the BJCP so called certification drives me crazy

[Hwk-I-St8]

I rarely brew "to style". I much prefer to brew "to taste"...my taste. That's the beauty of brewing beer: I get to brew what I want to drink.

That being said, I have entered several competitions (and stewarded one), one of which was the National Homebrew comp in '18. I took great care to brew to style and I'm extremely confident that both my entries were to style. One was a really exceptional example where the feedback was that it was too hoppy and wasn't the easy drinking, approachable beer expected for the style. It was very clear that they weren't judging my beer...it was in no way, shape or form hoppy and several co-workers who drink macros really enjoyed it. Clearly the very definition of easy drinking and approachable. It was also a competition-proven recipe.

The other had prominent diacetyl, yet scored a 34 with no mention of the flaw.

I can only assume there was a mixup of bottles as the tasting notes did not even come close to fitting either beer (across a number of judges)

The bottom line for me is that I'd only enter a comp where I hand deliver my beers and where the flight sizes are reasonable. Even then, I'm generally not that interested in brewing to style so I won't do much.

We do have 4 BJCP judges in our homebrew club that I trust. I get great feedback from them regardless of whether my beer is "to style" so that's good enough for me. I also have a cadre of serious beer nerd friends who literally travel around the country to visit breweries, attend releases and festivals or just to get beer we can't get here. We get together to share great beer on a regular basis. I get great feedback from them. They don't give me the brewer's perspective you get from a judge, but they've all had many of the best beers in the world and have very experienced palates. They know good beer I trust them with the subjective "wow, that's amazing" or "It tastes grassy" type feedback.

I've thought about becoming a judge, but after stewarding the National event at the KC location...no way. Those judges looked like they were hating beer by the end. More than once I had a judge ask how many more, let out a deep sigh and "really?" when I replied. They were burned out. They did appear to take the role seriously and I saw some intense discussions at the mini-bos level. Also, there are styles I really would not want to score.

 

[kingmatt]

I rarely brew "to style". I much prefer to brew "to taste"...my taste. That's the beauty of brewing beer: I get to brew what I want to drink.

That being said, I have entered several competitions (and stewarded one), one of which was the National Homebrew comp in '18. I took great care to brew to style and I'm extremely confident that both my entries were to style. One was a really exceptional example where the feedback was that it was too hoppy and wasn't the easy drinking, approachable beer expected for the style. It was very clear that they weren't judging my beer...it was in no way, shape or form hoppy and several co-workers who drink macros really enjoyed it. Clearly the very definition of easy drinking and approachable. It was also a competition-proven recipe.

The other had prominent diacetyl, yet scored a 34 with no mention of the flaw.

I can only assume there was a mixup of bottles as the tasting notes did not even come close to fitting either beer (across a number of judges)

The bottom line for me is that I'd only enter a comp where I hand deliver my beers and where the flight sizes are reasonable. Even then, I'm generally not that interested in brewing to style so I won't do much.

We do have 4 BJCP judges in our homebrew club that I trust. I get great feedback from them regardless of whether my beer is "to style" so that's good enough for me. I also have a cadre of serious beer nerd friends who literally travel around the country to visit breweries, attend releases and festivals or just to get beer we can't get here. We get together to share great beer on a regular basis. I get great feedback from them. They don't give me the brewer's perspective you get from a judge, but they've all had many of the best beers in the world and have very experienced palates. They know good beer I trust them with the subjective "wow, that's amazing" or "It tastes grassy" type feedback.

I've thought about becoming a judge, but after stewarding the National event at the KC location...no way. Those judges looked like they were hating beer by the end. More than once I had a judge ask how many more, let out a deep sigh and "really?" when I replied. They were burned out. They did appear to take the role seriously and I saw some intense discussions at the mini-bos level. Also, there are styles I really would not want to score.

I'm sure your beers were very good, so this is not pointed at you specifically, but I'd also argue that the vast majority of people that enter these competitions, especially NHC, also feel their beer is excellent and perfect to style. As someone who has judged 20+ competitions, the vast majority of the beers entered are not excellent and perfect to style. Getting critical feedback on a beer you feel is world class is never easy and that sometimes leads to people complaining that the judges or competitions in general suck. Maybe true maybe not.

