Temp controller just for temp monitoring

[Komodo]

Hello,
I'm trying to do basic temp monitoring with one probe, and have a high and low alarm for a few degrees outside of a mash temp. I was looking at all the thermometers on Amazon and they all seem to be meat/bbq, and come with proprietary probes. I'm thinking about using a simple PID with K type thermocouple, but my head is spinning from looking at the user manuals and how to set up a basic high low alarm. It's also not clear if you need to supply some form of alarm or do they incorporate a buzzer of some kind? Any help in pointing to an appropriate one or setting one up is appreciated. I've got a little power supply that would serve up 12v or 5v, and intend to make a little panel with a switch to turn a Topsflo pump on/off and could use that to hold and power a PID. Here are a couple I narrowed down to. It's also unclear on whether these come with hardware to mount to a panel?

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B005NGL4KG/ref=ox_sc_act_title_2?smid=A1BREQ8I6OHSBG&psc=1
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07WTWDD9T/ref=ox_sc_act_title_3?smid=A2K5DI8VX12AN1&psc=1

 

[doug293cz]

Hello,
I'm trying to do basic temp monitoring with one probe, and have a high and low alarm for a few degrees outside of a mash temp. I was looking at all the thermometers on Amazon and they all seem to be meat/bbq, and come with proprietary probes. I'm thinking about using a simple PID with K type thermocouple, but my head is spinning from looking at the user manuals and how to set up a basic high low alarm. It's also not clear if you need to supply some form of alarm or do they incorporate a buzzer of some kind? Any help in pointing to an appropriate one or setting one up is appreciated. I've got a little power supply that would serve up 12v or 5v, and intend to make a little panel with a switch to turn a Topsflo pump on/off and could use that to hold and power a PID. Here are a couple I narrowed down to. It's also unclear on whether these come with hardware to mount to a panel?

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B005NGL4KG/ref=ox_sc_act_title_2?smid=A1BREQ8I6OHSBG&psc=1
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07WTWDD9T/ref=ox_sc_act_title_3?smid=A2K5DI8VX12AN1&psc=1

Most hobbyist level PIDs have alarm outputs that are nothing but simple relay contacts (that either open or close when the alarm condition is met, depending on the specific PID, and alarm output.) This means you have to provide power to one side of the relay contact and connect the other side to an external alarm annunciator.

Your first link is to a MYPIN TA4-SSR, and this has only 1 alarm relay. You would really want a TA4-SRR, which has two alarm relays. Although you might be able to drive a 12V annunciator from the secondary SSR output (12V DC output), but I am not sure.

Your second link is to a PID that does have two alarm relays, so might be a better choice, but I am totally unfamiliar with that particular device.

An alternative is to use an Auber DSPR120 which has built in alarms, but this device is only able to use PT100 RTD type temperature probes.

Brew on

 

[Komodo]

An alternative is to use an Auber DSPR120 which has built in alarms, but this device is only able to use PT100 RTD type temperature probes

Yeah, this is the conclusion I came to this morning. I realized I was trying to build a weak little control for temp monitoring and pump switch . . .so . . . I'm just going to bite the bullet and get a full controller, not sure whether I'll build or buy and I'll use either the Brewcommander or the Auber 120. First I need to rewire my circuit as it's currently (ha) a 20 AMP GFCI using L6-20. I have a 30 amp GFCI breaker on hand, but will need to open the drywall in my shop to wire for 10/3. Not sure how much I could save building myself, the kits from Auber aren't that much less.

 

[Wagon_6]

Are you already brewing with electric or upgrading? If you’re a little bit handy, build a panel yourself. You can plan all the features you like. I stumbled into having a second temp sensor and it’s it great to have.

The Auber 320 is amazing and has built in timer/alarm notifications. You can also add a louder alarm if you need a bigger reminder.

 

[Komodo]

Switching from propane to electric. Am handy, I've done quite a bit of electronics but I have to have a recipe to follow (red wire connects, here and here), I am not a schematic reader. I'd build the panel, but don't have a sense of how much less you could build it for rather than buying outright. All I want is a basic eBIAB panel with one pump, lighted switch for pump on/off, light for element on, Auber 120 and main power. I'll be supplying 30 amp GFCI with 10/3 once I rewire my circuit. I've got one 4500watt element.

