Three Philosophers clone help

[eulipion2]

So I'm wanting to brew up a Three Philosophers clone based on the guidelines given in Brew Like A Monk:

Belgian Pale 62%
Belgian Munich 16%
Flaked Wheat 6%
Special 'B' 4%
CaraMunich 3%
CaraVienne 2%
Sucrose 7% (syrup)

Northern Brewer 7.5 AA, 75 min, 30-35 IBU

O.G. 1.089

Wyeast 3787

Working with BrewTarget, I eventually settled in on this:
11.25 lb Belgian Pale = 63.6%
2.75 lb Munich Malt = 15.5%
1 lb Flaked Wheat = 5.6%
10 oz Special 'B' = 3.5%
8 oz CaraMunich = 2.8%
5 oz CaraVienne = 1.8%
1.25 lb Sucrose = 7.1%

1.5 oz Norther Brewer (9 AAU), 75 minutes, about 33 IBU
Wyeast 3787 Trappist High Gravity

F.G. = 1.021
ABV = 8.6%

I know some of the percentages are slightly off, but it's easier than doing fractions of an ounce here and there. Does this look good?

I need some help with the mash though. I'm thinking about 150 for 90 minutes, though I'm pretty sure it should dry out more - BeerAdvocate lists the ABV as 9.8%. Should I mash lower, say 145? I'm shooting for 1.33 qt/lb, and a 75 minute boil. Should I thicken that up, say 1.25 qt/lb?

Also, I will be doing this via Brew-in-a-Bag and No-Chill, so do I need to make any adjustments aside from the hop addition time?

Thanks in advance!

 

[eulipion2]

Okay, I double-checked Brew Like A Monk (my previous post was from notes I took so I wouldn't have to reference the book), and it says this:

OG 1.087
FG 1.020
IBU 30-35

Mash 154º, Boil 75 min

Trying to get a little bit closer to the 9.8% ABV, I bumped up my grains a little:
Belgian Pale 12 lb = 62.3%
Belgian Munich 3 lb = 15.6%
Flaked Wheat 19 oz = 6.2%
Special 'B' 12 oz = 3.9%
CaraMunich 10 oz = 3.2%
CaraVienne 6 oz = 1.9%
Sucrose 21 oz = 6.8%

which gives me

O.G. = 1.095
F.G. = 1.023
ABV = 9.3
IBU = 31.5
SRM = 18.2
BU/GU = .33

I'm still concerned about mashing so high. It's been a while since I've tried this beer (I've been keeping them for cellaring!), and while I know it should finish a little sweet, 1.023 seems a little high. Thoughts?

 

[Champurrado]

This has been sitting there for a while - Saw your post and wondered if you made the Three Philosophers.

Thinking of brewing it.

 

[eulipion2]

Sadly no, I haven't brewed it yet. I've switched to Brew-In-A-Bag and No-Chill, and I want to get my process worked out with smaller (cheaper) before I attempt a beer as potentially expensive as this. That said, I think I've figured out the amounts for a five gallon recipe:

Belgian Pale 12 lb = 192 oz = 61.9%
Belgian Munich 3 lb 2 oz = 50 oz = 16.1%
Flaked Wheat 1.188 lb = 19 oz = 6.1%
Special 'B' .75 lb = 12 oz = 3.9%
CaraMunich .5625 lb = 9 oz = 2.9% AKA Cara 45
CaraVienne .375 lb = 6 oz = 1.9% AKA Cara 20
Sucrose 1.375 = 22 oz = 7.1%
1.5 oz Northern Brewer pellet hops, 9 AAU, 75 min (55 min for no-chill)
Wyeast 3787 Trappist High Gravity yeast
1 12oz bottle Kriek beer (Ommegang uses Liefmann's I think), added in either tertiary or in the bottling bucket.

O.G. = 1.095
F.G. = 1.023
ABV = 9.3
IBU = 31.5
SRM = 18.2
BU/GU = .33
Calories = 354 per 12 oz

Mash: 154ºF, 9.57 gallons of water (BIAB)
Boil: 75 min

Add sugar after primary (3 days), transfer to secondary (3 weeks), transfer to tertiary, then bottle with dextrose and fresh yeast.

Gravities, ABV, etc. are for the beer BEFORE the kriek is added.

 

[eulipion2]

Oh, sorry, it's been a while since I last looked at the thread. Didn't realize I'd already put the recipe up...

 

[Champurrado]

Very nice. Much obliged.

 

[gio]

That seems like an awfully large amount of grains for brew-in-a-bag. How big is your bag and how big is your pot? I guess you must have at least a 10 gallon pot if you are boiling 9.57 gallons. If I were doing this, I'd convert it to a partial mash by replacing all but 2 lbs or so of the belgian pale with DME but that's just me.

Otherwise, the recipe looks great. Let us know how it turns out.

