Belgian Dark Strong Ale The Pious - Westvleteren 12 style quad - multiple

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jtp137

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My Westy 12 has been aging in a keg for 6 months.


What’s the best way to bottle?


Adding yeast and sugar to a bottling bucket will expose to so much oxygen.

Adding yeast and sugar to the keg, mixing and bottling from the keg sounds cool but I don’t know the exact volume in the keg.

Bottling from keg and then pipetting in small amounts of sugar and yeast seem like a hassle.

Any better methods?
So it was sitting in keg not hooked up to CO2
 

Bottoms_Up

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My Westy 12 has been aging in a keg for 6 months.


What’s the best way to bottle?


Adding yeast and sugar to a bottling bucket will expose to so much oxygen.

Adding yeast and sugar to the keg, mixing and bottling from the keg sounds cool but I don’t know the exact volume in the keg.

Bottling from keg and then pipetting in small amounts of sugar and yeast seem like a hassle.

Any better methods?
Unless you pressurize your keg and fill the bottles using a beer gun or long picnic hose with tap, you have to figure out your volume and add the appropriate amount of dextrose (and yeast). A standard cornie holds about 18.25 liters (4.82 gallons). How far from the top of the cornie is your wort?
 

Jwin

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My Westy 12 has been aging in a keg for 6 months.


What’s the best way to bottle?


Adding yeast and sugar to a bottling bucket will expose to so much oxygen.

Adding yeast and sugar to the keg, mixing and bottling from the keg sounds cool but I don’t know the exact volume in the keg.

Bottling from keg and then pipetting in small amounts of sugar and yeast seem like a hassle.

Any better methods?
I'm planning on kinda doing this.
Since this beer is carbonated at a lower volume, adding a bit to much priming sugar won't hurt anything. I don't remember exactly but I think the target volume is 2.3 so if you ended up at 2.6 or so it would not be that big of a difference. Just pour a little harder than usual and enjoy the nice thick head.
I would add yeast and sugar to the keg while pushing co2 through the gas post(turning on after the lid is open). Then purge the headspace a few times and roll the keg to mix.
You don't want to mix up a bunch of oxygen to the beer via the headspace.
Another option would be to add the sugar in used to a second keg and then pressure transfer it over liquid line to liquid line. That should provide a pretty decent mixture and homogeneous ation of the priming solution. You can then push it out with beer gun or picnic tap Etc.
 

Lele

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What water profile do you recommend for this Westvleteren 12 clone (and Wyeast 3787)? I know Westvleteren water profile, but Brew like a Monk says that the monks treat their water
 

Kee

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What water profile do you recommend for this Westvleteren 12 clone (and Wyeast 3787)? I know Westvleteren water profile, but Brew like a Monk says that the monks treat their water
Here's what saq, the original poster, said in another thread:

"I was thinking about how I would want to treat it, and remember reading that Chimay has a wonderful water profile, and several brewing chemists consider it "perfect for brewing". I think this might be pretty damn close to what Westvleteren shoots for when they treat it.

Chimay Water Profile
Calcium: 96
Bicarbonate: 287
Magnesium: 4
Sodium: 6
Sulfate: 32
Chloride: 13

This fits in with what water chemistry I know about water profiles for dark beers that is also confirmed by BLAM as being desirable for a Belgian Dark Strong Ale."
 

Lele

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Thanks :)
I'll try with this water profile. However, I don't know if Chimay treat its water...
Do you have some information about it?
 
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Kee

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Thanks :)
I'll try with this water profile. However, I don't know if Chimay treat its water...
Do you have some information about it?
That water profile is the end result. Whether that is what they start with or if they have to treat it, I don't know.
 

Bottoms_Up

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This is the existing Westvletern water profile:

Westvleteren Water Profile
Calcium (Ca+2): 114
Bicarbonate (HCO3-): 370
Magnesium (Mg+2): 10
Sodium (Na+): 125
Sulfate (SO4-2): 145
Chloride (Cl-): 139

It is not great for brewing because it is too high in bicarbonates, sodium, sulfate and chloride, so they treat the water. The resulting water profile is a closely guarded secret. However, the above Chimay water profile posted by Kee is likely close to what Westvleteren aims for.
 

