That German Lager taste

[duncan.brown]

Agree we don't want a LoDO hijacked thread, but I think this 'side track' is right in line with the purpose of the O.P.'s original question

Yes, definitely a lot of useful information here! I think by declining to engage with negativity and the vast majority responding in a good faith manner, we have officially won the internet. And remember, it's an ATTRYTPOOBTHACS thread!

 

[Miraculix]

Excellent discussion and insights. Agree we don't want a LoDO hijacked thread, but I think this 'side track' is right in line with the purpose of the O.P.'s original question.

This is basically the perfect example of a lodo hijack


Except we all started to behave a bit better, which is nice.

 

[Bad Bubba]

I was wondering if anyone was using a Krausening method to carbonate your beer. I am curious because I have a friend and fellow home brewer Who focuses on German style beers. He is very process oriented trying to emulate the old style German brewing practices (to the point he conditions his beer in an underground cellar). His beers are outstanding. Krausening is how he carbonates most of his German style beers. I just wanted to get the thoughts of those on this thread about this technique -have not seen it mentioned yet.

 

[hottpeper13]

As a home brewer ,having High K fermentating beer to add to a keg is a logistical nitemare. To remain in the Germans good graces I sometimes(holiday beers of 10+%) will pull 2 qts of wort after flameout in a canning jar and keep it in the fridge until packaging. As long as you know the gravity of the wort and the volume of beer there's a formula to figure the amount of wort to get the carbonation you want.

 

[Bad Bubba]

I have done Krausening a couple of times on steam beer. I set aside the required amount of wort (1-1.5 quarts for a 5 gallon batch) and also some of my yeast starter. I freeze the wort and refrigerate the yeast. After fermentation of the main batch, I thaw the reserved wort and allow both it and yeast to warm to room temp pitch the yeast into the wort basically making a starter with the wort. Then add the fermenting starter to the main batch. I use a unitank and a spundling valve to control temp and fermentation. It is a little more complicated it not bad.

 

[couchsending]

I was brewing a lot of beer there for a while and would krausen all sorts of beers from IPAs to Stouts and lagers. I never used saved wort for fear of oxidation.

It doesn’t need to be the exact same beer. I’ve krausened IPA with Pale ale or even another IPA with complete different hops. I’ve krausened stout with Dark Mild, Pils with Helles, Porter with dark lager, etc. You’re usually adding such a small amount of wort it won’t really have that big of an impact on the primary fermented beer.

You don’t need to krausen right after the beer is done fermenting. Plenty of lager brewers will krausen after the beer has been lagered for an extended period of time.

There’s a krausening calculator on Brewers Friend. Works like a champ.

 

[monkeymath]

I've tried Aufkräusen once with a Helles. Froze some wort on brewday then made a starter with it a day or two before bottling. I used it to carbonate half the batch, the rest received table sugar. Tasting them next to each other and focusing really hard, I kinda-sorta felt that the kräusened beer was ever so slightly smoother, but honestly I could not tell them apart.

It might work better with a better process - if you brew more frequently, you can use a bit of each batch to kräusen the last - but if you're not truly committing to it then I don't fathom it's worth the effort. This is only my personal opinion, though, formed by a single attempt with a Helles that turned out rather mediocre.

 

[Bad Bubba]

I was brewing a lot of beer there for a while and would krausen all sorts of beers from IPAs to Stouts and lagers. I never used saved wort for fear of oxidation.

It doesn’t need to be the exact same beer. I’ve krausened IPA with Pale ale or even another IPA with complete different hops. I’ve krausened stout with Dark Mild, Pils with Helles, Porter with dark lager, etc. You’re usually adding such a small amount of wort it won’t really have that big of an impact on the primary fermented beer.

You don’t need to krausen right after the beer is done fermenting. Plenty of lager brewers will krausen after the beer has been lagered for an extended period of time.

There’s a krausening calculator on Brewers Friend. Works like a champ.

I am trying to understand how saved wort would cause any more oxidation than any other wort. You should pitch it when it is fermenting which should consume any oxygen.

 

[Bassman2003]

Hello all,

I know this is an older thread but I wanted to share a video a just made regarding process comparisons over 4 batches of the same beer. I try to show things in my videos that are often only heard about or mentioned in forums etc... Hopefully it can be of benefit to some in their quest for the "It Factor".

Warning: the content involved does contain scenes and graphic representations of low oxygen practices!

