Belgian Dark Strong Ale The Pious - Westvleteren 12 style quad - multiple

[tehnick]

Despite the simplicity of the grain bill and how easily available the adjuncts are to get, this is a hard beer to brew correctly. I was lucky enough to hit just under the target numbers on my second attempt but the jury is still out on the final product. It's currently aging and has been sitting 3 months.

I paid super careful attention to detail but I can't stress the importance of the yeast quantity, viability, and quality. You definitely want to make at least a 2L starter. I pushed the OG in my last starter up to 1.060. I read somewhere that it helps yeast prepare to ferment HG beers with less stress. No idea how valid the info is but my fermentation went from 1.089 to 1.012 in a total of about three weeks without having to bother with anything.

 

[LakesideBrewing]

I bottled my batch one month ago and it has been conditioning at 72-76 degrees. I put one in the fridge for a few days so I could test it. I opened and it had low carbonation. Definitely not enough. Anyone else need to wait longer than a month to get proper carbonation?

Thanks,
Mike

 

[CSI - CandiSyrup]

I bottled my batch one month ago and it has been conditioning at 72-76 degrees. I put one in the fridge for a few days so I could test it. I opened and it had low carbonation. Definitely not enough. Anyone else need to wait longer than a month to get proper carbonation?

Thanks,
Mike

We bottle condition at 76-78F for 2 weeks. We set the cases aside in about 72F for 6 weeks after that. The repitch is as close to 15 billion per gallon as we can measure. It will continue to carb slowly for months but the classic pssst doesn't occur until after 2+ months.

 

[CSI - CandiSyrup]

On the rise to high krausen the Westy clone will tend to get metabolically hot due to the extremes of pitch and abundance of food. We think the ideal is to keep it in the 77-80F bracket (at the height of krausen). Allowing it to get hotter up to about 82F will still work but lower seems best if the pitch is healthy and adequate. Absent a jacketed fermenter you can use a fan on small stainless fermenters to gently control the temp rise. St. Sixtus uses water cooling, (they have the same challenge).

On the opposite end, if the primary drops below 70F too soon for any significant time we've seen Westmalle fall asleep and slowly eek out a bubble or so for many weeks and languish. It still eventually reaches FG but it's painful to watch and not the ideal ferm schedule.

Having plenty of fermenter headroom for the top-cropping and explosive rise of a healthy pitch is also helpful. In our 17.5 gallon conicals we ferment only 10 gallon batches, (43% head room). Even with this we still get blow-off.

We haven't tried open fermentation due to a lack of a PV, hepa filtered. double door sealed room. Fantastic next step though if I could get the company funding approved to do it

 

[Bottoms_Up]

After having read all the messages on this forum, regarding the single infusion process, there was one issue that was never discussed, and another that was not resolved. I was wondering if anyone could help clarify these issues:

1. Usually, for mashing, a mixture of 1.25 quarts of water per pound of grain is used. In practice, what is a good water to grain mixture to use for this clone?

2. The initial recipe suggests using spage water heated to 168 F. Later saq recommended using a much lower temperature. In practice, what temperature of sparge water seems to work best, and why?

Thank you.

 

[orangehero]

Yes, definitely pro-rate all of the fermentables bill to your system BHE. All recipes are baselined at 75% mash efficiency.

The CSI v40 Westy clone recipe is calculated for 5 gallons at 65% efficiency, not 75% efficiency (at least using beersmith and beeralchemy).

 

[tehnick]

The CSI v40 Westy clone recipe is calculated for 5 gallons at 65% efficiency, not 75% efficiency (at least using beersmith and beeralchemy).

Brewhouse efficiency and mash efficiency are quite different which could be the mixup. My mash efficiency is around 65-70% but my BH efficiency has been as high as 88% in the past but usually 75-80%.

I'm finding when I mash thinner and for a minimum of 75 min I'm getting better attenuation. I've been doing a lot of 90 min mashes and getting great fermentations lately.

 

[orangehero]

How is it possible to have a brewhouse efficiency higher than your mash efficiency?

 

[Bottoms_Up]

How is it possible to have a brewhouse efficiency higher than your mash efficiency?

There are generally four types of efficiency:
1) Mash Conversion Efficiency;
2) Pre-boil Efficiency;
3) Ending Kettle Efficiency; and
4) Brew House Efficiency.