 

[Hwk-I-St8]

I'm sure your beers were very good, so this is not pointed at you specifically, but I'd also argue that the vast majority of people that enter these competitions, especially NHC, also feel their beer is excellent and perfect to style. As someone who has judged 20+ competitions, the vast majority of the beers entered are not excellent and perfect to style. Getting critical feedback on a beer you feel is world class is never easy and that sometimes leads to people complaining that the judges or competitions in general suck. Maybe true maybe not.

I can say this unequivocally:
The blonde ale was not hoppy and bitter. Not even close. If they'd said it was grainy...I'd have bought that. Hoppy, bitter, not approachable...that is so far removed from what the beer was that it just doesn't make sense.
The diacetyl was intense in the IPA. The judges in my homebrew club recognized it instantly (as did I...only sent it in because I'd committed to it).

I didn't expect a gold medal for the blonde ale, and some useful feedback would have been gratefully accepted. I don't know if you could realistically make it less bitter and hoppy.
Then to score a 34 on a diacetyl laden dumper....I guess I should be happy about that? I dumped the keg after I bottled...it was undrinkable.

You're not the first person to imply that maybe I just wasn't open to criticism and that's fine.

 

[kingmatt]

I can say this unequivocally:
The blonde ale was not hoppy and bitter. Not even close. If they'd said it was grainy...I'd have bought that. Hoppy, bitter, not approachable...that is so far removed from what the beer was that it just doesn't make sense.
The diacetyl was intense in the IPA. The judges in my homebrew club recognized it instantly (as did I...only sent it in because I'd committed to it).

I didn't expect a gold medal for the blonde ale, and some useful feedback would have been gratefully accepted. I don't know if you could realistically make it less bitter and hoppy.
Then to score a 34 on a diacetyl laden dumper....I guess I should be happy about that? I dumped the keg after I bottled...it was undrinkable.

You're not the first person to imply that maybe I just wasn't open to criticism and that's fine.

I made it clear that my comments were not intended to be toward you in particular (how would I know what your beer tastes like?), your situation just reminded me of another issue that leads to people bashing judges and competitions.

Mix-up definitely do happen and I always ask the competition coordinator if the brewer has any other entries when I am judging something that seems majorly off, in case the entries got switched up or something.

 

[Hwk-I-St8]

I made it clear that my comments were not intended to be toward you in particular (how would I know what your beer tastes like?), your situation just reminded me of another issue that leads to people bashing judges and competitions.

Mix-up definitely do happen and I always ask the competition coordinator if the brewer has any other entries when I am judging something that seems majorly off, in case the entries got switched up or something.

If mine had gotten mixed up, I would have expected comments about the diacetyl in the one judged in the blonde ale category then. Also, I don't think a beer that really is a blonde ale would score a 34 in a specialty IPA category. Especially one with a whopping 1 oz of low AA hops in a 5 gallon batch.

 

[Bobby_M]

I wouldn't go as far to say BJCP certification is meaningless. There are degrees of ranking and the higher you go up the chain, the more LIKELY it is that judge has a good palate and the complimentary vocabulary to describe the way the beer is. I know of a few judges that have sat across from me that shouldn't be doing it so it is possible to get recognized (squeaking by). Just like getting a driver's license, they don't keep testing your competence over time. IMHO, the bigger problem is the shortage of certified judges to the point where most comps that are trying to grow large are sitting average beer drinkers down and putting a score sheet in front of them.

Snarky answer: If it's so easy to become certified, you try it.

 

[Bobby_M]

And in addition, bjcp tries to define styles from other countries and... Come on... Why should an American, living in the USA define a style for a Belgian beer? That's just wrong. And it often is literally wrong as the style is described more based on personal imagination than on reality in the respective country.

So overall, nope.

This is ridiculous and indicates that you don't understand what the BJCP does or how the guidelines are developed. The guidelines describe beers that have been or are actively being brewed by commercial and home brewers for a long enough time to have them stick. The contributors to the guidelines are not just Americans. Besides, to suggest that an American is unable to do sensory evaluation on a German or Belgian beer and describe it using commonly accepted adjectives is ignorant. These are beers that have been brewed consistently for hundreds of years. I know with confidence what a German Pilsner or Belgian Dark Strong is supposed to be like within a range of parameters.

 

[Bobby_M]

...