Lele

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In Brew like a monk there’s written that the real difference between Chimay’s beers and Rochefort’s ones is the water: Rochefort’s water is harder (even if not so hard like Chimay)
 

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Finally jumping on the bandwagon with this recipe. Picking up the ingredients tomorrow, hopefully to brew this Friday. Yeast is currently in a Belgian wheat beer and I'll pitch onto half of that yeast cake.
 

jturman35

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How did this turn out using this water profile?

Chimay Water Profile
Calcium: 96
Bicarbonate: 287
Magnesium: 4
Sodium: 6
Sulfate: 32
Chloride: 13
 

divrack

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Hey. My beer is sitting at 75f day seven and it's only dropped to .02 so far and activity has slowed a lot. Hasnt seemed to drop much over the last couple days.
Do you think I should try and warm it further or proceed with secondary? Might have underpitch slightly and I top cropped it at day 3.
I suppose I could make a wee starter with the yeast I cropped and add it back in?
Or should I just calm down and leave my baby to develop as she is for a couple weeks before doing anything?
 

Kee

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Hey. My beer is sitting at 75f day seven and it's only dropped to .02 so far and activity has slowed a lot. Hasnt seemed to drop much over the last couple days.
Do you think I should try and warm it further or proceed with secondary? Might have underpitch slightly and I top cropped it at day 3.
I suppose I could make a wee starter with the yeast I cropped and add it back in?
Or should I just calm down and leave my baby to develop as she is for a couple weeks before doing anything?
The orginal poster, Saq, routinely let it rise to at least 82 or 83f. You should at least do that. But when this yeast stalls at 1.020, it is famously hard to restart fermentation. It's really a judgement call whether to try adding more yeast, etc. because that may or may not work.
 

divrack

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The orginal poster, Saq, routinely let it rise to at least 82 or 83f. You should at least do that. But when this yeast stalls at 1.020, it is famously hard to restart fermentation. It's really a judgement call whether to try adding more yeast, etc. because that may or may not work.
I would have if I could. I will maybe leave it a week and if it's not down closer to where I want it I will rack to kegs that fit in my temp controlled chest freezer.
 

divrack

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I would have if I could. I will maybe leave it a week and if it's not down closer to where I want it I will rack to kegs that fit in my temp controlled chest freezer.
Oh btw it's actually Bastogne yeast I'm using and homemade Candi sugar but otherwise basically the same. Probably didn't pitch as much as saq does either.
That'll teach me
 

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Anybody used wyermann abbey malt in this recipe? I was thinking about adding around 1 kg (2,2 pound) of abbey malt to base recipe of New World
 
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jturman35

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I’m going to give the New World a shot next time. I must have done something wrong because the D-180 version has been a disappointment for me.
 

LokiM4

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Anybody used wyermann abbey malt in this recipe? I was thinking about adding around 1 kg (2,2 pound) of abbey malt to base recipe of New World
I have a Patersbier planned and I will be going 50/50 between Belgian pils and Weyermann Abbey malt-I think it’s very appropriate for the style.
 

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Just checked SG on my batch (Pious version, day 31 of fermentation) and it is sitting at 1.015 and I plan on letting it sit for 3 more weeks before bottling. Has anyone needed bottling yeast or should the wlp530 still be viable enough to carbonate in the bottle after 7 weeks?
 

Kee

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Just checked SG on my batch (Pious version, day 31 of fermentation) and it is sitting at 1.015 and I plan on letting it sit for 3 more weeks before bottling. Has anyone needed bottling yeast or should the wlp530 still be viable enough to carbonate in the bottle after 7 weeks?
I started routinely adding wine yeast when I bottle, after having a couple of batches that did not want to carbonate.
 

sweetcell

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Just checked SG on my batch (Pious version, day 31 of fermentation) and it is sitting at 1.015 and I plan on letting it sit for 3 more weeks before bottling. Has anyone needed bottling yeast or should the wlp530 still be viable enough to carbonate in the bottle after 7 weeks?
31 days + 3 more weeks = 52 days which seems excessive... at after a month the yeast should be well done and settled down. not sure what you're gaining by going that much longer (other than time, if you can't bottle for another 3 weeks).

if you had turned this around in 2-3 weeks i'd have said that you're probably OK not re-yeasting at bottling. but given its age, i'd be concerned there isn't enough viable yeast left in there from primary, so i would repitch at packaging.
 

