The State of Low Oxygen Brewing: On Progress, Updates and Review

[rabeb25]

Actually, I'm also interested in including largish Campden/KMeta/NaMeta additions in bru'n'water.

BTW, I notice that some of LoDO updates seem to be do with reducing the amount of KMeta/NaMeta required, and that that seems to be driven by achieving low mineral content for e.g. BoPils or similar. I guess that for e.g. NEIPA, where we are also very concerned about DO, but not about low minerality (we want maybe ~100-200ppm SO4), then we could just keep using large Campden additions (as long as the sulfites end up as sulfates)? I've not read too far into the details though.

Actually the driving factor is sulfites and sulfur. The goal here is less is more, this is not style dependent, though lager yeasts tolerate a lot more.. The sulfites have always been a crude(albeit brilliant) hack to achieve this on our scale.

Ale yeasts HATE residual sulfites and sulfur and in turn spit it back into your beer. Hundreds and Hundreds of batches have been brewed and this is what we have found. I would always suggest not getting your minerals from the sulfite dose. Make the modifications to your processes and augment short comings with the sulfites. Folks get in trouble the other way around.

Cheers

 

[dyqik]

Actually the driving factor is sulfites and sulfur. The goal here is less is more, this is not style dependent, though lager yeasts tolerate a lot more.. The sulfites have always been a crude(albeit brilliant) hack to achieve this on our scale.

Ale yeasts HATE residual sulfites and sulfur and in turn spit it back into your beer. Hundreds and Hundreds of batches have been brewed and this is what we have found. I would always suggest not getting your minerals from the sulfite dose. Make the modifications to your processes and augment short comings with the sulfites. Folks get in trouble the other way around.

Ah, OK. I know some yeasts will throw off hydrogen sulfide (it's the lovely smell of e.g. Harveys of Lewes's fermenters and casks), and I assume that could be easier for them if sulfites are present, maybe more so than sulfates?

Although the opposite seems to be true in wine yeasts: e.g. see https://www.practicalwinery.com/novdec05/novdec05p26.htm

 

[stickyfinger]

The Brauwelt article is amazing. Had no idea that Beta amylase had such a short life.

The rather short half-life of β-amylase
at such temperatures (approx. 18.5 min at
62 °C and 9.3 min at 64 °C) brings about a
fairly rapid loss in its activity (fig. 2). By the
time the mash reaches 67 °C, there is prac-
tically no β-amylase activity. Thus, from
the standpoint of increasing the maltose
content of the wort, the rest at 67 °C can be
deemed largely superfluous.

Wow!

I'd like to see some more data on that. I can't believe that. I have done mashes at 73c, and they keep converting beyond 10 minutes.

 

[rabeb25]

I'd like to see some more data on that. I can't believe that. I have done mashes at 73c, and they keep converting beyond 10 minutes.

That would be alpha's territory, your beta is LONG gone by then.
Brauwelt is one of if not the THE most respected professional brewing journals. I highly doubt they lead folks astray!

 

[stickyfinger]

That would be alpha's territory, your beta is LONG gone by then.
Brauwelt is one of if not the THE most respected professional brewing journals. I highly doubt they lead folks astray!

maybe my mashes are converting in 10 minutes then, and the rest of the time alpha is just increasing unfermentable sugars. seems hard to believe.

 

[rabeb25]

maybe my mashes are converting in 10 minutes then, and the rest of the time alpha is just increasing unfermentable sugars. seems hard to believe.

Most modern malts convert in 10-15 minutes at that high of a temp. Your malt analysis sheets have this figure.

 

[doug293cz]

Most modern malts convert in 10-15 minutes at that high of a temp. Your malt analysis sheets have this figure.

Could you post an example of a malt data sheet that shows this kind of information? In general, I find malt data sheets hard to come by (maybe some maltsters make sheets more readily available, and I'm just using the ones that don't), and I've never seen any kind of conversion rate information. Nor have any of the articles I've read on interpreting malt data sheets talked about conversion rate information on the sheets.

Brew on

 

[rabeb25]

Could you post an example of a malt data sheet that shows this kind of information? In general, I find malt data sheets hard to come by (maybe some maltsters make sheets more readily available, and I'm just using the ones that don't), and I've never seen any kind of conversion rate information. Nor have any of the articles I've read on interpreting malt data sheets talked about conversion rate information on the sheets.

Brew on

Sure all Weyermann (the only malt I use) comes with complete details so I can't speak to others... Here are a few.

http://analyses.weyermann.de/R205-001360-01.pdf

http://analyses.weyermann.de/q230-003360-01.pdf

It's under saccrification time. That is the time it takes @70C to obtain iodine normality.

 

[stickyfinger]

Sure all Weyermann (the only malt I use) comes with complete details so I can't speak to others... Here are a few.

http://analyses.weyermann.de/R205-001360-01.pdf

http://analyses.weyermann.de/q230-003360-01.pdf

It's under saccrification time. That is the time it takes @70C to obtain iodine normality.

might be for unrealistic mash conditions, such as floured malt

 

[Big Monk]

might be for unrealistic mash conditions, such as floured malt

The important thing to remember is that β rest duration does NOT have to be longer than 25-35 minutes for someone with step mashing capability.

