Belgian Dark Strong Ale The Pious - Westvleteren 12 style quad - multiple

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tehnick said:
Might not hurt to step it again to grow a tad more yeast. You can get away with some under pitching but you'll pay the price in frustration troubleshooting and fixing a stuck fermentation if you under pitch too much. My first attempt got stuck at 1.032 because my starter was too small and I had to grow another from the krausen to get it going again but it took a bit to finish because of the stall.
Click to expand...

We've gotten into the same habit too. I know this is a little over the edge but if a vial of Westmalle is more than a couple of months past BUB date I run a "starter-starter" feed it with two periodic shots of O2 and harvest the blow-off krausen for a fresh run. The yeast looks like a light beige snow when its fresh. Starters from this harvested top-crop complete high krausen in about 12 hours. Some very high powered Westmalle.
 
thomascw said:
I will certainly pick up a copy of blam. I know this is was a difficult bew; but was i correct in assuming the lack of color was due to the syrup? Beside doing biab/no chill, i felt like we followed the recipe pretty well. The stout and porter we brewed both got their color from the grain.
Click to expand...

Not only the color. The interaction of Belgian yeasts with candi syrup can create remarkable esters. In the case of Westamalle with dark candi syrup you will get plummy dried stone fruit flavors. The adjuncts are crucial to getting this ale correct in both color and palate.
 
CSI said:
Not only the color. The interaction of Belgian yeasts with candi syrup can create remarkable esters. In the case of Westamalle with dark candi syrup you will get plummy dried stone fruit flavors. The adjuncts are crucial to getting this ale correct in both color and palate.
Click to expand...

gotcha, next time we'll either buy the syrup or be sure it's the correct color. My son burned one batch ; so i think that made him a little gun shy. Still think it's going to be a good beer, just not true to style.

Wow, i looked up d2 candi syrup on google images, that stuff is really dark. Ours was not even close, maybe the color of maple syrup.
 
thomascw said:
gotcha, next time we'll either buy the syrup or be sure it's the correct color. My son burned one batch ; so i think that made him a little gun shy. Still think it's going to be a good beer, just not true to style.

Wow, i looked up d2 candi syrup on google images, that stuff is really dark. Ours was not even close, maybe the color of maple syrup.
Click to expand...

Here's saq recommendation (the author of this thread). He recommends D-180 and D-90 (not D2):

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f73/pious-westvleteren-12-style-quad-multiple-147815/index52.html

Best of luck.
 
Here's a reference pic of a finished/aged Westvleteren 12 clone using saq's D-180 recommended amount. This is about what we're shooting for in color.

Westy 12 Tulip.jpg
 
thomascw said:
gotcha, next time we'll either buy the syrup or be sure it's the correct color. My son burned one batch ; so i think that made him a little gun shy. Still think it's going to be a good beer, just not true to style.

Wow, i looked up d2 candi syrup on google images, that stuff is really dark. Ours was not even close, maybe the color of maple syrup.
Click to expand...

You can also compare how the Traditional Westvleteren 12 clone recipe has grown simpler in grist but more complex in palate:

http://www.candisyrup.com/recipes.html

http://www.candisyrup.com/uploads/6/0/3/5/6035776/westvleteren_12_clone_-_040.pdf
 
a little blurry, but as dark as i can get. like making a two hour roux.at least 3 lbs of cane sugar plus 1/2 tsp dap plus water to cool, plus sugar to thicken, etc. definitely darker than amber and not burned

IMG_20140504_154801.jpg
 
CSI said:
Good luck on your next test!
Click to expand...

I think it's a little thin. Going to buy some d-180 to compare flavors and viscosity. Will definitely have to measure brix as I add since I have no idea how much sugar I added. I'll compare my syrup's brix to the d-180 too. Probably easier to just buy the right stuff, but it's fun trying
 
Well I kinda sorta hit the first mark. Racked three 5 gallon batches after about 12 days at 77F (rising from 63F). 1.012, 1.015 and 1.016. I was using the 1.012 as the gauge - it snuck past 1.013 and the other 2 were lagging a bit. Oh well - shouldn't cause too much issue I hope. They are now in fresh buckets and being crashed to 55-57F for 3-4 days. Then it's into fresh carboys and down to 45F. What a beautiful mahogany color! You can smell the booze coming off it super strong, though.



 
FredTheNuke said:
Well I kinda sorta hit the first mark. Racked three 5 gallon batches after about 12 days at 77F (rising from 63F). 1.012, 1.015 and 1.016. I was using the 1.012 as the gauge - it snuck past 1.013 and the other 2 were lagging a bit. Oh well - shouldn't cause too much issue I hope. They are now in fresh buckets and being crashed to 55-57F for 3-4 days. Then it's into fresh carboys and down to 45F. What a beautiful mahogany color! You can smell the booze coming off it super strong, though.