The last is actually the overall efficiency, considering all of the three efficiencies. If the second and third are significantly higher than the Mash Conversion efficiency, then the overall Brew House efficiency will be higher than the Mash Conversion efficiency.

See the following link for more details:

http://www.brewersfriend.com/brewhouse-efficiency/

 

[orangehero]

How can pre-boil efficiency and ending kettle efficiency be significantly higher than mash conversion efficiency when mash conversion efficiency should be approaching 100%, assuming nothing went wrong with your mash?

http://www.braukaiser.com/wiki/inde...cy#What_affects_the_conversion_efficiency_.3F

 

[Bottoms_Up]

How can pre-boil efficiency and ending kettle efficiency be significantly higher than mash conversion efficiency when mash conversion efficiency should be approaching 100%, assuming nothing went wrong with your mash?

http://www.braukaiser.com/wiki/inde...cy#What_affects_the_conversion_efficiency_.3F

Achieving close to 100% mash efficiency in a homebrew situation is unheard-of. Usually mash efficiencies in homebrew set-ups run about 65-80%. There are numerous factors that could affect the mash efficiency. For example, the temperature used, the milling size of the grain, the age/freshness of the grain, the pH, the temperature of the mash, the mash thickness (pounds of water per pound of grain), the type of lautering (batch, fly, etc.), the practice, etc.

Here's an excellent article about understanding efficiency that I think you will find helpful:

http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?title=Understanding_Efficiency

 

[orangehero]

Achieving close to 100% mash efficiency in a homebrew situation is unheard-of. Usually mash efficiencies in homebrew set-ups run about 65-80%. There are numerous factors that could affect the mash efficiency. For example, the temperature used, the milling size of the grain, the age/freshness of the grain, the pH, the temperature of the mash, the mash thickness (pounds of water per pound of grain), the type of lautering (batch, fly, etc.), the practice, etc.

Here's an excellent article about understanding efficiency that I think you will find helpful:

http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?title=Understanding_Efficiency

I suggest you carefully read the article yourself.

Also it's not possible for the brewhouse efficiency to be higher than any of the constitutive efficiencies.

brewhouse efficiency = conversion efficiency * lauter efficiency

 

[jtp137]

On the rise to high krausen the Westy clone will tend to get metabolically hot due to the extremes of pitch and abundance of food. We think the ideal is to keep it in the 77-80F bracket (at the height of krausen). Allowing it to get hotter up to about 82F will still work but lower seems best if the pitch is healthy and adequate. Absent a jacketed fermenter you can use a fan on small stainless fermenters to gently control the temp rise. St. Sixtus uses water cooling, (they have the same challenge).

On the opposite end, if the primary drops below 70F too soon for any significant time we've seen Westmalle fall asleep and slowly eek out a bubble or so for many weeks and languish. It still eventually reaches FG but it's painful to watch and not the ideal ferm schedule.

Having plenty of fermenter headroom for the top-cropping and explosive rise of a healthy pitch is also helpful. In our 17.5 gallon conicals we ferment only 10 gallon batches, (43% head room). Even with this we still get blow-off.

We haven't tried open fermentation due to a lack of a PV, hepa filtered. double door sealed room. Fantastic next step though if I could get the company funding approved to do it

I dont have a sealed room or filters. I have done 5 belgian batches with open fermentation and zero infections. I would try it. There is a great video on the brewing network on open fermentation. They use a fish gutter




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[Bottoms_Up]

brewhouse efficiency = conversion efficiency * lauter efficiency

If my conversion efficiency was 50%, and my lauter efficiency was the same at 50%. does it make sense that my overall efficiency would only be 0.5 x 0.5 = 25%? Shouldn't it be 50%?

 

[CSI - CandiSyrup]

I dont have a sealed room or filters. I have done 5 belgian batches with open fermentation and zero infections. I would try it. There is a great video on the brewing network on open fermentation. They use a fish gutter




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That's encouraging! Different areas of the country have variations in wild yeasts. I may try an open fermentation as a simple trial.

 

[jtp137]

That's encouraging! Different areas of the country have variations in wild yeasts. I may try an open fermentation as a simple trial.

