Belgian Dark Strong Ale The Pious - Westvleteren 12 style quad - multiple

[Colorado68]

If you don't have a jacketed fermenter you can use a fan to gently slow the rise. I don't like to get beyond 80F with Westmalle. That being said, I've seen it climb to 84F without any problems whatsoever.

Any chance your blow-off yeast is sterile/recoverable?

Yes, it was just the blow off container that made a mess, everything in the bucket and coming out is/was sterile.

36 hours later and my 6 gal bucket's lid is seriously bulging. I'm afraid the lid will blow off. Cleaned out the blow off tube and reinserted and set four (4) gallon buckets of paint on the lid to help counter the pressure.
When I took the tube out the krausen just gushed out.

Took some of the krausen and pitched a starter for future use.

 

[CSI - CandiSyrup]

Yes, it was just the blow off container that made a mess, everything in the bucket and coming out is sterile. Should I harvest some for bottle conditioning?

I'll move the fermentor to a cooler place that should help drop the temp.

Yes, when we repitch for bottling I like to use 50-75 billion or so per 5 gallons. As long as it's sterile I would save some for priming.

 

[Bottoms_Up]

Hit 1.086 so a little lower than targeted.

That is a problem with almost all recipes that are designed for either 5 (bottling/kegging volume) or 5.5 gallons (ferment volume).

The recipe in this thread is designed for 5.5 gallons (ferment volume) which results in lower IBUs, gravity, etc. if not adjusted. Properly, recipes should be designed for the boiled volume, NOT the ferment volume (See Jamil Zainasheff, "Brewing Classic Styles"). Although the trub is discarded, it consists mostly of wort, and the proportional volume of solids is very low. For a final 5 gallons batch, the boiled volume is typically about 7-7.5 gallons at the start of the boil, 6-6.5 gallons at the end of the boil, 5.5 gallons at the start of the ferment, and 5 gallons going into the keg or bottles.

Thus the recipe should be adjusted for a volume of about 6 gallons, rather than 5.5 gallons.

 

[Bottoms_Up]

That is a problem with almost all recipes that are designed for either 5 (bottling/kegging volume) or 5.5 gallons (ferment volume).

The recipe in this thread is designed for 5.5 gallons (ferment volume) which results in lower IBUs, gravity, etc. if not adjusted.

By the way, in my experience, most people seem to be unaware of this difference, and end up assuming instead, that their set-up efficiency is lower than it actually is, because they did not reach the specified gravity.

So, by adjusting the efficiency setting, you can actually end up with the correct proportions. Thus I think that a lot of people are actually getting a much higher efficiency than they assume. Rather than about 75%, as many assume, if they adjusted the recipes properly to the boiled amount rather than the ferment amount, their efficiencies will go up significantly, closer to 80%.

 

[Hermit]

It depends on how/when you calculate efficiency. I use the OG, plain and simple. It tells me how much sugar I extracted into a given volume. Now, if you do brewery efficiency, that is what actually goes into the bottle, I guess that would be lower if you don't take losses into account, but most people adjust pretty quickly to assure they have the correct volume.

 

[CSI - CandiSyrup]

Pic of Westmalle krausen capture from a Belgian Pale. Note the purity and color of the yeast. This is about 1.12 Trillion cells or about 12 White Labs vials. This is the vigorous quality of yeast ideal for the Westy 12.

 

[Bottoms_Up]

Pic of Westmalle krausen capture from a Belgian Pale. Note the purity and color of the yeast. This is about 1.12 Trillion cells or about 12 White Labs vials. This is the quality of yeast for the Westy 12.

Has anyone tried capturing the yeast from an actual bottle of Westvleteren? I managed to capture it and grew it in a liter of wort starter. I was surprised at how vigorous it was, based on just a few drops of captured beer - it actually foamed over, and was very creamy and white. Does Westvleteren prime their bottles with Westmalle, or do they use a different yeast? Am I safe to use the captured yeast?

 

[Colorado68]

Day 7... went from 1.086 to 1.025 and switched to an airlock that's bubbling every 5 seconds. Temp got a little low (72) so I put it outside today to help get it back up close to 80. Harvested some yeast from the krausen but it's not white like yours CSI, rather a lot darker so I hope it's good.