Click to expand...

perfect timing. I racked mine to keg(secondary) today. I was hopeful about the color in the bucket. But more like a tripel in the glass

IMG_20140506_203412.jpg


IMG_20140506_203800.jpg
 
Got that damn CSI bug... Just snagged 6lbs of Brun Fonce and a 2lb carafe of Simplicity.... 15 gallons of Cuvee Van De Keizer Grand Cru is in the lineup... Need to find THAT thread next.

That, the 15 gallons of Westy 12, 5 bottled wine kits and a 37 gallon conical should max out wine cellar..... Until I trade some and drink the rest....
 
CSI said:
Yep, concur.
Click to expand...

I'm planning on finally brewing a batch of this wondrous beer in the next week or two. I'm ashamed to say that I've been planning to brew it for the last two years but due to unexpected hardships the opportunity hasn't come. I purchased the D-180 for this recipe around 2 years ago and was wondering on the shelf-stability of the product. It's been stored in a cool, dark place the whole time and I'm guessing it should be all right but I wanted to double check before finally starting this epic brew. Do I need to buy more D-180 or will what I have be just fine?
 
opteek said:
I'm planning on finally brewing a batch of this wondrous beer in the next week or two. I'm ashamed to say that I've been planning to brew it for the last two years but due to unexpected hardships the opportunity hasn't come. I purchased the D-180 for this recipe around 2 years ago and was wondering on the shelf-stability of the product. It's been stored in a cool, dark place the whole time and I'm guessing it should be all right but I wanted to double check before finally starting this epic brew. Do I need to buy more D-180 or will what I have be just fine?
Click to expand...

We state the shelf at 6 months but as long as it's not solid it should be fine. For long term storage you can put it into the freezer for a year, (just not the refrigerator).
 
fredthenuke said:
got that damn csi bug... Just snagged 6lbs of brun fonce and a 2lb carafe of simplicity.... 15 gallons of cuvee van de keizer grand cru is in the lineup... Need to find that thread next.

That, the 15 gallons of westy 12, 5 bottled wine kits and a 37 gallon conical should max out wine cellar..... Until i trade some and drink the rest....
Click to expand...

+1 :)
 
I understand that the preferred packaging for this brew is heavy Belgian or champagne bottles.


My question is whether anyone uses flip-top, ie, Grolsch or E-Z Cap, bottles for their Dark Belgian Strong.


I'm not as concerned about creating bottle bombs as I am about leakage that might occur during the extended bottle conditioning time that these ales require.


Thanks in advance,

~Doc
 
teamcoaster said:
I'm not as concerned about creating bottle bombs as I am about leakage that might occur during the extended bottle conditioning time that these ales require.
Click to expand...
i haven't tried aging in those bottles, but i would be concerned about oxidation too due to the rubber gasket drying out. considering how expensive and time-consuming this beer is, i wouldn't want to risk it.
 
It would be a good experiment. If you ask EZ-Cap this question here is what they say:

Question: I have dozens of your bottles and enjoy them for bottling my standard homebrews. What is the maximum atmospheres of carbon dioxide that you recommend for your 32 oz bottles? I would like to bottle carbonate a Belgian style beer in them which will reach 3.5 to 4 atmospheres of pressure (almost 60 psi). Normal beer reaches about 3 atm (44 psi).

EZ-Cap answer: Our bottles are tested to around 120 psi that is when the washer pushes out from under the cap and that form a type of pressure release.
But as always use caution when doing the Belgian .
Cheers
 
it's not the pressure that is my concern, it's that the rubber gasket can become brittle with time. it can crack and let air in. i have had homebrewed sours that were acetic because too much air snuck past the dried up rubber ring over the course of a year or two. but maybe those gaskets were already old & well used beforehand. perhaps using a new, fresh gasket will last a year or three.
 
teamcoaster said:
I understand that the preferred packaging for this brew is heavy Belgian or champagne bottles.


My question is whether anyone uses flip-top, ie, Grolsch or E-Z Cap, bottles for their Dark Belgian Strong.


I'm not as concerned about creating bottle bombs as I am about leakage that might occur during the extended bottle conditioning time that these ales require.


Thanks in advance,

~Doc
Click to expand...

