That German Lager taste

[Bassman2003]

Great. Thanks for clarifying as I must not have read your post correctly. From my opinion, I would say you only need to add the Brewtan B in the boil and move the two additions in to the mash for more protection up front when temperatures and activity are higher.

 

[FswBG]

Great video @Bassman2003 Thank you for sharing!

This only applies to cold side oxidation. Oxygen impacts on the hot side have occurred before yeast pitch (O2 has already reacted with malt compounds). Solid processes on the cold side limit the downward slide.

Great conversation/comments! I would just caution with using absolutes like 'only'. While I agree that post fermentation oxidation has the highest impact on staling, I would posit that pre-oxidized malt flavour does contribute to the overall degradation of flavor over time. To what degree is subjective. I am able to perceive the heightened fresh grain flavor and sweetness that's imparted by adopting the LODO process lasting longer in my kegs than HIDO lagers, however everyone's palate is different.

It's possibly splitting hairs and everyone can draw their own conclusions. I would just say (to all who are unsure/curious) in the spirit of hombrewing experimentation, why not try it once following bassman's/LODO process and see if you notice a difference.

 

[cmac62]

Great. Thanks for clarifying as I must not have read your post correctly. From my opinion, I would say you only need to add the Brewtan B in the boil and move the two additions in to the mash for more protection up front when temperatures and activity are higher.

That would make it a little easier. One addition of BTB and one addition of AA and Kmeta. Thanks

 

[cmac62]

Does anyone know if BTB and tanic acid are the same thing. When I looked up gallotannin, there were some sciency sites then sites selling tanic acid. It seemed a lot cheaper that BTB and was wondering if it would do the same thing. That or wine tannin, I have some of this stuff also for my meads. Thanks

 

[Gnomebrewer]

According to Wyeast information BTB is 100% tannic acid.

 

[SaltNeck]

Hello all,

I know this is an older thread but I wanted to share a video a just made regarding process comparisons over 4 batches of the same beer. I try to show things in my videos that are often only heard about or mentioned in forums etc... Hopefully it can be of benefit to some in their quest for the "It Factor".

Warning: the content involved does contain scenes and graphic representations of low oxygen practices!

A well-done video. LODO methods are definitely worth employing and experimenting with.

Is the color of the hot break directly proportional or even related to the DO in a system? It may be part of it, but filtering and grain handling methods combined with good malt are what really contribute to bright white hot break. On the first batch the wort was slowly drained through the mash filter bed and through the bag and through the Anvil false bottom.

I've gotten bright white hot breaks from cooler batch sparging and also from BIAB. Both of which were most likely the result of gentle handling of the grain bed and the bag, a 200 micron bag and slow draining all combined with properties of the malt.

 

[SaltNeck]

Does anyone know if BTB and tanic acid are the same thing. When I looked up gallotannin, there were some sciency sites then sites selling tanic acid. It seemed a lot cheaper that BTB and was wondering if it would do the same thing. That or wine tannin, I have some of this stuff also for my meads. Thanks

Yes, you can buy food grade gallotannins or tannic acid from a number of sources. The difference is you don't know the origin of the BTB tannic acids (i.e. did they come from chestnuts or some other nut or bark) and does that origin make a difference in the reactions in the mash and the boil. I'm not sure that it matters but it is something that Wyeast has probably? researched and therefore they either resell or make theirs from what they believe to be the best source.

Tannic Acid Suppliers USA (americanchemicalsuppliers.com)

What you don't want to do is buy/purchase or consume lab grade tannic acid or anything used for dyes or tanning leathers or wood stains, etc...

 

[Bassman2003]

A well-done video. LODO methods are definitely worth employing and experimenting with.

Is the color of the hot break directly proportional or even related to the DO in a system? It may be part of it, but filtering and grain handling methods combined with good malt are what really contribute to bright white hot break. On the first batch the wort was slowly drained through the mash filter bed and through the bag and through the Anvil false bottom.

I've gotten bright white hot breaks from cooler batch sparging and also from BIAB. Both of which were most likely the result of gentle handling of the grain bed and the bag, a 200 micron bag and slow draining all combined with properties of the malt.

Thanks. The problem with doing these experiments is that they breed other experiments! For the 4th round I went back and fourth between doing a HIDO batch with the lauter or doing what I did which was a full LODO batch with BIAB. Shelfishly, I know I would be brewing LODO, so I opted for the latter looking for shorter brew days... But, I wonder the same thing about the lauter. Although when I brewed HIDO, I mainly had lauter based systems with clear wort (not as clear as I get now) and always remember the hot break being not white with the crust. So it is worth checking out. I might revisit some day but not with the same malt. I used Great Western 2-row because it was 99 cents /lb but I am not crazy out it.