Remember that single infusion mashing is a compromise. You pick a temperature that hovers in the ideal β rest ranges and you hold it for longer times to compensate for the fact that the typical β rest temperature (148-149 °F) shows less activity due to β amylase degradation as temperature increases.

You can confirm the speed at which conversion occurs by observing wort clarity through a sight glass. For a typical 2 β rest regimen, you'll see pronounced wort clarity by the end of the 2nd β rest (25-35 minutes).

 

[Paulaner]

might be for unrealistic mash conditions, such as floured malt

You can research MEBAK "Brew-Technical Analysis Methods.” and find out all the details of how this conversion time comes about.

 

[Seattle2k]

You need to turn off the Sophos Web Intelligence Service on your work computer.

Start -> Run -> Services.msc [enter]

Stop and disable any service starting with "Sophos Web"

Don't ask me how I know this...

FYI, there are other web filters that might share the same filtering database list. So, no guarantee that the user was running Sophos. Also, bypassing corporate security software can land some out of a job.

 

[dmtaylor]

Very interesting. I liked the use of sour beer to acidify the mash. On what basis are you making the claim that you are the first to use it, 'Being the first we know of that started using it'. I doubt this can be historically substantiated.

I've used homemade cider vinegar. I have to wonder if this has been done for millennia.

 

[doug293cz]

You can research MEBAK "Brew-Technical Analysis Methods.” and find out all the details of how this conversion time comes about.

Using that search string leads to a whole lot of not useful information. You can find a link to buy the English translation of the MEBAK Raw Materials test method standards for 64+ Euros. But, how many of us are going to buy that?

The one useful link I found is: http://www.gbsinfo.com/SiteResource...Quality_and_Brewhouse_Performance1181344_.pdf. This might save others some search time.

I'll just leave a reminder of one of the HBT forum rules here:

"13. No use of "Google it", or "Try Searching". If a question has been answered before, answer it again or with nicety provide a link rather than copying/pasting content from elsewhere on the forum. Berating or poking fun at "noobs" for not searching will not be allowed.
"​

Brew on

 

[mabrungard]

Super interesting article.

When asked about lactic acid, he became almost frosty, choosing his words with the care of a Soviet diplomat: “There’s a number of elements we don’t talk about, as I’m sure you’ll understand.” One change he was happy to discuss was the reduction in dissolved oxygen in the beer over the last 20 years: “Dissolved oxygen is a total no-no, it imparts off flavors. If you drank a beer with dissolved oxygen in high concentration you’d say, it’s off, it’s not right.”



I found a quotation from an article entitled, Guinness secrets revealed.

Key finding #1 – Guinness does use a sour blend for their stout

No ratios or processes were described, but the brewers did cop to the fact that part of the key feature of Guinness Stout was a sharp acidity contributed by lactic acid.

https://www.fivebladesbrewing.com/guinness-secrets-revealed/

Great information. However, its not definitive that the separately steeped, roast wort Guinness Flavor Extract (GFE) is actually soured. The admission from the Guinness brew only confirms that the GFE has low pH.

The water supply on the south side of Dublin is primarily from the Wicklow Mountains and it is Pilsen quality (very soft and non-alkaline). Just adding roast barley to that water will produce a wort that will have a pH in the mid 4 range. Some might consider that GFE to be sour tasting. So its not yet definitive that Guinness sours their GFE. However, if they stored that GFE in old wooden tanks, its very possible that they develop nice lactic bacteria populations.

The other thing that this article mis-states is the need for high alkalinity water for stout brewing. Guinness' beers are purposely acidic and that condition in conjunction with the high raw barley content, make that Irish Dry Stout very tasty. However, other stout and porter styles do not benefit from having low mashing or kettle wort pH. They taste better when their mash and kettle wort pH is up in the 5.4 to 5.6 range. While the article's statement has validity to the Guinness beers, its not applicable to other styles.

 

[z-bob]

Lately I've been experimenting with brewing with the local very-alkaline tapwater, and acidifying with lactic acid. I'm using 88% lactic acid right now because I had a bottle of it already, will switch to Sauergut soon.

I have no hope of doing the whole low dissolved O2 thing with my current setup, but I've been drinking a lot of German commercial beers lately and brewing German-style ales, and I think minimizing dissolved oxygen might be important to the style... Would implementing some of the low oxy practices benefit my beer, or is it an all-or-nothing thing? (I mentioned the Sauergut because of its oxygen-scavenging)

 

[Big Monk]

Lately I've been experimenting with brewing with the local very-alkaline tapwater, and acidifying with lactic acid. I'm using 88% lactic acid right now because I had a bottle of it already, will switch to Sauergut soon.