 

[CSI - CandiSyrup]

Has anyone tried capturing the yeast from an actual bottle of Westvleteren? I managed to capture it and grew it in a liter of wort starter. I was surprised at how vigorous it was, based on just a few drops of captured beer - it actually foamed over, and was very creamy and white. Does Westvleteren prime their bottles with Westmalle, or do they use a different yeast? Am I safe to use the captured yeast?

Yes and yes. They reportedly ferment and prime with Westmalle yeast, (from Westmalle). No filtering or pasteurization as far as I've read. The only concern is yeast mutation under a higher ABV.

 

[CSI - CandiSyrup]

Day 7... went from 1.086 to 1.025 and switched to an airlock that's bubbling every 5 seconds. Temp got a little low (72) so I put it outside today to help get it back up close to 80. Harvested some yeast from the krausen but it's not white like yours CSI, rather a lot darker so I hope it's good.

Could just be trub in the mix. We have two screens and a device that captures the krausen very cleanly, (pics back a few pages I think). I've noticed that darker yeast in Westmalle is usually just a layer of dead cells.

 

[Bottoms_Up]

Yes and yes. They reportedly ferment and prime with Westmalle yeast, (from Westmalle). No filtering or pasteurization as far as I've read. The only concern that I've heard is that the yeast can mutate under a higher ABV.

Thank you. Then I might try this captured yeast in the Westy clone. I'm quite amazed at how active it is, but then again, I'm mostly used to lager yeasts.

 

[Colorado68]

Day 9 - hit 1.011 (SG 1.086)
so it went to secondary and will start the cool down in a 65° area for a couple days
Then into the wine fridge for 2 months at 50°

Should I expect this to attenuate out any more? (hoping not).

 

[CSI - CandiSyrup]

Day 9 - hit 1.011 (SG 1.086)
so it went to secondary and will start the cool down in a 65° area for a couple days
Then into the wine fridge for 2 months at 50°

Should I expect this to attenuate out any more? (hoping not).

We always rack to secondary when the ale reaches 1.013 to slow the fermentation down.

 

[Bottoms_Up]

This year we're focused on the Single malt version and are pushing to have a replica of Westvleteren 12 that is indistinguishable from the import. We're very close.

Looking forward to the results. Do you have a recipe for this yet?

 

[sikkingj]

Looking forward to the results. Do you have a recipe for this yet?

See post 1 - traditional formulation


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[Bottoms_Up]

See post 1 - traditional formulation

No, I believe CSI was working on improving his own single malt version of saq's clone. See Page 175 of the messages (March 25). He said "We've been tinkering with subtle changes with the Westvleteren 12 clone for just over 4 years now." Then he said that he's very close to making a clone that is "indistinguishable from the import".

 

[CSI - CandiSyrup]

Yes, we have a single malt version that is proving to be a much closer match to the import. We also have a BLAM specification version, (two malt), which is similar to the Traditional but uses less Belgian Pale malt. Both are exceptional.

 

[Bottoms_Up]

I have repeatedly heard how similar St. Bernardus is to the Westvleteren. I let a St. Bernardus age for 7 months, and compared it next to a Westvleteren. There was no comparison - the two tastes were significantly different. I felt that the St. Bernardus was sweeter, with almost a sharp molasses type of taste lingering on the upper palate, while the Westvleteren was much smoother, subtle and balanced in taste (no separate overpowering taste like in the St. Bernardus). The Westvleteren is definitely one of my favourites, while I did not enjoy the St. Bernardus at all.

 

[jtp137]

I agree nothing like the Westy 12. Wish it wasnt $20 a bottle.


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[jtp137]

I know saint sixtus uses open fermentation in shallow square fermentors. What differences do you think this adds to the clone vs the import?


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[Bottoms_Up]

I know saint sixtus uses open fermentation in shallow square fermentors. What differences do you think this adds to the clone vs the import?

I've seen pictures of their open fermentation tanks. I wonder if that attracts some wild yeasts and gives it that peculiar sour molasses taste? Or could it be the additional oxygenation?

 

[Bottoms_Up]

I wonder if that attracts some wild yeasts and gives it that peculiar sour molasses taste? Or could it be the additional oxygenation?

