Belgian Dark Strong Ale The Pious - Westvleteren 12 style quad - multiple

[Bottoms_Up]

We've been looking at the St. B recipe for a while. I think the adjunct S. B's is using is a caramel syrup rather than a true candi syrup. It's a little stronger, a little more acrid, and as your mentioned a little more molasses-like. There is certainly nothing wrong with using a caramel syrup but it does not have the same smooth result as a premium candi syrup.

I agree - it must be the smoothness of the Westvleteren candi-syrup that likely makes it so much superior to St. B. The way the caramel syrup is made is likely a significant contributor in what gives it that strong acrid taste that I dislike so much in the St. B. I'm really surprised that so many others can barely taste the difference between a St. B and a Westvleteren. To me, they are so different that I really like the one (Westvleteren) and dislike the other (St. B) to the point that I likely won't purchase another bottle of it. I've had several, and they were are all basically alike, even after aging it for 8 months.

 

[CSI - CandiSyrup]

One of the LHBS owners here stated that St. B Abt 12 was basically the same as the Westvleteren 12, (he had compared the two more than once). I didn't say anything at the time.

Like you, I can taste the difference. I like the St. B Abt 12 for its uniqueness but it's difficult to compare the two since the recipes are not the same. It has some similarities but it's a little more dry, has dark malt + pils, the hops profile is different, and the adjuncts used are much different. Some compare it with Westvleteren 12 because of similar origins. Westvleteren 12 also no longer uses the St. B yeast, (since switching to Westmalle).

 

[Bottoms_Up]

Like you, I can taste the difference.

What is your personal opinion of what beer comes closest to the taste of Westvleteren?

 

[jtp137]

I am a big fan of belgian dark strongs I have not had one that I can say tastes similar to the Westy 12. I actually prefer the rocherfort 10 of the St bernardus


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[Bottoms_Up]

I am a big fan of belgian dark strongs I have not had one that I can say tastes similar to the Westy 12. I actually prefer the rocherfort 10 of the St bernardus

Great choice! Next to Westvleteren, Trappistes Rochefort 10 is my favourite, although it tastes quite different. I have yet to try the Panneport Reserve Fisherman's Ale. I have never seen it in my location (near Toronto).

 

[jtp137]

Great choice! Next to Westvleteren, Trappistes Rochefort 10 is my favourite, although it tastes quite different. I have yet to try the Panneport Reserve Fisherman's Ale. I have never seen it in my location (near Toronto).

Yes, Panneport is also one of my favorites. Its unique more body and a little bit of a roast. Have not had it in a while


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[CSI - CandiSyrup]

What is your personal opinion of what beer comes closest to the taste of Westvleteren?

Westvleteren 12 is unique, (and delicious). I don't think there is anything quite like it. I like Achel BE, Grande Cru, Gouden Corolus, anything from Westmalle Abbey, Ommegang's 3P, St. B's Abt 12, Pannepot Grande Reseva, and Rochefort 10. After all is said and done though there is still nothing quite like the Westvleteren 12.

 

[Bottoms_Up]

Earlier, I mentioned seeing pictures of an open fermenter at St. Sixtus (Westvleteren). For purposes of interest, here is a link to those pictures:

http://belgianbeerspecialist.blogspot.ca/2010/09/westvleteren-and-st-bernardus-real.html

(See the 6th and 7th pictures downwards).

 

[CSI - CandiSyrup]

Earlier, I mentioned seeing pictures of an open fermenter at St. Sixtus (Westvleteren). For purposes of interest, here is a link to those pictures:

http://belgianbeerspecialist.blogspot.ca/2010/09/westvleteren-and-st-bernardus-real.html

(See the 6th and 7th pictures downwards).

Beautiful pics!

 

[Bottoms_Up]

Beautiful pics!

I'm surprised that the photographer was allowed into the brewery during the fermentation stage! Too bad he wasn't able to take a picture of them adding the secret candi-syrup.

 

[jtp137]

I'm surprised that the photographer was allowed into the brewery during the fermentation stage! Too bad he wasn't able to take a picture of them adding the secret candi-syrup.