Just a couple of thoughts. Most of the german ales/lager's that ship in grolsch style bottles are usually lower ABV than Belgian Dark Strong ales so I would be hesitant about the rubber tolerance over time. Since the gaskets, (on my bottles), do not appear to be silicon another concern is the transfer of VOC's to the beer from the breaking down of the rubber. I've been meaning to try a few of our grolsch bottles on a Westy 12 as a test but haven't gotten around to it. It's worth a try as an experiment on one bottle but it would not be a long term storage solution :(
 
Thanks for the helpful comments.

So, it appears that the flip-tops have the structural integrity to withstand the higher pressure of a Dark Belgian Strong, but there are questions about their use for long term storage.

My grolsch bottles can accept bottle caps, so I looked at removing the hardware and capping them. However, once the hardware was removed, I noticed that the indentations that provide the anchor points for the wires are pretty deep. That caused concerns about whether the bottle necks would hold up under the stress of having the caps applied and/or from the level of carbonation inside the bottle.

I decided to go over to my LHBS to root through their inventory to see what I might find. I discovered that they had several cases of 500 ml Belgian bottles that take standard size bottle caps. When I learned that these bottles have been in their inventory for a long time I gave them an opportunity to discount the price in order to move some product. You could say that I made the proprietor an offer that he could not refuse. :D

I am now the happy owner of a large supply of half-liter bottles; by Monday, many of them will be filled with delicious goodness, to be put down for a long summer, fall and early winter’s nap.

Thanks again for everyone’s input.

~Doc
 
There is a lot of bottling questions on this thread lately which is perfect timing for me! I brewed the single malt recipe on CSI's website and I am ready to bottle it. What is the proper level of carbonation for a Belgian Quad? Depending on what priming calculator I use, I get anywhere from 2.5-3.3. I also don't recall drinking a Quad and thinking that it is as heavily carbonated as a Tripel. Is it? Should it be? I have an abundance of normal 12 oz. bottles that I would love to use but I will not use them with carbonation over 3.0. I also have an abundance of thick 750's, but I'm hesitant on using those because I'm not sure if I want to open a 750 every time I want to sip on a Belgian Quad. Someone tell me what to do! :D

-Mike
 
The recipe on CSIs webpage specifies 2.5 vols so you should be fine with commercial 12oz bottles.

I used mostly SA bottles for mine for that reason, I really only want 12oz at one sitting.
 
Quads seem to vary.... Avery's The Reverend is on the lower side and maybe 2.6 or so.... while something like Chimay Blue is closer to 3.0 (sure Blue is technically a Dark Strong but there is no "Quadruple" BJCP catagory and Belgian Specialty is way too vague)

Carb to the levels you enjoy and your delivery containers can support
 
LaFinDuMonde said:
There is a lot of bottling questions on this thread lately which is perfect timing for me! I brewed the single malt recipe on CSI's website and I am ready to bottle it. What is the proper level of carbonation for a Belgian Quad? Depending on what priming calculator I use, I get anywhere from 2.5-3.3. I also don't recall drinking a Quad and thinking that it is as heavily carbonated as a Tripel. Is it? Should it be? I have an abundance of normal 12 oz. bottles that I would love to use but I will not use them with carbonation over 3.0. I also have an abundance of thick 750's, but I'm hesitant on using those because I'm not sure if I want to open a 750 every time I want to sip on a Belgian Quad. Someone tell me what to do! :D

-Mike
Click to expand...

I'd probably mirror butterpants' statement on this. There's a range of CO2 volumes for Quads. The Westvleteren 12 seems to be in the 2.5-2.6 range although it is claimed to be higher.
 
LaFinDuMonde said:
There is a lot of bottling questions on this thread lately which is perfect timing for me! I brewed the single malt recipe on CSI's website and I am ready to bottle it. What is the proper level of carbonation for a Belgian Quad? Depending on what priming calculator I use, I get anywhere from 2.5-3.3. I also don't recall drinking a Quad and thinking that it is as heavily carbonated as a Tripel. Is it? Should it be? I have an abundance of normal 12 oz. bottles that I would love to use but I will not use them with carbonation over 3.0. I also have an abundance of thick 750's, but I'm hesitant on using those because I'm not sure if I want to open a 750 every time I want to sip on a Belgian Quad. Someone tell me what to do! :D
Click to expand...

As a general rule, I take a cup of sugar dissolved in ~1 cup of water and add it to a 5 gallon corny and then fill the corny and bottle from the corny. That seems to carb to a level that seems right to my palate.
 