Hope this is still related to this thread, but here's an interesting article about open fermentation:
http://www.brewery.org/brewery/library/OpenFerm.html

 

[Bottoms_Up]

From what I've read, open fermentation encourages the production of organic acids, some of which go on to form esters. So it's possible that some of the difference in the taste of a St. Bernardus 12 that I detected reflects the presence of those acids, acetates or esters. The only difference, though, is that I didn't really detect the strong presence of banana or pineapple tastes. The predominant taste was that of a possibly oxidized, "molasses" type of taste.

 

[jtp137]

From what I've read, open fermentation encourages the production of organic acids, some of which go on to form esters. So it's possible that some of the difference in the taste of a St. Bernardus 12 that I detected reflects the presence of those acids, acetates or esters. The only difference, though, is that I didn't really detect the strong presence of banana or pineapple tastes. The predominant taste was that of a possibly oxidized, "molasses" type of taste.

The yeast strains are also different. Wonder if the candy syrup is also. Wonder where they get the syrups?


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[Bottoms_Up]

The yeast strains are also different. Wonder if the candy syrup is also. Wonder where they get the syrups?

Based on the difference in taste, I suspect that either the candi syrups are different, or the process (open fermentation?) causes the candi syrup to taste different. If it wasn't so expensive, it would be interesting to to make a clone with open fermentation and see how much the taste differs from a clone made with closed fermentation. Alternatively, I wonder what overly oxidized candi syrup tastes like?

 

[CSI - CandiSyrup]

We've been taste comparing the Westvletern 12 import for a while now. We detected a grain bill change last year. The 12 no longer had much of bready fore-palate as in previous years. Our estimation was that they removed the Pale malt reported by Stan back in the 90's. Our best estimate was that they had shifted to a decocted all Pils grain bill. I'm still of that opinion until proven otherwise. Our single malt clone recipe is on our site. Our recipe for the Westy 12 clone was not taken from Aaron's (saq) recipe. It was composed using BLAM as a starting point and further refinement each year.

 

[Bottoms_Up]

SmokingHole has done some interesting work on souring this quad. That being said, the Westvleteren 12 import does not have a sour palate unless a bottle was infected, (unlikely but always possible). The molasses taste is likely from the copper boil rather than the adjunct. St. Sixtus does not permit supplier brand endorsement. (to preemptively answer, yes, Candi Syrup, Inc. products are sold in both Belgium and Holland).

Thanks, CSI. I think I got some of my information backwards. I assumed that it was St. Bernardus who did the open fermenting, but it was actually Westvleteren. The strong molasses taste was in the St. Bernardus, but if they don't do open fermenting, then the candi syrup couldn't have been more oxidized than the Westvleteren. So now it becomes even more mysterious as to how Westvleteren can come out so much more balanced and subtle in taste.

 

[CSI - CandiSyrup]

Thanks, CSI. I think I got some of my information backwards. I assumed that it was St. Bernardus who did the open fermenting, but it was actually Westvleteren. The strong molasses taste was in the St. Bernardus, but if they don't do open fermenting, then the candi syrup couldn't have been more oxidized than the Westvleteren. So now it becomes even more mysterious as to how Westvleteren can come out so much more balanced and subtle in taste.

St Bernardus Abt 12 like Achel Bruin Extra uses a small amount of dark malt which creates a slightly less smooth palate. St. Sixtus uses a premium Candi Syrup with a notable quality difference and cost ber bottle. St. B uses a lower quality adjunct.

 

[Bottoms_Up]

St Bernardus Abt 12 like Achel Bruin Extra uses a small amount of dark malt which creates a slightly less smooth palate. St. Sixtus uses a premium Candi Syrup with a notable quality difference and cost ber bottle. St. B uses a lower quality adjunct.

It's possible that the taste I detect in the St. Bernardus is a result of the dark malt, but it still has that strong, almost pungeant, molasses taste. I agree that it is likely a result of the use of inferior Candi syrup, and perhaps even too much.

 

[CSI - CandiSyrup]

It's possible that the taste I detect in the St. Bernardus is a result of the dark malt, but it still has that strong, almost pungeant, molasses taste. I agree that it is likely a result of the use of inferior Candi syrup, and perhaps even too much.