 

[bwible]

Hello all,

I know this is an older thread but I wanted to share a video a just made regarding process comparisons over 4 batches of the same beer. I try to show things in my videos that are often only heard about or mentioned in forums etc... Hopefully it can be of benefit to some in their quest for the "It Factor".

Warning: the content involved does contain scenes and graphic representations of low oxygen practices!

Very well produced video, looks like you spent some time on that. Thanks for your efforts and thanks for sharing!

 

[monkeymath]

Hello all,

I know this is an older thread but I wanted to share a video a just made regarding process comparisons over 4 batches of the same beer. I try to show things in my videos that are often only heard about or mentioned in forums etc... Hopefully it can be of benefit to some in their quest for the "It Factor".

Warning: the content involved does contain scenes and graphic representations of low oxygen practices!

I really really enjoyed that video! It's well-produced, but not over-produced, there's no irrelevant yada-yada. I watched it from beginning to end without feeling a need to skip ahead at any point, which is rare for a homebrew video, and even more so considering it's half an hour long!
And thanks for the trigger-warning upfront

Your setup looks great, makes it all seem rather effortless. I'm not giving up my Grainfather any time soon, but the bits of grain in my boiling wort have been a concern of mine for a while now. My wort is always murky.

 

[bwible]

I really really enjoyed that video! It's well-produced, but not over-produced, there's no irrelevant yada-yada. I watched it from beginning to end without feeling a need to skip ahead at any point, which is rare for a homebrew video, and even more so considering it's half an hour long!
And thanks for the trigger-warning upfront

Your setup looks great, makes it all seem rather effortless. I'm not giving up my Grainfather any time soon, but the bits of grain in my boiling wort have been a concern of mine for a while now. My wort is always murky.

I have an Anvil Foundry and the same thing happens whenever I lift/pull the basket. It’s the design of the all in ones. When you lift the basket you disturb everything and re-distribute all the junk you just spent an hour recirculating to get rid of.

These days I do not lift/pull the basket. I just use the Foundry as a mash tun. After the mash is finished, I drain into my brew kettle and boil instead of boiling in the Foundry. The wort is much clearer.

 

[Bassman2003]

I really really enjoyed that video! It's well-produced, but not over-produced, there's no irrelevant yada-yada. I watched it from beginning to end without feeling a need to skip ahead at any point, which is rare for a homebrew video, and even more so considering it's half an hour long!
And thanks for the trigger-warning upfront

Your setup looks great, makes it all seem rather effortless. I'm not giving up my Grainfather any time soon, but the bits of grain in my boiling wort have been a concern of mine for a while now. My wort is always murky.

Thanks a lot. I am very happy to hear you watched it all the way through. I try to not gloss over anything but am always aware of the viewer's time constraints. I have worked on my setup quite a bit and it was purposefully put together with LODO in mind. I used some parts from a previous setup and the Foundry was a new addition. As was reinforced in the video, clear wort all the way through the process is very important. This is a weakness of AIO's imho.

 

[monkeymath]

These days I do not lift/pull the basket. I just use the Foundry as a mash tun. After the mash is finished, I drain into my brew kettle and boil instead of boiling in the Foundry. The wort is much clearer.

That's an interesting idea. I can't really get a full boil on my stovetop - and I don't want to give up on the GF's integrated chiller -, but I could of course drain off to a different vessel, clean out my Grainfather, then pump everything back. Not entirely sure how well that would work, though, draining the grain basket without letting the pump run dry.

@Bassman2003 appears to use a similar approach. It surprised me a bit, given the extended exposure to oxygen.

As was reinforced in the video, clear wort all the way through the process is very important.

Yeah, I noticed that you pay a lot of attention to the clarity of the wort and the colour of the hotbreak etc and also highlight these attributes in your comparison of the processes. Wanna do a fifth iteration with HIDO and the extra vessel for the post-mash wort (as in #1)?

 

[bwible]

That's an interesting idea. I can't really get a full boil on my stovetop - and I don't want to give up on the GF's integrated chiller -, but I could of course drain off to a different vessel, clean out my Grainfather, then pump everything back. Not entirely sure how well that would work, though, draining the grain basket without letting the pump run dry.

I disconnect the pump after the mash is complete and just drain it by gravity.

 

[Bassman2003]

Yeah, I noticed that you pay a lot of attention to the clarity of the wort and the colour of the hotbreak etc and also highlight these attributes in your comparison of the processes. Wanna do a fifth iteration with HIDO and the extra vessel for the post-mash wort (as in #1)?