Do you know how your entry was stored for each competition? Are you certain that your bottling practice was consistent for each bottle? Are you sure some contaminant didnt make it into a bottle? Where were you beers placed in the flight?..

Excellent point. Competing is just as much as test of packaging skills as it is making the beer. If you want to understand this better, however you fill your competition bottles, fill an extra and put it someplace warm until the day the competition is being judged. Then put it in the fridge. Wait for your score sheets to come in and crack that bottle and pour it for yourself. If that beer is still in the keg, go ahead and pour one of those too. Are the beers different?

 

[Qhrumphf]

I think a competition based on personal taste would be the only fair competition there is, as everybody would know that it's based on personal bias/taste. Not like the bjcp events which claim to be not to be based on personal bias but as evidence shows, they are clearly far away from being non-biased.

I think you're making the perfect the enemy of the good with this approach. The BJCP approach does the best it can, within reason, to make fair, accurate, objective blind judging a reality. Styles are used as objective standards. And judges are ranked as to how fully and accurately they can evaluate a beer according to those standards. And then applying that to a myriad of competitions that are, for the most part, run however the comp wants to. That can't be done better short of doing it in a lab controlled double blind setting, which simply isn't practical for the average comp. Plus entry fees would go through the roof.

But saying "f*** it just do it hedonistically" isn't the answer either.

 

[ba-brewer]

Excellent point. Competing is just as much as test of packaging skills as it is making the beer. If you want to understand this better, however you fill your competition bottles, fill an extra and put it someplace warm until the day the competition is being judged. Then put it in the fridge. Wait for your score sheets to come in and crack that bottle and pour it for yourself. If that beer is still in the keg, go ahead and pour one of those too. Are the beers different?

I was under the impression that beer would be stored chilled and not at room temp.

Some of the drop off locations where I live have walk-in coolers and I try to use those instead of place where my beer might be sitting at room temp. They do say if they get too many they will take them all out, so I know or expect my beer to be at room temp for some amount of time.

I bottle and drop off my beers as close to the deadline as possible to minimize time in the bottle.

I have occasionally still had contest beers on tap to compare against the spare bottle, some beers do taste quite different.

 

[Broothru]

And the other 10% don't know how to add!

Or to paraphrase the Great Yogi, "90% is skill. The other half is Luck."

 

[Bobby_M]

I was under the impression that beer would be stored chilled and not at room temp.

Some of the drop off locations where I live have walk-in coolers and I try to use those instead of place where my beer might be sitting at room temp. They do say if they get too many they will take them all out, so I know or expect my beer to be at room temp for some amount of time.

I bottle and drop off my beers as close to the deadline as possible to minimize time in the bottle.

I have occasionally still had contest beers on tap to compare against the spare bottle, some beers do taste quite different.

That's the best of intentions usually. I use my shop as a dropoff location for three competitions and I do refrigerate but I can only vouch for the ones that stay here until competition day. I know comps sometimes store at room temp up until the judging day and then ice them down in coolers. I figure if you store that extra bottle in the worst possible conditions, you're at least aware of how bad it can be given poor handling.

 

[dmtaylor]

There's a national judge I know that said he can count the number of 40+ beers he's scored on on hand.

That's horrible. I know a world-class beer when I taste one. Anyone with that level of experience certainly should. This demonstrates that there are National judges out there who DON'T know a world-class beer when they taste one. That's just wrong. I believe you. That is perhaps the saddest thing of all. It's terrible.

 

[Miraculix]

This is ridiculous and indicates that you don't understand what the BJCP does or how the guidelines are developed. The guidelines describe beers that have been or are actively being brewed by commercial and home brewers for a long enough time to have them stick. The contributors to the guidelines are not just Americans. Besides, to suggest that an American is unable to do sensory evaluation on a German or Belgian beer and describe it using commonly accepted adjectives is ignorant. These are beers that have been brewed consistently for hundreds of years. I know with confidence what a German Pilsner or Belgian Dark Strong is supposed to be like within a range of parameters.

Well, I'm glad that you know, bjcp apparently does not

But let somebody more knowledgeable elaborate about, for example, their definitions of British beers.

 

[Bobby_M]

Well, I'm glad that you know, bjcp apparently does not

But let somebody more knowledgeable elaborate about, for example, their definitions of British beers.