Why wait to add the sugar? And why not more sugar so you can hit your target ABV (which is about 10% if I remember correctly). I just made an Ommegang Abbey Ale (a very strong dubbel) and I used 2.5lbs of sugar in it to reach ~8.0% ABV.

I used Wyeast 1214 and had no problem hitting my target SG in only 3 days of fermentation. (starting was like 1.079. ending was 1.014).

I recommend culturing Ommegang's yeast. They have some good yeast that is great with high gravity beers. They use the same yeast in everything so I'd get it from their abbey ale instead of three philosophers just so whatever yeast the kriek uses doesn't interfere.

 

[eulipion2]

That seems like an awfully large amount of grains for brew-in-a-bag. How big is your bag and how big is your pot? I guess you must have at least a 10 gallon pot if you are boiling 9.57 gallons. If I were doing this, I'd convert it to a partial mash by replacing all but 2 lbs or so of the belgian pale with DME but that's just me.

I use a 17.5 gallon kettle with a bag that fits inside the strainer insert that came with the kettle. That way I don't have to worry about the grain bag ripping and spilling into the wort.

Why wait to add the sugar? And why not more sugar so you can hit your target ABV (which is about 10% if I remember correctly). I just made an Ommegang Abbey Ale (a very strong dubbel) and I used 2.5lbs of sugar in it to reach ~8.0% ABV.

I forget where I read to do that, probably from Brew Like a Monk, but I think the reason is to allow the yeast to work without becoming stressed by higher gravity.

I recommend culturing Ommegang's yeast. They have some good yeast that is great with high gravity beers. They use the same yeast in everything so I'd get it from their abbey ale instead of three philosophers just so whatever yeast the kriek uses doesn't interfere.

Smack packs are easier. I don't really have decent culturing equipment. I'm planning on swirling the kriek to get the yeast into the brew - I want it to get funkier as it ages. Not sure if that's what they do, or if they use a pasteurized kriek, but I like the funk.

 

[tbel]

I was wondering if anyone could tell me how this turned out? Was it close?
I'd love to brew this and may do a 1 gallon batch just to try it. I've never done that so I'll have to figure out how to scale it.

 

[eulipion2]

Sadly, as my brewing budget is a bit small right now, this one has been relegated to "sometime." If you do brew it, definitely post how it turns out.

 

[TwoGunz]

I've been really digging Three Philosophers lately (and Quads in general).

FWIW there was a post awhile ago from somebody who had worked at Ommegang with some info on each of the beers. Here's the Three Philisopher notes I recorded:

Three Philosopher's: No spices but infused with a kriek; Columbus and Sterling hops; Pilsner malt, amber malt, caramel malt; Saccharomyces Cerevisiae yeast

Here's the rest if you're interested... I'm too lazy to go find the original post at this point to give credit:

Abbey Ale: Sweet orange peel, coriander, cumin, and star anise...hops are columbus and styrian goldings

Hennepin: spiced with coriander, sweet orange peel, ginger, and grains of paradise; Columbus and Czech Saaz hops; Pils malt, pale malt, and corn; Saccharomyces Cerevisiae yeast

Rare Vos: coriander, sweet orange peel, grains of paradise; Columbus hops; Pilsner malt, wheat, aroma and caramel; Saccharomyces Cerevisiae yeast

Witte: coriander and sweet orange peel; Columbus and Czech Saaz hops; Pils malt, malted and unmalted white wheat, oat flakes; Saccharomyces Cerevisiae yeast

 

[tbel]

Well I'm definately going to do some one gallon batches. I haven't done any AG myself but I have done a couple of partial mashes and it's given me the confidence that I can do a small AG batch. I recently picked up a couple of 2 gal fermenting buckets so I should be set for equipment.

 

[eulipion2]

Three Philosopher's: No spices but infused with a kriek; Columbus and Sterling hops; Pilsner malt, amber malt, caramel malt; Saccharomyces Cerevisiae yeast

Are those the hops they use now? Brew Like A Monk listed Northern Brewer, but I know these things change from time to time. Would like to stay current.

 

[TwoGunz]

Are those the hops they use now? Brew Like A Monk listed Northern Brewer, but I know these things change from time to time. Would like to stay current.

I don't know. I'm just passing along what I read on here. I'll see if I can find the thread.

 

[TwoGunz]

I don't know. I'm just passing along what I read on here. I'll see if I can find the thread.

Here's where I got it: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f12/ommegang-abbey-clone-122047/index2.html

 

[eulipion2]

Thanks! I'm thinking a PM to the poster is in order, unless he'd like to chime in here...

 

[logan3825]

There was a Brew Strong episode where they interviewed Randy Thiel who used to be the brewmaster at Brewery Ommegang. He spoke about all their beers(at that time) and also about taking a Lindeman's Kriek and refermenting it.