My assertion is that the low oxygen amount makes the foam white and the lauter removed the crust. This was the outcome from batch #3 & #4.

 

[SaltNeck]

Thanks. The problem with doing these experiments is that they breed other experiments! For the 4th round I went back and fourth between doing a HIDO batch with the lauter or doing what I did which was a full LODO batch with BIAB. Shelfishly, I know I would be brewing LODO, so I opted for the latter looking for shorter brew days... But, I wonder the same thing about the lauter. Although when I brewed HIDO, I mainly had lauter based systems with clear wort (not as clear as I get now) and always remember the hot break being not white with the crust. So it is worth checking out. I might revisit some day but not with the same malt. I used Great Western 2-row because it was 99 cents /lb but I am not crazy out it.

My assertion is that the low oxygen amount makes the foam white and the lauter removed the crust. This was the outcome from batch #3 & #4.

Using a different malt would certainly be one variable to consider.

Boil foam is mainly proteins coagulating from the action of the boil releasing the oxygen in the wort. A good lauter would certainly hold back a lot of proteins in the mash tun leaving only smaller particulates as nucleation sites thus lightening the color of the foam. Having a low oxygen wort should then reduce the amount of foam by definition, not necessarily make it lighter in color.

The problem with all of this comes when white foam with no crust is seen during the boil on batch sparge systems or BIAB systems where performing an undisturbed grain bed lauter is problematic. There must be other factors in play. Certain malts, mash pH's, and processes may produce little or no teig.

Narziss and/or Kunze may discuss this, unfortunately I don't have access to their texts or The Modern Brewery forum.

 

[monkeymath]

I never knew the colour, texture or amount of foam was a relevant observable. Seems now like everything is taking it for granted that a brown cap of foam was a telltale sign of a wort of low quality.
Is that generally agreed upon?
(I'm not dismissing it in any way, just genuinely asking if that's a thing.)

A good lauter would certainly hold back a lot of proteins in the mash tun leaving only smaller particulates as nucleation sites thus lightening the color of the foam.

Aren't the proteins pretty much dissolved in the wort prior to the boil? How could the grainbed or mash filter filter hold them back?

 

[SaltNeck]

I never knew the colour, texture or amount of foam was a relevant observable.

It is a general indicator of lauter quality - indicating how many solids, (proteins, teig, etc...) were transfered to the boil and how much dissolved gas is in the wort.

Seems now like everything is taking it for granted that a brown cap of foam was a telltale sign of a wort of low quality. Is that generally agreed upon? (I'm not dismissing it in any way, just genuinely asking if that's a thing.)

The amount of solids (proteins, teig, etc...) left in the mash tun generally correlates to less solids, proteins, fatty acids and other staling compounds in the boil. So, yes, in that regard it is an indicator of wort quality.

Aren't the proteins pretty much dissolved in the wort prior to the boil? How could the grainbed or mash filter filter hold them back?

There is a certain amount of smaller particulate matter dissolved in the wort. The larger particles and the grayish teig substances are certainly filtered by the grain bed. An undisturbed, underletted grain bed is a very effective filter and will hold back most unwanted substances.

The action of the boil will still coagulate what's been dissolved in the wort but you won't have the larger brownish grey particles.

 

[SaltNeck]

It would be an interesting exercise to understand the difference between the YOS method and the boiling method of deoxygentation and how they relate to the amount or type of foam in the boil.

Does the CO2 released into the mash water by the YOS method produce more foam at boil than a mash water which has been boiled and is devoid of gas?

Which method enables the most coagulation during boil?

Is there a difference in the amount and type of foam produced by each method?

 

[Bassman2003]

Thanks for the discussion and this is what I hope the videos bring about - More questions. If you would like to compare YOS vs pre-boil then batch #3 vs batch #4 is a fairly close comparison with only the dough in method differing. They look pretty close from a foam perspective with #4 having a bit more crust. I might have gone a little quicker raising the bag out on #4. I do not remember the amount of foam or time being that different. Nothing like the HIDO batch where the foam stayed around much longer.

I am glad SaltNeck is bring this up because in the end, there are few indicators of weather or not you have retained malt flavor compounds or destroyed them. As you can see in the video, the color was closer then I expected, so that is not the most obvious indicator. Taste is another but that can be subjective. The other measurements we take like pH & gravity have nothing to show about flavor. This is what makes low oxygen brewing so difficult to discuss - it is a measure of flavor.