We've been looking at the St. B recipe for a while. I think the adjunct St. B's is using is a caramel syrup rather than a true candi syrup. It's a little stronger, a little more acrid, and as you mentioned, a little more molasses-like. There is certainly nothing wrong with using a caramel syrup but it does not have the same smooth result as a premium candi syrup.

 

[Bottoms_Up]

We've been looking at the St. B recipe for a while. I think the adjunct S. B's is using is a caramel syrup rather than a true candi syrup. It's a little stronger, a little more acrid, and as your mentioned a little more molasses-like. There is certainly nothing wrong with using a caramel syrup but it does not have the same smooth result as a premium candi syrup.

I agree - it must be the smoothness of the Westvleteren candi-syrup that likely makes it so much superior to St. B. The way the caramel syrup is made is likely a significant contributor in what gives it that strong acrid taste that I dislike so much in the St. B. I'm really surprised that so many others can barely taste the difference between a St. B and a Westvleteren. To me, they are so different that I really like the one (Westvleteren) and dislike the other (St. B) to the point that I likely won't purchase another bottle of it. I've had several, and they were are all basically alike, even after aging it for 8 months.

 

[CSI - CandiSyrup]

One of the LHBS owners here stated that St. B Abt 12 was basically the same as the Westvleteren 12, (he had compared the two more than once). I didn't say anything at the time.

Like you, I can taste the difference. I like the St. B Abt 12 for its uniqueness but it's difficult to compare the two since the recipes are not the same. It has some similarities but it's a little more dry, has dark malt + pils, the hops profile is different, and the adjuncts used are much different. Some compare it with Westvleteren 12 because of similar origins. Westvleteren 12 also no longer uses the St. B yeast, (since switching to Westmalle).

 

[Bottoms_Up]

Like you, I can taste the difference.

What is your personal opinion of what beer comes closest to the taste of Westvleteren?

 

[jtp137]

I am a big fan of belgian dark strongs I have not had one that I can say tastes similar to the Westy 12. I actually prefer the rocherfort 10 of the St bernardus


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[Bottoms_Up]

I am a big fan of belgian dark strongs I have not had one that I can say tastes similar to the Westy 12. I actually prefer the rocherfort 10 of the St bernardus

Great choice! Next to Westvleteren, Trappistes Rochefort 10 is my favourite, although it tastes quite different. I have yet to try the Panneport Reserve Fisherman's Ale. I have never seen it in my location (near Toronto).

 

[jtp137]

Great choice! Next to Westvleteren, Trappistes Rochefort 10 is my favourite, although it tastes quite different. I have yet to try the Panneport Reserve Fisherman's Ale. I have never seen it in my location (near Toronto).

Yes, Panneport is also one of my favorites. Its unique more body and a little bit of a roast. Have not had it in a while


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[CSI - CandiSyrup]

What is your personal opinion of what beer comes closest to the taste of Westvleteren?

Westvleteren 12 is unique, (and delicious). I don't think there is anything quite like it. I like Achel BE, Grande Cru, Gouden Corolus, anything from Westmalle Abbey, Ommegang's 3P, St. B's Abt 12, Pannepot Grande Reseva, and Rochefort 10. After all is said and done though there is still nothing quite like the Westvleteren 12.

 

[Bottoms_Up]

Earlier, I mentioned seeing pictures of an open fermenter at St. Sixtus (Westvleteren). For purposes of interest, here is a link to those pictures:

http://belgianbeerspecialist.blogspot.ca/2010/09/westvleteren-and-st-bernardus-real.html

(See the 6th and 7th pictures downwards).

 

[CSI - CandiSyrup]

Earlier, I mentioned seeing pictures of an open fermenter at St. Sixtus (Westvleteren). For purposes of interest, here is a link to those pictures:

http://belgianbeerspecialist.blogspot.ca/2010/09/westvleteren-and-st-bernardus-real.html

(See the 6th and 7th pictures downwards).

Beautiful pics!

 

[Bottoms_Up]

Beautiful pics!

I'm surprised that the photographer was allowed into the brewery during the fermentation stage! Too bad he wasn't able to take a picture of them adding the secret candi-syrup.