The link

http://youtu.be/X9xT8DHOZFE




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[ultravista]

Yes, we have a single malt version that is proving to be a much closer match to the import. We also have a BLAM specification version, (two malt), which is similar to the Traditional but uses less Belgian Pale malt. Both are exceptional.

When will you post these two new recipes?

 

[jtp137]

When will you post these two new recipes?

Its on their site. They have alot of belgian receipies


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[CSI - CandiSyrup]

As a clarification I've tried to make sure each recipe that we've trialed has a mash efficiency baseline. It should be at the top header just above the fementables bill. I've baselined most at 75% mash efficiency to allow conversion up or down based on various systems. Our Pils report (on Dingeman's) is nearly always max 1.036. If you don't see it let me know. I'm insanely busy but I try to get to edits within a day or so.

 

[CSI - CandiSyrup]

When will you post these two new recipes?

The latest single malt Westy 12 clone is up now. I tasted one 8 months in the bottle this week and it's closer than the 2 malt version in my opinion. Very subtle and very balanced.

 

[rockdemon]

The latest single malt Westy 12 clone is up now. I tasted one 8 months in the bottle this week and it's closer than the 2 malt version in my opinion. Very subtle and very balanced.

And for thosr of us who cannot get a hold of your syrups? Ive talked to the two biggest suppliers in sweden and theyre "gonna look into it". Can i subtitute the d-180 with brewferm candisyrup and get close? The shipping costs to get your syrup here is redicilous...


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[CSI - CandiSyrup]

And for thosr of us who cannot get a hold of your syrups? Ive talked to the two biggest suppliers in sweden and theyre "gonna look into it". Can i subtitute the d-180 with brewferm candisyrup and get close? The shipping costs to get your syrup here is redicilous...


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Brewferm carries the Candico product if I remember. It will be acceptable but not the same profile as D-180.

Shipping from the States in a small order is cost prohibitive as you mentioned. You may try one of our online resellers in Holland. They do sell D-180 to home brewers. Here's a link:

http://www.brouwmarkt.nl/

Cheers

 

[rockdemon]

next monday im going to attempt the pious new world recipe. but with one change.
Ive harvested bernardus yeast, yeah i know they say that they use another yeast for bottle refermentation but some people on this forum has actually used the yeast and claim to have had great success with it.

I harvested from one .75L tripel and one .75L prior and made a .5L starter. Ive now stepped up two a 1 L starter and it smells st bernardus yeast from it and theres krauzen and good activity. in 2 days im doing a 2L starter.
Is it a good thing to make smaller starters(as i am doing) or should i go from the 1L directly to a 4L?

My concern is: How do I know that i have sufficient yeast? Should i lower the OG of the beer just in case i dont have yeast that is hungry enough for a super big beer. maybe aim for a 1090 beer?

Im extra worried with this beer since its so big. I dont want to ruin it...

 

[CSI - CandiSyrup]

next monday im going to attempt the pious new world recipe. but with one change.
Ive harvested bernardus yeast, yeah i know they say that they use another yeast for bottle refermentation but some people on this forum has actually used the yeast and claim to have had great success with it.

I harvested from one .75L tripel and one .75L prior and made a .5L starter. Ive now stepped up two a 1 L starter and it smells st bernardus yeast from it and theres krauzen and good activity. in 2 days im doing a 2L starter.
Is it a good thing to make smaller starters(as i am doing) or should i go from the 1L directly to a 4L?

My concern is: How do I know that i have sufficient yeast? Should i lower the OG of the beer just in case i dont have yeast that is hungry enough for a super big beer. maybe aim for a 1090 beer?

Im extra worried with this beer since its so big. I dont want to ruin it...

Without using a Hemocytometer/Microscope the best means of getting a close estimate is by measuring volume of well sedimented cultured yeast. Packed healthy Westmalle yeast has 4.5 billion cells per ml. Starter volume estimates have a wide range so that method requires experience. We have never been able to successfully culture a yeast from St. B that was anything close to the fermentation profile of the Abt 12 so I'm especially interested to know if yours works. Would be interested in obtaining a sample if it does.