I struggled with that decision for the 4th batch. I would like to see the outcome of making the clear wort with HIDO but want to get back to brewing other beers for a while. Maybe I will do a follow up batch in the future, but the comparison will be lost.

But I will say, after brewing LODO for two years, I know the wort will still not taste as good. HIDO wort taste flat and sugary compared to LODO wort which is brighter, lighter and more flavorful. I say this because the main difference between the two styles is getting the O2 out of your strike water and throwing in some sulfites. Not too difficult for much better flavor.

 

[Pablo 54]

This was excellent. To be honest, when people starting talking LODO my eyes glaze over. I understand the idea behind it but I've never watched anyone do a steady and concise demonstration. I can't do 100% of everything you demonstrated but I can do the underletting and capping.
Thank you for sharing your work.

 

[tizoc]

This was excellent. To be honest, when people starting talking LODO my eyes glaze over. I understand the idea behind it but I've never watched anyone do a steady and concise demonstration. I can't do 100% of everything you demonstrated but I can do the underletting and capping.
Thank you for sharing your work.

Using yeast to deoxygenate and adding sulfites is easier than capping and underletting! You may have to be a bit careful with sulfites if you don't have a good way to oxygenate your wort at pitching time, but deoxygenating the water with yeast is IMO the easiest part (and the first LODO technique I adopted).

Edit: video

 

[Bassman2003]

This was excellent. To be honest, when people starting talking LODO my eyes glaze over. I understand the idea behind it but I've never watched anyone do a steady and concise demonstration. I can't do 100% of everything you demonstrated but I can do the underletting and capping.
Thank you for sharing your work.

Thanks Pablo. That is the exact reason why I started my channel, to create visual examples of techniques that are often only read or talked about. Once you see it being done, it is much more approachable imho. Yes, the most important parts of limiting O2 are cold side practice (spunding & liquid keg purging), deoxigenating your strike water and using some sulfites in your strike water. Everything else is fine tuning. Beer #3 & #4 turned out pretty nice (much better than the HIDO beer imho).

 

[jnecessary]

Thanks, @Bassman2003 for the video. I'm fermenting my 5th solo batch currently and I use BIAB in a kettle over propane. I was already considering a Foundry next spring if/when a bonus comes around. That said, I just appreciate the way this information was presented and it seems like some minimal effort to improve the quality and shelf-life of the beer I'm making. Kudos for sharing!

 

[monkeymath]

Thanks Pablo. That is the exact reason why I started my channel, to create visual examples of techniques that are often only read or talked about. Once you see it being done, it is much more approachable imho. Yes, the most important parts of limiting O2 are cold side practice (spunding & liquid keg purging), deoxigenating your strike water and using some sulfites in your strike water. Everything else is fine tuning. Beer #3 & #4 turned out pretty nice (much better than the HIDO beer imho).

I feel like this approach of "start with a couple of basic steps which are easy to integrate" is in conflict to some presentations of LODO I have seen here and elsewhere. It is often posited that there was some threshold of DO that you may not exceed, and that you don't get much (any?) benefit if you're just brewing "low-ish oxygen".

I feel like this sort of "hard LODO" position is partly responsible for some of the negative reactions to LODO. Of course, that doesn't affect the truth value of said position.

 

[Bassman2003]

I would agree to some extent. This is all a large learning curve, so less was known in the early stages other than the method was producing great tasting homebrew and an effort was made to get the word out. There are some things that kind of all or nothing like cold side practices but depending on how picky the brewer is, hot side practice does have some varying levels. The first step is just knowing/trusting/believing that there is a better flavor when executing the methods.

I am really happy the hot break visuals were so obviously different in my 4 batch video. Not everybody might care to push their homebrewing or go after ultimate flavor but I think most everybody would choose pure white hot break over the dirty crusty hot break as being "better".

 

[Gnomebrewer]

Thanks for sharing your video @Bassman2003, It was well made and I enjoyed watching it. Although it supports to some extent my own experiences in LoB (there is a noticeable difference), I don't agree with your assertion that Oxidation is a flavour that must be avoided. With pale lagers, there was a clear difference and I did slightly prefer the low Oxygen version, but mates that I drink with were roughly evenly split (maybe it's because our taste buds are used to crappy Australian lagers). Even now I mostly ferment in kegs and spund most batches, but some of my mates prefer batches fermented in plastic and transferred into a non-purged keg (which taste lightly oxidised to me). The point is, I think of Oxygen control as tool to get the flavours I want, not necessarily an evil. It's certainly not the difference between god's nectar and some swill that should be dumped, as implied by some early LO Brewers. I wonder if you served two of your beers to a blind panel, how many would choose one over the other as a preference?