Are you suggesting that the current definitions in the guidelines do not accurately describe the beer styles as listed?

 

[Miraculix]

Are you suggesting that the current definitions in the guidelines do not accurately describe the beer styles as listed?

Indeed I do. But I'm not going into details, sorry, no time for that. Northern brewer elaborated big time on these here in the forum, should be easy enough to find.

I read that, I read what mixed feedback people get for their beers... It's nothing real and nobody really cares about it except the participants who get scores to their liking and the guys who invested lots of time into it and now try to defend it for their own sake.

Sure, people learned something during the course and so on, but every time I read somewhere "but according to bjcp, this Amazonian beer from lampukistan should be....", I throw up a little, because who cares what a few guys think a beer should be like which originated tens of thousands kilometres away in a country they most likely never lived in or even visited.

 

[beersk]

It drives me crazy when I submit the same beer to two local competitions; each competition within 2 weeks of each other. And, in one competition my average score is 22 and comments say the beer is out of style. And in the other competition, I receive a score of 37 and get a red ribbon.

Those doing the judging all have BJCP so called certifications.

The same story repeats itself year-over-year for me; at least over the last 15 years.

Having a BJCP certification is sooooo meaningless.

I've been thinking and saying this for years. To me, it means nothing. Whenever someone says anything about a cicerone or sommolier or wanting to be one I immediately say to myself or maybe outloud, "Big deal" or "Why?" Such a freakin' pointless endeavor.

What makes me laugh the most are those pranks where people change the labels on cheap bottles of wine and give them to these so called "Sommoliers" and simply because of the label, they deem it a good wine. But as soon as they're told it wasn't what the bottle said it was, they get maaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaad. Well, it's like, serves you right dude for being such a freakin' snob.

This is why I don't do competitions.

 

[Qhrumphf]

Indeed I do. But I'm not going into details, sorry, no time for that. Northern brewer elaborated big time on these here in the forum, should be easy enough to find.

I read that, I read what mixed feedback people get for their beers... It's nothing real and nobody really cares about it except the participants who get scores to their liking and the guys who invested lots of time into it and now try to defend it for their own sake.

Sure, people learned something during the course and so on, but every time I read somewhere "but according to bjcp, this Amazonian beer from lampukistan should be....", I throw up a little, because who cares what a few guys think a beer should be like which originated tens of thousands kilometres away in a country they most likely never lived in or even visited.

Their guidelines for European styles across the board leave much to be desired, that's for sure. The 2015 guidelines are a massive improvement in this regard. But there are still some deep flaws.

But it's more than "a few guys" and many of the big heads in the BJCP do travel internationally. Regularly.

It is fair to say that BJCP guides for euro styles more closely approximate a description of an American attempt to recreate European styles as found in on shelves in America. Ie "here's this Strong Bitter imported from England, old and stale, but I like it so I'm gonna brew it this way", and as most American examples grow from this, and entered into comps as such, guidelines get written as such leaving the impression that's how the real thing is, fresh and at home.

 

[kevin58]

The BJCP is not the end-all-be-all and their style definitions are only meant as an attempt to make sure everyone who enters and judges competitions are on the same page. So you have wasted how much time, effort, postage and in the end, frustration for what? The answer is to ignore competitions and make the beer that makes you happy.

 

[Bobby_M]

I guess the biggest take away from this is that if BJCP competitions frustrate you and you think it's a scam, ignore them completely. No one forces anyone to compete. If you have honest criticisms about the way something is done and you think it can be done better, the only acceptable answer is to get involved and make the change. Volunteer YOUR time like every other BJCP member does. I want the judge quality and quantity in my local circle of competitions to increase and there is no way to complain that into reality. I have to hold study sessions and foster education.

 

[Horseflesh]

I am not a judge, but I took a BJCP class for fun. I opted not to take the test because I don’t think I’m good enough to pass, and if I did, I still don’t think I’d be a good judge. Judging is hard and I appreciate the efforts of those who do it. My club and local community is always desperate for judges.

I have never competed, and probably never will. I pretty much know what’s wrong with my beer and know that even as I slowly improve, it will never be world-class. If I want to measure myself against others, I have beer at a club meeting. That shows me I’m better than some, not as good as others. That’s OK, and it’s all the validation I need for now.