 

[doug293cz]

Switching from propane to electric. Am handy, I've done quite a bit of electronics but I have to have a recipe to follow (red wire connects, here and here), I am not a schematic reader. I'd build the panel, but don't have a sense of how much less you could build it for rather than buying outright. All I want is a basic eBIAB panel with one pump, lighted switch for pump on/off, light for element on, Auber 120 and main power. I'll be supplying 30 amp GFCI with 10/3 once I rewire my circuit. I've got one 4500watt element.

You can use a DSPR120 in this circuit, and the terminals are all in the same locations. Hopefully, this schematic is not too difficult to decipher.

Brew on

 

[Komodo]

Thanks @doug293cz
I’ll put all this stuff in a cart and see where it lands. Do you have any sense if sourcing it all from Auber would be much less than their kit? Or alternate sources that make it more economical?

 

[doug293cz]

Thanks @doug293cz
I’ll put all this stuff in a cart and see where it lands. Do you have any sense if sourcing it all from Auber would be much less than their kit? Or alternate sources that make it more economical?

I haven't done a comparison on this design vs. one of Auber's offerings. However, I don't know of any suppliers, other than The Electric Brewery, that offer a safe start interlock (system won't power up if either the pump switch or element switch is on.) It is possible to buy most of the components, other than the DSPR, from other suppliers (ebay, alibaba, etc.) at lower prices, but you need to know that you are getting quality components if you use alternate suppliers. If you are only building one, it might be worth the peace of mind to buy from a well known supplier.

Brew on

 

[Komodo]

You can use a DSPR120 in this circuit, and the terminals are all in the same locations. Hopefully, this schematic is not too difficult to decipher.

View attachment 825038

Brew on

@doug293cz I've got this all in a cart, and I've just got a few questions:

-Main power switch: I've grabbed an illuminated SW16. The way this is designed, will that work? My guess is it would illuminate when the switch is turned, but what I don't know is will the element just have power or will it be firing? In the upper right you have element firing lamp. I'm not sure how these interplay.

-Should all three fuses be fuse blocks?
-Should the contactors be mounted on DIN rail or can they be be mounted without?
-I'm ignorant as to why the contactors are 120v vs 240v.
-The wiring kits Auber has are 10 and 22AWG, and also offer 6 and 14AWG wire. It looks like great wire, but it's also $$. I've got 8, 12, 14, 18 on hand that probably isn't the same quality but is probably fine. Can I sub out any of those for larger gauges? Do all of the wires need specific connectors or are there bare wire terminals?

Thanks for your help.

 

[doug293cz]

@doug293cz I've got this all in a cart, and I've just got a few questions:

-Main power switch: I've grabbed an illuminated SW16. The was this is designed, will that work? My guess is it would illuminate when the switch is turned, but what I don't know is will the element just have power or will it be firing? In the upper right you have element firing lamp. I'm not sure how these interplay.

I'm a little confused about what you are asking here. You can use an illuminated switch for the main power switch (in the upper left) but here a lighted switch is redundant as the front of the DSPR will light up when system power is turned on. The element enable switch and contactor are used since SSRs do not eliminate voltage from the element, but rather only severely limit current to the point of ~0 power output. Also, the most common failure mode of SSRs is to get stuck on, and the element enable switch allows cutting voltage and power from the element if the SSR fails, without having to shut off all power to the panel. The lighted switch allows you to see at a glance if the power to the element is enabled, but not if the element is actually receiving power. The element firing light tells you if the element is actually getting power, and it will help you discover if your SSR has latched in the "ON" state (by not turning off when you think the DSPR should be modulating power to the element.) The "Output LED" on the DSPR tells you what the DSPR is doing, not what the SSR is actually doing. There is one quirk associated with the element firing lamp - if you test the panel with the element disconnected, the element firing lamp will be on whenever the element enable switch is on. This is due to the way SSRs work, and is expected behavior.

-Should all three fuses be fuse blocks? I would use blocks, but it is not required.
-Should the contactors be mounted on DIN rail or can they be be mounted without? Your choice whether you buy DIN rail mounting or back plane mounting contactors.
-I'm ignorant as to why the contactors are 120v vs 240v. It's the coils that are 120V. The power contacts are rated for more than 240V. You could use 240V coil contactors, but that changes the wiring, and the voltage of the LED in the lighted switch.
-The wiring kits Auber has are 10 and 22AWG, and also offer 6 and 14AWG wire. It looks like great wire, but it's also $$. I've got 8, 12, 14, 18 on hand that probably isn't the same quality but is probably fine. Can I sub out any of those for larger gauges? Do all of the wires need specific connectors or are there bare wire terminals?