Also, I'd like to suggest that comments like this

Not everybody might care to push their homebrewing or go after ultimate flavor

don't help the LoB cause. What you call 'ultimate flavor' is different to what I call 'ultimate flavour'. Two of my favourite beer styles are Flanders red ales and Barrel aged stouts. Both very much at odds with LoB. I love the complexity and depth of flavour that can only come from just the right amount of Oxygen. So to me, pushing my brewing to go after ultimate flavour will be getting in to barrel aging. Do you barrel age beers? I could say that anyone not barrel aging doesn't want to go after ultimate flavour. But of course not everyone wants to chase barrel aged flavour, and even fewer are interested in mixed ferments with Brettanomyces!

 

[cmac62]

Bassman great video. I have a foundry and started using the BTB, Ascorbic Acid and Kmeta blend in the sparge and end of boil, and the YOS, but haven't figured how to do the underletting or mash cap yet. I believe it has improved the flavor stability into the keg. I also do a regular transfer into the keg with a little AA to deal with what O2 does get in during the transfer. Again thanks for the video, I'll definitely check out your channel.

 

[Bassman2003]

@Gnomebrewer Thanks for your comments. It is tough to tailor everything to be open and inclusive when the subject matter is so complex and targeted. I am not trying to be a LODO representative, I am trying to share my experiences. I have no intention of telling people how to brew but rather show them how I am learning to do it. I did not mean the comment about ultimate flavor in the way you took it, but I find around this topic people get defensive for some reason... What I was trying to say is that many people just want to make some good homebrew, not go for the ultimate. It is a hobby and deep dives might not interest them.

I do stand by whatever I say about oxidation as it goes beyond just a little off flavor. LODO beers tend to stay fresh in the keg a lot longer than HIDO beers as they have way less oxidation. All beers go on the downward slide, but the less O2 you have the flatter your slope will be. So in my mind, all oxidation is a negative. The flavor I pick up in the HIDO beer is not something I think I would want to find in any beer regardless of style. Remember, any commercial beer brewed in a larger system will be inherently way lower on the oxidation scale than homebrew. This is due to the surface area of larger systems.

Also, most LODO followers focus on brewing lagers where the oxidation really stands out. So there comments are often mainly about lager brewing. I will agree that micro oxidation can be enjoyable and a tool to use. But the whole area around oxidation is what I hope to get people thinking about. Many in the homebrew world hear oxidation and think of cardboard which is almost at the end of the spectrum. What the LODO crowd focuses on is the very beginning stages of oxidation which truly only is noticeable with very well attenuated beers. Its when the attenuation gets down to 1.008 and below that these flavors stop being covered up and show to be an off flavor. It is a complex topic which has a lot of angles for sure.

 

[Bassman2003]

Thanks @cmac62 Glad you liked it. You should try that blend in the mash as that is where it is needed most to save the malt compounds before they go away. Just remember to oxygenate well before pitching whenever you use sulfites.

 

[Gnomebrewer]

LODO beers tend to stay fresh in the keg a lot longer than HIDO beers as they have way less oxidation. All beers go on the downward slide, but the less O2 you have the flatter your slope will be.

This only applies to cold side oxidation. Oxygen impacts on the hot side have occurred before yeast pitch (O2 has already reacted with malt compounds). Solid processes on the cold side limit the downward slide.

So in my mind, all oxidation is a negative. The flavor I pick up in the HIDO beer is not something I think I would want to find in any beer regardless of style.

I'm assuming you don't like barrel aged stouts, Flanders red/brown ales or Lambics? Oxygen impact is important in all of these styles and they aren't the same without it.

Remember, any commercial beer brewed in a larger system will be inherently way lower on the oxidation scale than homebrew. This is due to the surface area of larger systems.

That's only part of the story. Any larger system that doesn't use deaerated water is immediately oxidising the mash. I'm not sure what the go is in other areas, but around here I've brewed with three local micros and none of them use deaerated water. They all make great (award winning) beer.

Also, most LODO followers focus on brewing lagers where the oxidation really stands out.

Definitely. This is an important note, and one that's missing from a lot of LoB discussions. Any brewer who predominantly brews lagers should give it a go.

Many in the homebrew world hear oxidation and think of cardboard which is almost at the end of the spectrum.