There's a yeast pitch rate doc here:
http://www.candisyrup.com/help-docs.html

Here's an example of the packed measure:

 

[rockdemon]

Without using a Hemocytometer/Microscope the best means of getting a close estimate is by measuring volume of well sedimented cultured yeast. Packed healthy Westmalle yeast has 4.5 billion cells per ml. Starter volume estimates have a wide range so that method requires experience. We have never been able to successfully culture a yeast from St. B that was anything close to the fermentation profile of the Abt 12 so I'm especially interested to know if yours works. Would be interested in obtaining a sample if it does.

There a yeast pitch rate doc here:
http://www.candisyrup.com/help-docs.html

Here's an example of the packed measure:

So youve tried harvesting st b yeast? It smells nice and the amount of yeast is increasing rapidly. Id really like to make a beer without having to order yeast every time. I have all kinds of hops and malts at home. A vial or smackpack costs about 10$ plus shipping which is another 10$. Arent wyeast and whitelabs doing the same kind of harvesting as I do but on a completely other level? Theres a thread on this forum about using st b yeast, the author of that thread says he has had success usinf the st b yeast even though st b claims theyre uaing another yeast for bottle referm. Have your attempts been complete failures?



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[Hermit]

So youve tried harvesting st b yeast? It smells nice and the amount of yeast is increasing rapidly. Id really like to make a beer without having to order yeast every time. I have all kinds of hops and malts at home. A vial or smackpack costs about 10$ plus shipping which is another 10$. Arent wyeast and whitelabs doing the same kind of harvesting as I do but on a completely other level? Theres a thread on this forum about using st b yeast, the author of that thread says he has had success usinf the st b yeast even though st b claims theyre uaing another yeast for bottle referm. Have your attempts been complete failures?



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I forget which beer he said he harvested from but it wasn't the Abbot 12. I think it was a milder offering that was done off site or something like that wasn't it? I remember he said it was a specific beer.

 

[rockdemon]

I forget which beer he said he harvested from but it wasn't the Abbot 12. I think it was a milder offering that was done off site or something like that wasn't it? I remember he said it was a specific beer.

Yeah, the pater(abv 6%). I didnt habe any paters so i used tripel and prior. Theyre around 8%


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[CSI - CandiSyrup]

So youve tried harvesting st b yeast? It smells nice and the amount of yeast is increasing rapidly. Id really like to make a beer without having to order yeast every time. I have all kinds of hops and malts at home. A vial or smackpack costs about 10$ plus shipping which is another 10$. Arent wyeast and whitelabs doing the same kind of harvesting as I do but on a completely other level? Theres a thread on this forum about using st b yeast, the author of that thread says he has had success usinf the st b yeast even though st b claims theyre uaing another yeast for bottle referm. Have your attempts been complete failures?



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Yes, we tried it couple of times and never got a top-cropping yeast. If yours is a top-cropping culture with good krausen you may have something.

Our fermentations attenuated well enough but what we got was a very spicy ale with a profile closer to Orval sans the Brett than St. B. Very spicy with a mild Belgian funk. They were actually very good ales just not the same profile as St. B.

 

[tehnick]

How can pre-boil efficiency and ending kettle efficiency be significantly higher than mash conversion efficiency when mash conversion efficiency should be approaching 100%, assuming nothing went wrong with your mash?

http://www.braukaiser.com/wiki/inde...cy#What_affects_the_conversion_efficiency_.3F

Lots of factors can affect that, one being boil time and the boil off. While the sugars in the kettle will remain the same, the liquid content will concentrate the ratio of sugars to liquid. Just one example.

I have my efficiency set to 68% for my mash but on the latest attempt on my own W12 clone recipe I recorded 70.6% mash efficiency. Once fermentation completed, my final numbers reflect a total efficiency of 78.7% from start to finish. I did a 90 minute mash with a 1.5qt/lb mash ratio. I collected 28L of wort at 1.062 and ended up with 22L of wort an OG of 1.088 after a 90 min boil. Fermentation took around 3 weeks to finish up before I could start crashing it.

79% total efficiency isn't too bad and even I get confused with how the numbers are calculated. That's why I let Beersmith do all of that math stuff. I'd hate to see how my beers turned out if I relied on my algebra skills.

 

[Hermit]

I only calculate mash efficiency so I don't know how the other numbers are calculated but if your efficiency goes UP somewhere along the line then the marketing people are involved somehow. You simply cannot gain back what is already lost. Boil off and concentration does not get you anything back. Your losses are cumulative throughout the process.