Wonder how deep the fermentor is. I have a 15 gallon fish tank that i use for belgian open fermentation. I would love to try this recipe in the tank


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[jtp137]

Check this out its three parts


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[CSI - CandiSyrup]

I'm surprised that the photographer was allowed into the brewery during the fermentation stage! Too bad he wasn't able to take a picture of them adding the secret candi-syrup.

I certainly understand their confidentiality.

 

[CSI - CandiSyrup]

Open fermentation may not be an essential for this style of ale, just less expensive, more traditional, but might be more risky here. Without electro-static and hepa air filtration undesirable wild yeast here in the US would be a gamble.

Over 5-7 days of open primary the natural oxygen uptake can be replicated with O2 diffusion at about 10ppm.

 

[Bottoms_Up]

Wonder how deep the fermentor is. I have a 15 gallon fish tank that i use for belgian open fermentation. I would love to try this recipe in the tank

I think I read somewhere that for open fermentation, the ratio of height to width of the container should be about the same. There are also variations of this ratio. I read that once the height/width ratio got beyond about 1.2:1, the fermenter was prone to producing localized heterogeneous fermentations rather than a single homogeneous fermentation.

 

[Bottoms_Up]

View attachment 210793

Check this out its three parts

Unfortunately, there were no links on your message, but I searched for it and found it here:



Thank you - it's certainly well worth watching - I really enjoyed it. It's mostly in English, with a small amount of Belgian, which, surprisingly, I could still understand! I was born 175 miles from Westvleteren (left for Canada when I was five but still remember a little of the language), and they more or less speak the same language. They also visited where they make the Panneport, but I especially enjoyed the visit inside the Westvleteren brewery.

 

[Bottoms_Up]

Interesting blind tasting test, comparing the three favourites - St. Bernardus Abt 12, Rochefort 10, and Westvleteren. I was impressed that these two were able to detect how different these three quads are in taste and aroma. In both reviews, St. Bernardus came out last. The younger of the tasters also mentioned how well balanced Westvleteren was, but he chose Rochefort 10 specifically because it was not as balanced. The older taster chose the Westvelteren over the others. I agree that Westvleteren is the most balanced and subtle tasting of the three, and that is specifically one of the reasons I would judge it highly. Perhaps age does affect one's choices - when I was younger, I preferred the beers (and wines) that had strong, radical tastes. Now I prefer the more balanced, subtle tastes. I guess that's also why I prefer some of the German pilsners (e.g. Bitburger, Warsteiner) over all other beers, except perhaps some of the Belgian quads.

 

[FredTheNuke]

I'm surprised that the photographer was allowed into the brewery during the fermentation stage! Too bad he wasn't able to take a picture of them adding the secret candi-syrup.

They can't let us see the Monk Jiz!

 

[CSI - CandiSyrup]

It's interesting to see the discipline. None of the ingredients, brands, percentages, or even mash temps are discussed at St. Sixtus.

 

[Bottoms_Up]

It's interesting to see the discipline. None of the ingredients, brands, percentages, or even mash temps are discussed at St. Sixtus.

It's all about backward engineering. You and saq in particular, have done an incredible job at doing just that. Saq for the refinement of his recipe, and you, particularly for your involvement in the refinement of the all-important ingredient - the Candi Syrup. I thank you both for that, as well as the numerous other very helpful tips and suggestions by the other posters. I have now read each message on this forum at least twice, and the first 100 pages of messages three times. I have made copious notes, have most of the ingredients (they were out of D-90) and will be ready to brew this clone in August after my return from a vacation.

 

[jtp137]

CSI looking at your single malt version it looks like its 14% D-180 and the rest Pils. I usually get 87% efficiency. Should I scale all ingredients to adjust the efficiency or should I keep the 2.5 pounds of D-180 and just scale the pils


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[rockdemon]

Im going to attempt a slightly edited version of this tomorrow(og 1080). I have a 1 month old wyeast smackpack. Do i really need a starter when im only doing a half batch ? i tried to use the mrmalty calc but i cant figure out how it works since i cannot add the FG im aiming for... it doesnt say anything about fg at all?