I have no hope of doing the whole low dissolved O2 thing with my current setup, but I've been drinking a lot of German commercial beers lately and brewing German-style ales, and I think minimizing dissolved oxygen might be important to the style... Would implementing some of the low oxy practices benefit my beer, or is it an all-or-nothing thing? (I mentioned the Sauergut because of its oxygen-scavenging)

What aspects of the process do you feel you couldn’t adhere to? What is your current setup?

 

[z-bob]

What aspects of the process do you feel you couldn’t adhere to? What is your current setup?

My current setup is an 8 gallon stainless steel kettle (was using a 22 quart aluminum canner until recently) and BIAB mostly 4 gallon batches but sometimes 3 gallons. For low-gravity beers I do a full volume mash, for high gravity beers I mash with 4 gallons and then sparge with whatever the boiloff plus grain absorption loss is predicted to me.

The water here is horrendously alkaline and I'm focusing on that right now. Don't know if I'll have to resort to pretreating the water with lime or not. Boiling would also take care of that, and fits in with lodo...

I boil, typically for 60 minutes, then cool with a too-small copper immersion chiller. And I never can get the trub and whatever hop matter to settle out in the whirlpool, so almost all of that goes in the fermentor. I do use a hops sock, so there's not much hops debris.

Fermentor is either a plastic carboy for the duration, or a brew bucket and then transfer to a carboy after a few days to a week. (just recently started using the bucket; it's so I can top-crop the yeast) If I ever brew a lager, I'll probably use a glass carboy and keep it in that until bottling.

And I use bottles, not kegs. Lots of points where significant O2 can enter the system. I'm not all that worried about staling because unless it's a big beer that needs some aging, I drink it or give it away within a month or two.

 

[Big Monk]

My current setup is an 8 gallon stainless steel kettle (was using a 22 quart aluminum canner until recently) and BIAB mostly 4 gallon batches but sometimes 3 gallons. For low-gravity beers I do a full volume mash, for high gravity beers I mash with 4 gallons and then sparge with whatever the boiloff plus grain absorption loss is predicted to me.

The water here is horrendously alkaline and I'm focusing on that right now. Don't know if I'll have to resort to pretreating the water with lime or not. Boiling would also take care of that, and fits in with lodo...

I boil, typically for 60 minutes, then cool with a too-small copper immersion chiller. And I never can get the trub and whatever hop matter to settle out in the whirlpool, so almost all of that goes in the fermentor. I do use a hops sock, so there's not much hops debris.

Fermentor is either a plastic carboy for the duration, or a brew bucket and then transfer to a carboy after a few days to a week. (just recently started using the bucket; it's so I can top-crop the yeast) If I ever brew a lager, I'll probably use a glass carboy and keep it in that until bottling.

And I use bottles, not kegs. Lots of points where significant O2 can enter the system. I'm not all that worried about staling because unless it's a big beer that needs some aging, I drink it or give it away within a month or two.

Do you direct fire the mash? Do you have a pump?

 

[z-bob]

Direct fire plus a 1650W heat stick. I don't have a pump. My new kettle does have a drain valve.

And one more thing, I use a Corona grain mill.

 

[Big Monk]

My current setup is an 8 gallon stainless steel kettle (was using a 22 quart aluminum canner until recently) and BIAB mostly 4 gallon batches but sometimes 3 gallons. For low-gravity beers I do a full volume mash, for high gravity beers I mash with 4 gallons and then sparge with whatever the boiloff plus grain absorption loss is predicted to me.

Direct fire plus a 1650W heat stick. I don't have a pump. My new kettle does have a drain valve.

DC solar pumps are a very affordable option. They are typically available at up to 100 °C, have NPT threads, and provide decent enough Gpm to move wort for transfers and to recirc. The added advantage of being able to electrically throttle the pump with minimal circuitry is also useful.
We use brew bags as faux mash filters but do not squeeze them. With added recirc you could do the same.

The water here is horrendously alkaline and I'm focusing on that right now. Don't know if I'll have to resort to pretreating the water with lime or not. Boiling would also take care of that, and fits in with lodo...

I would go with either RO or Distilled. It’s cheap enough and it gives you a clean slate. At a certain point, using your tap water is just too much of a hindrance. Your talking 10 gallons at most so <= $10 in distilled water added to the batch.

I boil, typically for 60 minutes, then cool with a too-small copper immersion chiller. And I never can get the trub and whatever hop matter to settle out in the whirlpool, so almost all of that goes in the fermentor. I do use a hops sock, so there's not much hops debris.

Adding a pump will help with your whirlpool. You may want to consider a CFC. Chill times will go way down and if you use BTB/gallotannins, you can help to counteract the effects of the copper chiller.

And I use bottles, not kegs. Lots of points where significant O2 can enter the system. I'm not all that worried about staling because unless it's a big beer that needs some aging, I drink it or give it away within a month or two.

You could bottle with some extract remaining. That would scrub DO but comes with some added sediment in the bottles. The advantages of course are quick, natural carbonation and active yeast to scavenge DO.

And one more thing, I use a Corona grain mill.

As long as your aren’t pulverizing the husk you should be okay.