 

[adam01]

How did this turn out ?
How long did you let this age to blend at this strength ?

 

[eulipion2]

Sadly I still haven't brewed it yet. It's been "On-deck" in my sig for months now. I need to brew another batch to empty out the propane cylinder so I can get a fresh one for my Christmas Day RIS brew, so this might be happening sooner than I thought.

 

[cactusgarrett]

I saw a reference in another thread about it, but i couldn't determine if it was confirmed or not: is the Lindemann's pasteurized?

I'm interested in any follow-up to this, as the reference to "Columbus and Sterling hops; Pilsner malt, amber malt, caramel malt" seems somewhat contradictory to the original posting of this recipe.

 

[cactusgarrett]

There was a Brew Strong episode where they interviewed Randy Thiel who used to be the brewmaster at Brewery Ommegang. He spoke about all their beers(at that time) and also about taking a Lindeman's Kriek and refermenting it.

Not necessarily with the Three Philosophers, but has anyone tried using a kreik for infusion in this manner? I was listening to that Sunday Session and Randy stated that they use the kreik "in the brewhouse". I'm just wondering at what point in the process it's used - added prior to pitching, added after primary fermentation, etc.

 

[bmick]

I saw a reference in another thread about it, but i couldn't determine if it was confirmed or not: is the Lindemann's pasteurized?

I'm interested in any follow-up to this, as the reference to "Columbus and Sterling hops; Pilsner malt, amber malt, caramel malt" seems somewhat contradictory to the original posting of this recipe.

This was my thread. I emailed the brewery and they confirmed that regular Lindeman's Kriek is pasteurized, but other versions are not. From the brewery:

We would like to thank you for your interest in our brewery.
The Lindemans cherry Kriek (sweet) is indeed pasteurized.
However, the old Lindemans Cuvée René Kriek (more sour) isn’t pasteurized.

I've got a dubbel sitting on some now, I added it into secondary.

 

[cactusgarrett]

Not necessarily with the Three Philosophers, but has anyone tried using a kreik for infusion in this manner? I was listening to that Sunday Session and Randy stated that they use the kreik "in the brewhouse". I'm just wondering at what point in the process it's used - added prior to pitching, added after primary fermentation, etc.

Revisiting this, as i plan on brewing a 3P clone soon. Anyone have any info on timing of kreik additions?

 

[dmoore714]

Three Philosopher's: No spices but infused with a kriek; Columbus and Sterling hops; Pilsner malt, amber malt, caramel malt; Saccharomyces Cerevisiae yeast

I love me some 3Ps. I'd like to try something like this as a partial grain extract brew. Any thoughts on steeping some caramel grains with a combination of pilsen and amber malt extracts? Also, any idea where to get this type of yeast? Northern had some but they list it as sold out.

 

[tbel]

I love me some 3Ps. I'd like to try something like this as a partial grain extract brew. Any thoughts on steeping some caramel grains with a combination of pilsen and amber malt extracts? Also, any idea where to get this type of yeast? Northern had some but they list it as sold out.

You could harvest it from a couple of bottles. I haven't done it but it doesn't look any harder than wash yeast.

 

[dmoore714]

You could harvest it from a couple of bottles. I haven't done it but it doesn't look any harder than wash yeast.

You can harvest yeast from storebought beer? How so?

Also, any suggestions on the appropriate mix of malt extracts and grains (how much of each listed above) for a partial grain extract version of 3P? And how much kriek should I add for a 5gallon batch?

 

[suprchunk]

You can harvest yeast from storebought beer? How so?

Also, any suggestions on the appropriate mix of malt extracts and grains (how much of each listed above) for a partial grain extract version of 3P? And how much kriek should I add for a 5gallon batch?

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/blogs/nordeastbrewer77/harvesting-yeast-commercial-bottles-1356/

 

[TwoGunz]

Looks like they bottle condition with a different yeast:

http://www.ommegang.com/index.php?mcat=1&scat=13&spclty=1

 

[WPStrassburg]

From a brewery visit the mash was as follows:
45*C - 5 minutes - 113F
60*C - 40 minutes - 140F
68*C - 20 minutes - 154.4F
74*C - Mash off - 165F

Was the same for the Rare Vos, Hennepin, Abbey, and 3 Phils

Dying to get my rims set up so I can get some solid step mashes in and try the 3 Phils at some point.

 

[JoeLindley]

This is an old thread but I'll add to it for posterity. Stardate -310506 (used an online calculator).
Attempted to brew a Rare Vos clone 8 weeks ago. After 4 weeks primary with WLP510, and then 2 weeks secondary with Brett C I bottled. 2 weeks out, after bottling with dry Champagne yeast, my brew tastes faintly familiar to the 3P that I am now consuming. For those who read this, realize that getting a vial of WLP510, which comes out once yearly, is in your best interests. Over.