Absolutely! It comes up often in NEIPA threads. But NEIPA brewers will get what they're after by focussing on cold side processes (for the hop freshness).

 

[Bassman2003]

Your are correct and glad to see your knowledge about brewing practices. I will be monitoring these four beers as they age to see if there are any differences. I do not brew barrel ages stouts or Lambics and am not that familiar with Flanders reds. That has nothing to say about what you or others like to brew or drink. What any one person says is their opinion (outside of brewing facts). So brew on regardless of what I or others say although an open mind to try new things is always a plus imho.

 

[hottpeper13]

I brew barrel aged and lambics( 25 gal solara) and count on the MICRO oxygenation for flavor. sometimes the compounds being oxidized are unfavorable and split into flavorful molecules. That being said I do practice care on the hot side by excluding O2 by not splashing wort and doing transfers from under,be it mash tun or boil kettle. These beers are intended to age and should not go into the barrel with sloppy brewing procedures.
I don't practice strict LODO just use a little brew tanB in the mash and care when transferring as my beers seldom last more then 6 months.

 

[cmac62]

Thanks @cmac62 Glad you liked it. You should try that blend in the mash as that is where it is needed most to save the malt compounds before they go away. Just remember to oxygenate well before pitching whenever you use sulfites.

Thanks Bassman, I do use it in both the mash, not the sparge, and near the end of the boil.

Edit: I have been using these amounts from @Brooothru

0.50 grams NaMeta, 0.50 grams ascorbic acid, 0.80 grams BrewTanB (total 1.8 grams Trifecta) for ~6.5 gal/24.6L batch volume in the mash. That results in approximately 18ppm ascorbic acid, 18ppm NaMeta, 30ppm BTB.

I also dose with 1.4 grams Trifecta about :10 minutes before end of boil. The lesser amount accounts for boil-off but results in the same ppm ratios in the post boil wort. This second dosing replenishes the original dosing of mash Trifecta which was exhausted during the mash, lauter and boil, to mitigate oxygen pick-up during chill, whirlpool and transfer into the fermenter.

 

[Bassman2003]

Great. Thanks for clarifying as I must not have read your post correctly. From my opinion, I would say you only need to add the Brewtan B in the boil and move the two additions in to the mash for more protection up front when temperatures and activity are higher.

 

[FswBG]

Great video @Bassman2003 Thank you for sharing!

This only applies to cold side oxidation. Oxygen impacts on the hot side have occurred before yeast pitch (O2 has already reacted with malt compounds). Solid processes on the cold side limit the downward slide.

Great conversation/comments! I would just caution with using absolutes like 'only'. While I agree that post fermentation oxidation has the highest impact on staling, I would posit that pre-oxidized malt flavour does contribute to the overall degradation of flavor over time. To what degree is subjective. I am able to perceive the heightened fresh grain flavor and sweetness that's imparted by adopting the LODO process lasting longer in my kegs than HIDO lagers, however everyone's palate is different.

It's possibly splitting hairs and everyone can draw their own conclusions. I would just say (to all who are unsure/curious) in the spirit of hombrewing experimentation, why not try it once following bassman's/LODO process and see if you notice a difference.

 

[cmac62]

Great. Thanks for clarifying as I must not have read your post correctly. From my opinion, I would say you only need to add the Brewtan B in the boil and move the two additions in to the mash for more protection up front when temperatures and activity are higher.

That would make it a little easier. One addition of BTB and one addition of AA and Kmeta. Thanks

 

[cmac62]

Does anyone know if BTB and tanic acid are the same thing. When I looked up gallotannin, there were some sciency sites then sites selling tanic acid. It seemed a lot cheaper that BTB and was wondering if it would do the same thing. That or wine tannin, I have some of this stuff also for my meads. Thanks

 

[Gnomebrewer]

According to Wyeast information BTB is 100% tannic acid.

 

[SaltNeck]

Hello all,

I know this is an older thread but I wanted to share a video a just made regarding process comparisons over 4 batches of the same beer. I try to show things in my videos that are often only heard about or mentioned in forums etc... Hopefully it can be of benefit to some in their quest for the "It Factor".

Warning: the content involved does contain scenes and graphic representations of low oxygen practices!

A well-done video. LODO methods are definitely worth employing and experimenting with.

Is the color of the hot break directly proportional or even related to the DO in a system? It may be part of it, but filtering and grain handling methods combined with good malt are what really contribute to bright white hot break. On the first batch the wort was slowly drained through the mash filter bed and through the bag and through the Anvil false bottom.