There is a fairly good priming calculator with most sugars listed on the Northern Brewer site. They estimate a little on the high side for a slow-aggressive yeast like Westmalle but it is still fairly good:

http://www.northernbrewer.com/priming-sugar-calculator/

At room temp for 5 gallons to 2.5 volumes they recommend 37g/gallon of Candi syrup. We recommend 33g/gallon. I prefer candi syrup for obvious reasons but it is also a natural and direct food source for the priming yeast and does not require the yeast to break it down prior to consuming. This way you don't get residual gravity sweetness added due to unconsumed priming sugar. For a Westy 12 clone choosing each detail makes the results that much better.
 
CSI said:
There is a fairly good priming calculator with most sugars listed on the Northern Brewer site. They estimate a little on the high side for a slow-aggressive yeast like Westmalle but it is still fairly good:

http://www.northernbrewer.com/priming-sugar-calculator/

At room temp for 5 gallons to 2.5 volumes they recommend 37g/gallon of Candi syrup. We recommend 33g/gallon. I prefer candi syrup for obvious reasons but it is also a natural and direct food source for the priming yeast and does not require the yeast to break it down prior to consuming. This way you don't get residual gravity sweetness added due to unconsumed priming sugar. For a Westy 12 clone choosing each detail makes the results that much better.
Click to expand...

Thanks! Why does it take more candi syrup than most other sugars? (according to the calculator).
 
CSI said:
At room temp for 5 gallons to 2.5 volumes they recommend 37g/gallon of Candi syrup. We recommend 33g/gallon. I prefer candi syrup for obvious reasons but it is also a natural and direct food source for the priming yeast and does not require the yeast to break it down prior to consuming. This way you don't get residual gravity sweetness added due to unconsumed priming sugar. For a Westy 12 clone choosing each detail makes the results that much better.
Click to expand...

Is there any reason not to use D-180 for priming? Your recipe leaves half a pound left over, so I was thinking of just using that.
 
Broham1 said:
Is there any reason not to use D-180 for priming? Your recipe leaves half a pound left over, so I was thinking of just using that.
Click to expand...

D-180 will work fine for priming. Once I get the ester profile dialed in I like to prime with Simplicity as a preference but any candi syrup will work.
 
What a brew day... Amateur mistakes... I forgot to add the lime to my mash until the 30 minute mark... I added the hops at the 120 minute mark (recipe deviation, 120 minute boil, no decoction), I started transferring the wort from the kettle to the bucket without emptying the star san... it was maybe two cups of star san but still... Then I pitched the yeast and buttoned up the bucket in the ferm chamber without getting an OG... I know I am close to my OG... my pre boil gravity was within two points of what BS predicted... Meh, it will still make beer...
 
Gixxer said:
What a brew day... Amateur mistakes... I forgot to add the lime to my mash until the 30 minute mark... I added the hops at the 120 minute mark (recipe deviation, 120 minute boil, no decoction), I started transferring the wort from the kettle to the bucket without emptying the star san... it was maybe two cups of star san but still... Then I pitched the yeast and buttoned up the bucket in the ferm chamber without getting an OG... I know I am close to my OG... my pre boil gravity was within two points of what BS predicted... Meh, it will still make beer...
Click to expand...

I brewed this again on Saturday and missed pre-boil gravity by 2 points. After adding the D-180 I somehow managed to miss 1.093 and hit 1.086 even though beersmith had me in range. Not sure if I have the D-180 values correct in BS but feel like I should've used 3 lbs at flame out instead of 2 but probably would've overshot target gravity. It will be beer, lol.

My burner died mid brew so I had to scramble to the LHBS and picked up a blichmann so I'd be done with burner drama. Seems it's always something.
 
One of the reasons target gravity gets under/overshot is probably due to variations in final volume. Being 32 ounces off, (1 qt), on a 5 gallon batch can throw the FG off by a full 4-5 points (1.085 v. 1.090 v. 1.095).

At 80 minutes into the boil after adjuncts are added we take refractometer readings until we hit target. I use a sterile glass lab dropper to take a tiny sample from the top of the boil. This way the brewer doesn't have to worry about the chilling time for a hydrometer sample and adjusting for temp. You can hit perfect target OG every time :).

A good lab refractometer costs from $80 - $120. A handheld can also be purchased cheaply on ebay for around $10-$15.
 
CSI said:
... to take a tiny sample from the top of the boil.
Click to expand...

The top of the boil? I always stir like mad, trying to really mix the wort, and take a sample as far down as my little plastic device will reach.

Doesn't the denser wort settle to the bottom?
 
UV, once you have mixed it well & boiled, it's not going to separate-it's a homogeneous solution. Trub will drop out (solids that you want to remove anyway-coagulated proteins & hops).
 
Also keep in mind that the sample is little more than one drop for the prism plate. There is little chance that you'll pick up a glob of protein or trub in a lab dropper. If so, get another dropper sample ;)
 
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