 

[jekeane]

That's horrible. I know a world-class beer when I taste one. Anyone with that level of experience certainly should. This demonstrates that there are National judges out there who DON'T know a world-class beer when they taste one. That's just wrong. I believe you. That is perhaps the saddest thing of all. It's terrible.

I would be interested in what your definition of world class is. 40 and above is a very good score it means that you are getting down to the finer details of style to make a perfect (world class) beer.

I have probably judged a thousand or so beers. I’ve given 1 50 ever to a beer that was truly world class it was an eisbock. I have given dozens of 40’s but the bulk of homebrew falls in the 30’s.

There is nothing wrong with most beers that score 30’s many are good and I would be happy to have another. 40’s are reserved for excellent beers that are commercial in quality and nail down large sections of the guidelines.

There aren’t many homebrews or commercial beers for that matter that are world class.

 

[Qhrumphf]

I've certainly judged my share of beers as well. I've never given a 50 in the real world while judging (and can think of only three beers I'd give it to at all), but I've given quite a few in the 40s (40-42 usually). I've only given 45+ twice in comps, once to a beer that went on to win BOS of a very large comp, and once to another at NHC finals that won a medal. Both were either 45 or 46 IIRC. I've done practice sheets of classic world class examples where I've gone up to 49, but that wasn't done blind so bias has to be acknowledged.

 

[Miraculix]

I guess the biggest take away from this is that if BJCP competitions frustrate you and you think it's a scam, ignore them completely. No one forces anyone to compete. If you have honest criticisms about the way something is done and you think it can be done better, the only acceptable answer is to get involved and make the change. Volunteer YOUR time like every other BJCP member does. I want the judge quality and quantity in my local circle of competitions to increase and there is no way to complain that into reality. I have to hold study sessions and foster education.

Personally, I don't mind if people have a competition for fun or whatever and that they make up their own rules for this. I mean, that's literally how every competition works, sports, cats, hot dog eating.

The only thing that bothers me, is that the bjcp rules or guidelines or however you call it, are often used as a set in stone thing if people want to recreate European beers.
They are treated like some kind of authority who can define European beers, which is just wrong and often even heavily incorrect.

Using it for their competition game thing, no problem. Treating them like a beer authority however is bad.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

page v of the BJCP 2015 guidelines.

"Using the Style Guidelines

"When we created previous versions of the style guidelines, we had no idea how prevalent and pervasive they would become. We believed we were creating a standardized set of style descriptions for use in homebrew competitions, but then found they were widely adopted worldwide to describe beer in general. Many countries with emerging craft beer markets were using them as handbooks for what to brew. Consumers and trade groups began using the styles to describe their products. And, unfortunately, many made astounding leaps of logic well beyond what was our original intent, and subsequently used the guidelines as a sort of universal Rosetta Stone for beer."

 

[dmtaylor]

I would be interested in what your definition of world class is. 40 and above is a very good score it means that you are getting down to the finer details of style to make a perfect (world class) beer.

I have probably judged a thousand or so beers. I’ve given 1 50 ever to a beer that was truly world class it was an eisbock. I have given dozens of 40’s but the bulk of homebrew falls in the 30’s.

There is nothing wrong with most beers that score 30’s many are good and I would be happy to have another. 40’s are reserved for excellent beers that are commercial in quality and nail down large sections of the guidelines.

There aren’t many homebrews or commercial beers for that matter that are world class.

Well this is easy.

There are two kinds of judges out there. The first type tries to find flaws in every beer even if there are none. The second type tastes the beer and judges accordingly and isn't afraid to score a 40+. I've judged about 15 competitions. In that time I have scored beers in the 40s about a dozen times. Twice I have scored beers at like 46 and 47. And yes each time I was within 5-7 points of the other judge.

There are outstanding beers out there. I'm not going to deny an outstanding beer or make up reasons why it needs to be improved if there is in fact nothing that needs to be improved.

 

[Miraculix]

page v of the BJCP 2015 guidelines.

"Using the Style Guidelines

"When we created previous versions of the style guidelines, we had no idea how prevalent and pervasive they would become. We believed we were creating a standardized set of style descriptions for use in homebrew competitions, but then found they were widely adopted worldwide to describe beer in general. Many countries with emerging craft beer markets were using them as handbooks for what to brew. Consumers and trade groups began using the styles to describe their products. And, unfortunately, many made astounding leaps of logic well beyond what was our original intent, and subsequently used the guidelines as a sort of universal Rosetta Stone for beer."