Ive seen that alot of people seem to think that secondary fermenation isnt necessary, is it necessary in this case? I dont do secondaries because i dont want to mess with it(fear of ruining it with air and bacteria) but ive never done a beer that takes this long before bottling...

 

[Bottoms_Up]

Ive seen that alot of people seem to think that secondary fermenation isnt necessary, is it necessary in this case?

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but, based on my understanding, secondaries aren't necessary when you're only leaving the beer on the dead yeast/trub for relatively short periods of time, such as doing lower alcohol ales. In this case, because you are "lagering" (actually just keeping the beer at about 50-55F) for months, you don't want to keep the beer on the dead yeast/trub for that long because it will likely impart unwanted tastes to the profile. Thus you want to rack the beer off the sediment by using a secondary.

 

[FredTheNuke]

Secondary fermentation AND a properly sized starter are paramount to this brew. Skip either and you will miss the mark.

 

[CSI - CandiSyrup]

CSI looking at your single malt version it looks like its 14% D-180 and the rest Pils. I usually get 87% efficiency. Should I scale all ingredients to adjust the efficiency or should I keep the 2.5 pounds of D-180 and just scale the pils


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Yes, definitely pro-rate all of the fermentables bill to your system BHE. All recipes are baselined at 75% mash efficiency.

 

[CSI - CandiSyrup]

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but, based on my understanding, secondaries aren't necessary when you're only leaving the beer on the dead yeast/trub for relatively short periods of time, such as doing lower alcohol ales. In this case, because you are "lagering" (actually just keeping the beer at about 50-55F) for months, you don't want to keep the beer on the dead yeast/trub for that long because it will likely impart unwanted tastes to the profile. Thus you want to rack the beer off the sediment by using a secondary.

Concur. High ABV languishing primaries does tend to lend itself to off flavors and *some* autolysis. Years back we used to use the method of languishing this ale in primary but quickly changed to the BLAM reported racking for a crisper/cleaner ale.

 

[CSI - CandiSyrup]

Secondary fermentation AND a properly sized starter are paramount to this brew. Skip either and you will miss the mark.

I would second this good advice. Would also like to add that the starter (or harvested krausen) needs to be of the highest quality and vigor. We also measure yeast in compacted ml, (4.5 billion per ml), rather than estimating counts by starter size.

 

[CSI - CandiSyrup]

Im going to attempt a slightly edited version of this tomorrow(og 1080). I have a 1 month old wyeast smackpack. Do i really need a starter when im only doing a half batch ? i tried to use the mrmalty calc but i cant figure out how it works since i cannot add the FG im aiming for... it doesnt say anything about fg at all?

Ive seen that alot of people seem to think that secondary fermenation isnt necessary, is it necessary in this case? I dont do secondaries because i dont want to mess with it(fear of ruining it with air and bacteria) but ive never done a beer that takes this long before bottling...

Yes, you will need 280-300 billion cells for 1.080/5 gal. One smack pack will deliver about 100-120 Billion.

Secondary is more of a slow landing for this clone. Once you reach 1.013 in primary the secondary will consume a point or so.

 

[CSI - CandiSyrup]

This ale is precise and a constant labor. There is no detail that can be overlooked from grain freshness and yeast vigor to final cellar temp. Once it's right and you taste it, it's all worth it.

 

[CSI - CandiSyrup]

Im going to attempt a slightly edited version of this tomorrow(og 1080). I have a 1 month old wyeast smackpack. Do i really need a starter when im only doing a half batch ? i tried to use the mrmalty calc but i cant figure out how it works since i cannot add the FG im aiming for... it doesnt say anything about fg at all?

Ive seen that alot of people seem to think that secondary fermenation isnt necessary, is it necessary in this case? I dont do secondaries because i dont want to mess with it(fear of ruining it with air and bacteria) but ive never done a beer that takes this long before bottling...

Almost forgot. This is a pitch rate doc for most gravities, (and Belgian ales).

http://www.candisyrup.com/uploads/6/0/3/5/6035776/pitching_rates_-_rev_1.14.pdf