 

[SaltNeck]

Thanks for the discussion and this is what I hope the videos bring about - More questions. If you would like to compare YOS vs pre-boil then batch #3 vs batch #4 is a fairly close comparison with only the dough in method differing. They look pretty close from a foam perspective with #4 having a bit more crust. I might have gone a little quicker raising the bag out on #4. I do not remember the amount of foam or time being that different. Nothing like the HIDO batch where the foam stayed around much longer.

I am glad SaltNeck is bring this up because in the end, there are few indicators of weather or not you have retained malt flavor compounds or destroyed them. As you can see in the video, the color was closer then I expected, so that is not the most obvious indicator. Taste is another but that can be subjective. The other measurements we take like pH & gravity have nothing to show about flavor. This is what makes low oxygen brewing so difficult to discuss - it is a measure of flavor.

I feel that instead of visual observations one would need actual measurements of things like pH, dissolved gas volumes, wort makeup, malt quality, etc... in order to objectively measure the cause and effects of the foam. Meh, I'm not *that* into the LODO stuff but it would certainly be interesting.

 

[Bassman2003]

We are homebrewers, not professionals, so even if we did measure all of that stuff, the chances of repeating the exact parameters on the next batch are low. To bring this back to the original thread topic, I would say an easy gauge for getting that German lager taste (pinnacle flavor imho) is striving for pure white hot break that dissipates rather quickly. At least it is very easy to track. Getting there is more difficult but has been outlined.

 

[Beer666]

Hello all,

I know this is an older thread but I wanted to share a video a just made regarding process comparisons over 4 batches of the same beer. I try to show things in my videos that are often only heard about or mentioned in forums etc... Hopefully it can be of benefit to some in their quest for the "It Factor".

Warning: the content involved does contain scenes and graphic representations of low oxygen practices!

Funny enough i watched your video last week as i am already subbed. Fascinating stuff. Cheers.

 

[Pablo 54]

Using yeast to deoxygenate and adding sulfites is easier than capping and underletting! You may have to be a bit careful with sulfites if you don't have a good way to oxygenate your wort at pitching time, but deoxygenating the water with yeast is IMO the easiest part (and the first LODO technique I adopted).

Edit: video

Good points. I'm brewing on Monday and I'm going to do the yeast process. I'm using a pilsner grain bill but Kolsch yeast so there will be nothing to hide behind.

 

[Spivey24]

LODO aside, I wouldn’t recommend following the earlier advice in this thread, because I did and I really can’t stop drinking this last batch, it’s so good! It’s been a while since I have been in Germany, but it’s what I remember about it being so good. A certain freshness, a nice malt flavor without being overly malty, very drinkable. If I did LODO, I would probably be drinking this for breakfast too, so not necessary for me.

Some key take-aways:
-Used Wyerman floor malted malt which I think made a huge difference.
-Did a multi step mash for a highly fermentable wort.
-Kept the ph low in the mash and added more lactic acid in the fermenter.
-Use restraint with the hops. Just some low alpha German hops at 60 or 45 and maybe a flameout addition.
-60 minute boil.
-Used White Labs southern German yeast and plenty of it.
-Lots of finings. Whirlfloc in the boil, ClarityFerm in the ferment, and gelatin before kegging.
-Ferment started at 47 and let rise to 50 where it stayed for 10 days. Let it rise to 53 for 3 days then down to 35.
-Get it off primary before 3 weeks. I did a split batch and the one I left in primary for 5 weeks was not as good as the one in for 18 days.
-It actually didn’t take more than 3 weeks of lagering once transferred to the kegs. It didn’t improve after that. Before that there was a slight sulpher, but the beer cleared quickly.
-Closed transfer to purged keg.

I am an IPA guy usually, and I can’t get enough of this stuff.

 

[csantoni]

Used Wyerman floor malted malt which I think made a huge difference.
-Did a multi step mash for a highly fermentable wort.
-Kept the ph low in the mash and added more lactic acid in the fermenter.
-Use restraint with the hops. Just some low alpha German hops at 60 or 45 and maybe a flameout addition.
...

I've been wanting to put a bit of a capstone on this thread, since I'm the OP.

After making a few more batches I determined that while LODO practices are probably good, and I do following many of them on the cold side, the "German Lager Taste" I was looking for is all about the malt.

I made a Helles about 7 weeks ago and while it could certainly use more lagering time it's amazing right now and the best beer I've ever made. I used Weyerman Pilsner & Munich II and 34/70 dry yeast. The specific flavor I taste in those German imports is a grain flavor that really shines through in this beer. I did a similar process to @Spivey24, with some differences, but the first three of his points are spot on. I also did a single decoction which I think brings out a more pronounced grain flavor in my beers so I use it in styles where I want that to be highlighted.

So, while LODO, yeast selection, process, and age all likely contribute, the flavor that I was talking about at the beginning of the thread was definitely the malt.