You can use heavier wire (smaller AWG#) than specified nearly anywhere, but you cannot use lighter (larger AWG#) where heavier wire is specified. Larger wire is generally more difficult to work with, and may be too big to fit on some of the device terminals. The high current paths require 10AWG wire, but you could use 8AWG if you wanted. You can use 14AWG or 18AWG for the pump wiring (where 16AWG is specified.) The low current wiring (for the DSPR power, SSR control wires, contactor coil wiring, LED wires) can use anything between 22AWG and 16AWG, but I recommend the finer wires. All wire used should be stranded, not solid core. Best practice is to use crimped terminals on all wire ends, as they are more reliable than stranded wires in screw terminals. You should buy or borrow a "ratcheting crimper" rather than the cheap plier type crimper to insure good, reliable crimps.

Thanks for your help.

Answers in BLUE above. I also recommend you read the first few posts in this thread.

Brew on

 

[Komodo]

Thanks again @doug293cz, your help is really invaluable. I’ve reviewed the link you sent, and your schematic. I’ve got a couple followup questions.

-I’ve seen varying recommendations for fuse values for these locations. I’m going to stick with what you have, but what about fast or slo blow? Also, an Auber schematic showed an inline fuse on the red leg between the contactor and SSR. Is this redundant?

-The contractors are listed as 120v coils. Is this because each leg is 120v? I ask because Auber lists a 120v contactor (CN-PBC302-120V) and a 240v contactor (CN-PBC302-240V).

-Lastly, I’m trying to figure out some of the physical connections. For example, on the 1A fuse between the main power switch and contactor, could I put the terminated ends together in the same contactor or switch lug? Or should I get a small terminal strip? Would there ever be a time when you would put two wires in one terminal?

Thanks again.

 

[doug293cz]

Thanks again @doug293cz, your help is really invaluable. I’ve reviewed the link you sent, and your schematic. I’ve got a couple followup questions.

-I’ve seen varying recommendations for fuse values for these locations. I’m going to stick with what you have, but what about fast or slo blow? Also, an Auber schematic showed an inline fuse on the red leg between the contactor and SSR. Is this redundant?

You only need fuses where the wire size reduces. If you are feeding from a 30A circuit, you don't need to add any 30A fuses in your panel since the feed would be 10AWG, and the element wiring would also be 10AWG. However, if you were feeding from a 50A circuit (6AWG), and split it into two 30A branches (10AWG) for two different elements, then you would need to add 30A fuses/breakers where the wire dropped from 6AWG to 10AWG. I would start with fast blow. If the 10A fuse has nuisance blows when the pump starts up, then switch that to a slo-blow fuse (the pump should take less than 2A when running, but there is a bit of a current surge at start up, and this is what the slo-blow would work around.)

-The contractors are listed as 120v coils. Is this because each leg is 120v? I ask because Auber lists a 120v contactor (CN-PBC302-120V) and a 240v contactor (CN-PBC302-240V).

The voltage rating (120V or 240V) is for the magnetic coils, not the power contacts. A 120V coil gets connected to one of the 120V hot legs, and neutral. A 240V coil gets connected to both 120V hot legs (which are 180° out of phase with each other, so when both are used they provide 240V to the load.) The design I posted is meant to use 120V contactor coils.

-Lastly, I’m trying to figure out some of the physical connections. For example, on the 1A fuse between the main power switch and contactor, could I put the terminated ends together in the same contactor or switch lug? Or should I get a small terminal strip? Would there ever be a time when you would put two wires in one terminal?

You can either use terminal strips or connect up to two wires to a device terminal, if the wire ends have spade or eyelet terminals on them. If you don't use crimp wire terminations, then I would use terminal strips rather than multiple wires on a device terminal. As I said previously, I recommend using crimped wire terminations.

Thanks again.

Brew on

 

[Komodo]

You can use a DSPR120 in this circuit, and the terminals are all in the same locations. Hopefully, this schematic is not too difficult to decipher.

