein rest with Pale malt, but I've have gone back to mashing in in the 120's and then immediately ramping up to my desired starch conversion temperature(s). I find, on my system, I get a little better body and foam by doing this