 

[passedpawn]

I've been wanting to put a bit of a capstone on this thread, since I'm the OP.

After making a few more batches I determined that while LODO practices are probably good, and I do following many of them on the cold side, the "German Lager Taste" I was looking for is all about the malt.

I made a Helles about 7 weeks ago and while it could certainly use more lagering time it's amazing right now and the best beer I've ever made. I used Weyerman Pilsner & Munich II and 34/70 dry yeast. The specific flavor I taste in those German imports is a grain flavor that really shines through in this beer. I did a similar process to @Spivey24, with some differences, but the first three of his points are spot on. I also did a single decoction which I think brings out a more pronounced grain flavor in my beers so I use it in styles where I want that to be highlighted.

So, while LODO, yeast selection, process, and age all likely contribute, the flavor that I was talking about at the beginning of the thread was definitely the malt.

Have you looked at their Barke malts? See this: Weyermann Barke Pilsner - I made FIRE!

 

[csantoni]

Have you looked at their Barke malts? See this: Weyermann Barke Pilsner - I made FIRE!

Heard of them but haven't tried them yet. I've made a few tweaks to my process with some new equipment so I'm going to use some tried & true recipes to dial it in for the next few batches.

 

[Sammy86]

the flavor that I was talking about at the beginning of the thread was definitely the malt.

So what you're saying is, I was right? Can i get that in writing to show the Mrs.?

 

[Bassman2003]

Glad you found a happy place.

 

[monkeymath]

So what you're saying is, I was right? Can i get that in writing to show the Mrs.?

Dear Mrs Sammy,

I hope this finds you well. I am writing to you on behalf of the international homebrewing community. We all depend on the insight provided by the man that you are so lucky to have by your side.
So while at times it may _seem_ as if he was merely wasting time on the internet, getting into pointless arguments with strangers, mostly overweight middle-aged men with a considerable drinking problem, he is in fact one of the most prolific members of a distinguished community of experts, many of which look up to him.
I am telling you this to further your understanding of his pivotal position. He should be freed from most, if not all, chores of the household, so he can dedicate his energy to his true calling: educating the public.
You should be proud to have scored such a fine specimen of a man.

Sincerely yours,
Some dude on the internet

 

[Craiginthecorn]

Decoction, Decoction,Decoction!

So, let me be sure I understand your point -- a triple decoction?

 

[Jayjay1976]

So, let me be sure I understand your point -- a triple decoction?

Actually the correct abbreviation is melanoidin malt...

 

[hottpeper13]

Not necessarily a triple decoction, but a single one at mashout doesn't do anymore then a step mash or using melanoiden malt as far as flavor gose. I was emulating realtors maxim,location ,location,location. I strike at 104* for 20 min then add boiling liquor to get to 143* and a 1.5 :1 ratio. Using a large strainer i pull most of the grain out and heat to 160* rest 20 min then bring to boil(less then 10 min) boil for 20 min add back to get 158-160 rest 10 min ,pull and bring to boil for 30 min. It's pretty much "stick a fork ion me I'm done" at this point so a third only happens on my Czeck Pils with a brewing buddy, using under modified floor malt.
One more thing, if it didn't matter for flavor the new breweries in Germany wouldn't be centered around decoction.

 

[Broothru]

Dear Mrs Sammy,

I hope this finds you well. I am writing to you on behalf of the international homebrewing community. We all depend on the insight provided by the man that you are so lucky to have by your side.
So while at times it may _seem_ as if he was merely wasting time on the internet, getting into pointless arguments with strangers, mostly overweight middle-aged men with a considerable drinking problem, he is in fact one of the most prolific members of a distinguished community of experts, many of which look up to him.
I am telling you this to further your understanding of his pivotal position. He should be freed from most, if not all, chores of the household, so he can dedicate his energy to his true calling: educating the public.
You should be proud to have scored such a fine specimen of a man.

Sincerely yours,
Some dude on the internet

OK, I want YOU in my corner when I hafta' go toe to toe with SWMBO'd over my next necessary (she says, "capricious") piece of brew gear. Might be getting a PM from me soon since the Visa bill will be coming any day now. I can foresee the need for expert (not to mention, "loquacious") backup in litigating my defense.

 

[BeerAndTele]

Actually the correct abbreviation is melanoidin malt...

Just curious: for those of you that use melanoidin malt in lieu of decoction, what sort of percentage of your grain bill does the melanoidin represent?

 

[Miraculix]

Just curious: for those of you that use melanoidin malt in lieu of decoction, what sort of percentage of your grain bill does the melanoidin represent?

I think it was 5%, last time I used it.