View attachment 825038

Brew on

@doug293cz I'm deep into the build, have all the parts and am currently drilling and cutting the enclosure. One thing I'm wondering about is case grounding. Should I do a star ground right where the ground wire comes into the enclosure, where the pump outlet ground connects? Also, if this is the case (no pun intended) any reason I couldn't use one of the mounting bolts for a contactor or 220 outlets as a ground lug?

Also, Should the short leg of the fuse blocks be the larger wire size? ex. 10g going into the 10A fuse and 16g going out?
Similar question with element firing lamp - Connect the 20g wire on the same L1 and L2 terminal of the 220 outlet? Or use some kind of wire nut or Wago there?

I appreciate your invaluable help.

 

[doug293cz]

@doug293cz I'm deep into the build, have all the parts and am currently drilling and cutting the enclosure. One thing I'm wondering about is case grounding. Should I do a star ground right where the ground wire comes into the enclosure, where the pump outlet ground connects? Also, if this is the case (no pun intended) any reason I couldn't use one of the mounting bolts for a contactor or 220 outlets as a ground lug?

Also, Should the short leg of the fuse blocks be the larger wire size? ex. 10g going into the 10A fuse and 16g going out?
Similar question with element firing lamp - Connect the 20g wire on the same L1 and L2 terminal of the 220 outlet? Or use some kind of wire nut or Wago there?

I appreciate your invaluable help.

You can attach the ground wire(s) to the enclosure anywhere you have access to bare metal. Scrape off paint if need be. Using lock washers on the ground connection is a good idea to minimize the chance of the connections loosening. It's best if you have ground wires for both the main enclosure body and the door, so that you are not depending on the hinges to provide a low resistance connection between the body and door. Ground wires should ideally have crimped on ring terminals, so that they cannot pull free from the connection screw/bolt.

Yes, it's best practice to have the "fat" wire be the shorter connection to the fuse block, although this is a pretty minor point, since what you are protecting with the fuse is the skinny wire.

Route the element firing lamp wires whichever way works out to be the most convenient. I don't usually fuse those (although you can if you want to) as the wires should self fuse in the case of a short, with little chance of damage to other components in the enclosure. These wires should be routed and secured so there is no chance of them rubbing on anything. If the wires have crimped on terminals, they can share a device terminal with a larger wire.

Brew on

 

[Komodo]

Thanks again @doug293cz for your design and help! I ran a 30A gfci 10/3 circuit, and built the controller with no issue. It fired right up and works splendidly. The only hitch was I added one of those small round ammeters, and had it upside down. My wife and I spent a couple minutes trying to decipher the odd “codes” it was giving us until we realized it was upside down.

 

[Komodo]

@doug293cz
One last question: The little ammeter reads 23A, where my clamp meter reads 19.5A which sounds closer to what a 4500watt element would do. I got the ammeter at Auber and didn’t expect a lot from it, but wonder if it could be tweaked to be closer? Do you think a resistor in series with one of the inductor wires would do it? If so, any idea how to get a rough value?

 

[doug293cz]

@doug293cz
One last question: The little ammeter reads 23A, where my clamp meter reads 19.5A which sounds closer to what a 4500watt element would do. I got the ammeter at Auber and didn’t expect a lot from it, but wonder if it could be tweaked to be closer? Do you think a resistor in series with one of the inductor wires would do it? If so, any idea how to get a rough value?

Sorry, but I do not know enough about the physics behind the current sensing coil to know how to adjust its sensitivity.

Some questions:

1. Where is the coil placed in your control panel (exactly which wire goes thru the coil?)
2. Did you apply the clamp on meter in the same location?
3. Were there other loads drawing current that might affect the measurement?

Brew on

 

[Komodo]

1. Here.
2. yes
3. Just the Topsflo, which draws 1.2A

 

[doug293cz]

Ok, that placement will measure only the current thru the element (and the element firing light, which should only be a few mA.) The Topsflow won't affect the reading.

You could try measuring with The DSPR in "Boil" mode @ 100% output (make sure you have the element covered with water), in which case there will be no modulation of the current thru the element. If the results are the same, then it's possible that the power modulation affects the panel meter differently than the clamp on. If the results are still different, then at least one of the current meters is not accurate.

You might want to contact the supplier of the panel meter.

Brew on