I'm glad to see that the bjcp itself shares my point of view.

 

[dmtaylor]

I'm glad to see that the bjcp itself shares my point of view.

If by "the bjcp itself" you mean "Gordon Strong"... well I'm not him and I don't know him so I don't know what he actually thinks in real life, but I tend to question the sincerity in the statements made above. They know what they're doing. A disclaimer doesn't change truth, whatever the truth might be.

 

[jekeane]

Well this is easy.

View attachment 668397

There are two kinds of judges out there. The first type tries to find flaws in every beer even if there are none. The second type tastes the beer and judges accordingly and isn't afraid to score a 40+. I've judged about 15 competitions. In that time I have scored beers in the 40s about a dozen times. Twice I have scored beers at like 46 and 47. And yes each time I was within 5-7 points of the other judge.

There are outstanding beers out there. I'm not going to deny an outstanding beer or make up reasons why it needs to be improved if there is in fact nothing that needs to be improved.

Im not trying to be snide or sarcastic here, Im just trying to understand your point of view. This reads to me like you are saying you are the right and better judge which is a very subjective statement. 5-7 points is a very large margin of difference 5 should be the max difference and 3 is generally the ideal I see followed.

Saison Dupont, Pilsner Urquell, Coors Original are "world class" beers in their respective styles. I rarely get those types of beer in a home brew or pro brewer competition for that matter. It seems to me you have a harder time just letting a beer be very good or excellent of which there are many.

Literally the whole point of competitions is to acknowledge success and look for flaws without fabricating either. You seem to feel that judges in general fabricate flaws, I might suggest you a fabricating success. There is room for subjectiveness but there are rules to be followed. Would be a competition without them.

Maybe people choice is the way to go for everything. Then we can drown in hazy boys and pastry beers! (ok that part was a little snide)

 

[dmtaylor]

Im not trying to be snide or sarcastic here, Im just trying to understand your point of view. This reads to me like you are saying you are the right and better judge which is a very subjective statement. 5-7 points is a very large margin of difference 5 should be the max difference and 3 is generally the ideal I see followed.

Saison Dupont, Pilsner Urquell, Coors Original are "world class" beers in their respective styles. I rarely get those types of beer in a home brew or pro brewer competition for that matter. It seems to me you have a harder time just letting a beer be very good or excellent of which there are many.

Literally the whole point of competitions is to acknowledge success and look for flaws without fabricating either. You seem to feel that judges in general fabricate flaws, I might suggest you a fabricating success. There is room for subjectiveness but there are rules to be followed. Would be a competition without them.

Maybe people choice is the way to go for everything. Then we can drown in hazy boys and pastry beers! (ok that part was a little snide)

If we're getting picky about the 5-7 thing, I'll confess I simply follow whatever range the head judge tells me to. If that's 3 points, fine. 5 points, fine. We can make it work. With a good judging partner (I always pray for that), I'm almost always within 3-5 points anyway and we don't even need to adjust our scores.

I'm not afraid to use the entire range from 13 or 17 or again whatever the head judge decides is minimum all the way up to apparently 47. I think I agree with you that most homebrews fall between roughly 27 to 37, vast majority.

Yes, I KNOW many judges seek flaws where there are none. I have no question of it. That's my biggest beef. And as many others have already mentioned, probably all judges, ourselves included, do insert some level of subjectivity as well which accounts for more variability. I hate to say it is wrong to do so, but on some level it is and some it isn't. This is a real struggle for the judge who's so sure of himself/herself that he/she knows better than what the guidelines spell out for them. Some judges don't even look at the guidelines. Personally I write down what *I* taste first, THEN I review the guidelines for anything that I got wrong or missed. I think that's a good way to go about it, never got any flack for it anyway besides maybe that it takes a longer time to do the job right and comps are usually cracking the whip at us.

I don't know where we're going with all this except that I would like to indicate that there are facets of all our stories that are right, and when mosaicked all together should form a picture of what the BJCP should look like in an ideal universe. Except that we don't live in an ideal universe. We live in the real one. At least, as far as I know.