I've gotten bright white hot breaks from cooler batch sparging and also from BIAB. Both of which were most likely the result of gentle handling of the grain bed and the bag, a 200 micron bag and slow draining all combined with properties of the malt.

 

[SaltNeck]

Does anyone know if BTB and tanic acid are the same thing. When I looked up gallotannin, there were some sciency sites then sites selling tanic acid. It seemed a lot cheaper that BTB and was wondering if it would do the same thing. That or wine tannin, I have some of this stuff also for my meads. Thanks

Yes, you can buy food grade gallotannins or tannic acid from a number of sources. The difference is you don't know the origin of the BTB tannic acids (i.e. did they come from chestnuts or some other nut or bark) and does that origin make a difference in the reactions in the mash and the boil. I'm not sure that it matters but it is something that Wyeast has probably? researched and therefore they either resell or make theirs from what they believe to be the best source.

Tannic Acid Suppliers USA (americanchemicalsuppliers.com)

What you don't want to do is buy/purchase or consume lab grade tannic acid or anything used for dyes or tanning leathers or wood stains, etc...

 

[Bassman2003]

A well-done video. LODO methods are definitely worth employing and experimenting with.

Is the color of the hot break directly proportional or even related to the DO in a system? It may be part of it, but filtering and grain handling methods combined with good malt are what really contribute to bright white hot break. On the first batch the wort was slowly drained through the mash filter bed and through the bag and through the Anvil false bottom.

I've gotten bright white hot breaks from cooler batch sparging and also from BIAB. Both of which were most likely the result of gentle handling of the grain bed and the bag, a 200 micron bag and slow draining all combined with properties of the malt.

Thanks. The problem with doing these experiments is that they breed other experiments! For the 4th round I went back and fourth between doing a HIDO batch with the lauter or doing what I did which was a full LODO batch with BIAB. Shelfishly, I know I would be brewing LODO, so I opted for the latter looking for shorter brew days... But, I wonder the same thing about the lauter. Although when I brewed HIDO, I mainly had lauter based systems with clear wort (not as clear as I get now) and always remember the hot break being not white with the crust. So it is worth checking out. I might revisit some day but not with the same malt. I used Great Western 2-row because it was 99 cents /lb but I am not crazy out it.

My assertion is that the low oxygen amount makes the foam white and the lauter removed the crust. This was the outcome from batch #3 & #4.

 

[SaltNeck]

Thanks. The problem with doing these experiments is that they breed other experiments! For the 4th round I went back and fourth between doing a HIDO batch with the lauter or doing what I did which was a full LODO batch with BIAB. Shelfishly, I know I would be brewing LODO, so I opted for the latter looking for shorter brew days... But, I wonder the same thing about the lauter. Although when I brewed HIDO, I mainly had lauter based systems with clear wort (not as clear as I get now) and always remember the hot break being not white with the crust. So it is worth checking out. I might revisit some day but not with the same malt. I used Great Western 2-row because it was 99 cents /lb but I am not crazy out it.

My assertion is that the low oxygen amount makes the foam white and the lauter removed the crust. This was the outcome from batch #3 & #4.

Using a different malt would certainly be one variable to consider.

Boil foam is mainly proteins coagulating from the action of the boil releasing the oxygen in the wort. A good lauter would certainly hold back a lot of proteins in the mash tun leaving only smaller particulates as nucleation sites thus lightening the color of the foam. Having a low oxygen wort should then reduce the amount of foam by definition, not necessarily make it lighter in color.

The problem with all of this comes when white foam with no crust is seen during the boil on batch sparge systems or BIAB systems where performing an undisturbed grain bed lauter is problematic. There must be other factors in play. Certain malts, mash pH's, and processes may produce little or no teig.

Narziss and/or Kunze may discuss this, unfortunately I don't have access to their texts or The Modern Brewery forum.

 

[monkeymath]

I never knew the colour, texture or amount of foam was a relevant observable. Seems now like everything is taking it for granted that a brown cap of foam was a telltale sign of a wort of low quality.
Is that generally agreed upon?
(I'm not dismissing it in any way, just genuinely asking if that's a thing.)

A good lauter would certainly hold back a lot of proteins in the mash tun leaving only smaller particulates as nucleation sites thus lightening the color of the foam.

Aren't the proteins pretty much dissolved in the wort prior to the boil? How could the grainbed or mash filter filter hold them back?