Docod44

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31 days + 3 more weeks = 52 days which seems excessive... at after a month the yeast should be well done and settled down. not sure what you're gaining by going that much longer (other than time, if you can't bottle for another 3 weeks).

if you had turned this around in 2-3 weeks i'd have said that you're probably OK not re-yeasting at bottling. but given its age, i'd be concerned there isn't enough viable yeast left in there from primary, so i would repitch at packaging.
It looks like I mis-read the original fermentation schedule, I thought it was 7 weeks in primary and I never went back to double-check. I'll probably just bottle it this weekend and wait a month to open a bottle and see where the carbonation/conditioning is at and add a bit of CBC conditioning yeast if needed.
 

sweetcell

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I'll probably just bottle it this weekend and wait a month to open a bottle and see where the carbonation/conditioning is at and add a bit of CBC conditioning yeast if needed.
if you have the CBC-1 on hand or can easily get it, why not add it at packaging and save yourself the risk and effort of having to open and recap every bottle? i've got a batch of imperial stout that isn't carbing (added wine yeast but apparently it isn't working) and am cursing at the prospect of spending several hours re-re-yeasting...
 

jturman35

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Is it me or is there something to putting Belgian beer in a bottle that makes it better? Above I commented that this recipe was disappointing at the 6 month mark so I used a beer gun and bottled 20 bottles. After about 3 months in the bottle a room temp the plum and raisin notes started to shine. Lesson learned! Don't brew this and throw in the keezer unless you want to wait 2 years for it to come around. I brewed this a second time and the keg is sitting in the garage for at least 2-3 months before i move it to the keezer.
 

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Is it me or is there something to putting Belgian beer in a bottle that makes it better? Above I commented that this recipe was disappointing at the 6 month mark so I used a beer gun and bottled 20 bottles. After about 3 months in the bottle a room temp the plum and raisin notes started to shine. Lesson learned! Don't brew this and throw in the keezer unless you want to wait 2 years for it to come around. I brewed this a second time and the keg is sitting in the garage for at least 2-3 months before i move it to the keezer.
It's definitely better aged, whether in a keg or bottle. Exactly how long is open to discussion.
 

Docod44

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if you have the CBC-1 on hand or can easily get it, why not add it at packaging and save yourself the risk and effort of having to open and recap every bottle? i've got a batch of imperial stout that isn't carbing (added wine yeast but apparently it isn't working) and am cursing at the prospect of spending several hours re-re-yeasting...
I never re-yeasted this recipe and instead I opened the first bottle after 3 months of bottle conditioning and it was completely flat. I was thinking the batch would be a dumper but I decided to wait another 6 months to let the remaining bottles condition in the basement and I opened my second one a month ago. It was carbed perfectly and tested fantastic! I'll probably open 1-2 a year and track how the flavor develops.
 

jturman35

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I caught hell trying to bottle using my beer gun and gave up. I froze the bottles and used the long beer line, all the tricks to keep the foam down. I could not get the bottles full due to all of the foam pouring out. I haven't been able to get my kegged version to the quality of the bottle version, even at the same age it's a totally different beer. Keg version taste syrupy. Maybe bulk aging in the keg takes twice as long but right now my keg siting in the garage at still isn't ready even after 9 months. I am about convince the bottle version is the only way to go.

I will report back in Sept an update after one year in the keg.
 
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sweetcell

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I caught hell trying to bottle using my beer gun and gave up. I froze the bottles and used the long beer line, all the tricks to keep the foam down. I could not get the bottles full due to all of the foam pouring out. I haven't been able to get my kegged version to the quality of the bottle version, even at the same age it's a totally different beer. Keg version taste syrupy. Maybe bulk aging in the keg takes twice as long but right now my keg siting in the garage at still isn't ready even after 9 months. I am about convince the bottle version is the only way to go.
this beer is supposed to be highly carbonated. it's really hard (for me, impossible) to bottle a highly-carbed beer with a bottling gun.

if folks have tricks to get a 3.0 Vol beer into a bottle with a Blichmann beer gun, i'd love to hear about them. for me, if i want more than 2.5 Vol in my bottle, i reach for the priming sugar & bottling bucket.
 

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The candisyrupinc recipe says to lager at 45 for 8 weeks, which I assume is to clarify the beer. Would cold crashing in the low 30s accomplish the same thing faster?
cold crashing close to 30 will speed up part of the effect: clarification. but there are also chemical, and potentially a few biological, changes that occur at 45*F that might not occur, or occur much slower, at 32*F. will it make a perceptible difference? TBD.
 
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