New to electric brewing, need help with control panel(s)

[doug293cz]

Gotcha, no worries, I did see his videos and I was interested in his wiring video only to see that he got the control panel kit from The Electric Brewery haha.

Well, The Electric Brewery did sponsor that set of videos... I suspect Brian may have gotten the kit for free, or at a steep discount.

I will say that my design, is more "elegant" than TEB's w.r.t. the safe start interlock. TEB adds an additional relay to the design in order to implement the safe start. I figured out a way to do it without the extra relay by making the main power contactor (relay) self latching. I haven't looked at the TEB design in detail, but I suspect they may have other components that are not really necessary, that add cost to the system.

However, if you want something more like a Heathkit, with detailed step by step instructions, they are a better place to start than one of my schematic only designs. It all depends on the builder's desires, skills, comfort level, and budget.

Brew on

 

[javajoe1981]

I'm sure you are right about the reduced cost of that build for him, I like your schematic though as it does seem quite simple compared to a lot of other builds that I have seen.

 

[doug293cz]

I'm sure you are right about the reduced cost of that build for him, I like your schematic though as it does seem quite simple compared to a lot of other builds that I have seen.

I have a minimalist design philosophy. If I can't explain why something should be in the design, then it shouldn't be there. I can explain why every component is in my designs, and why it is wired in the design the way it is. But, I won't leave out things others leave out if I think it compromises safety, or failure tolerance.

For example, most designs put the element power control contactors downstream of the SSRs. I put them upstream of the SSRs since their purpose is to be able to shut off element power in the case of a stuck (ON) SSR. Putting them upstream removes power from more of the circuitry, including the SSRs, when they are off.

Another example, the TEB panel in the videos contains 2X 30A (32A?) circuit breakers, which are superfluous, since the panel is designed to be plugged into a circuit protected by a 30A circuit breaker. The situation is different for a panel designed to be fed by a 50A circuit, in which case the extra circuit breakers are needed so that most of the power wiring can be done with 10AWG wire, rather than 6AWG wire.

Brew on

 

[javajoe1981]

I have a minimalist design philosophy. If I can't explain why something should be in the design, then it shouldn't be there. I can explain why every component is in my designs, and why it is wired in the design the way it is. But, I won't leave out things others leave out if I think it compromises safety, or failure tolerance.

For example, most designs put the element power control contactors downstream of the SSRs. I put them upstream of the SSRs since their purpose is to be able to shut off element power in the case of a stuck (ON) SSR. Putting them upstream removes power from more of the circuitry, including the SSRs, when they are off.

Another example, the TEB panel in the videos contains 2X 30A (32A?) circuit breakers, which are superfluous, since the panel is designed to be plugged into a circuit protected by a 30A circuit breaker. The situation is different for a panel designed to be fed by a 50A circuit, in which case the extra circuit breakers are needed so that most of the power wiring can be done with 10AWG wire, rather than 6AWG wire.

Brew on

I like the minimalist approach... I actually noticed the location difference of the contactors vs SSR's and was curious, glad you touched on that! I also considered a breaker in the panel, mainly because I thought it might be easier than having to go to my main breakers if something got tripped. I guess I could've done the spa sub-panel too, but I didn't... maybe that will be a future update if I do run into any problems but let's hope it all goes according to plan.

 

[javajoe1981]

Day 1 in the books, feel like I made some really good progress today, even after running into a few hiccups. Waiting on a couple receptacles for the pumps, other than that, I just need to mount the internal components and start wiring it up!

 

[javajoe1981]

@doug293cz Probably a stupid question, but are there any components that should have dedicated runs for wiring, off of the busses vs. daisy chaining? Hot vs. Neutral?

 

[doug293cz]

@doug293cz Probably a stupid question, but are there any components that should have dedicated runs for wiring, off of the busses vs. daisy chaining? Hot vs. Neutral?

Anything in the 30A panel design can be daisy chained, or use separate runs to buses, whichever is more convenient. In very complex designs, not using a lot of daisy chaining can make trouble shooting easier, since you don't have to trace wires as much, but I think this design is simple enough that all bus routing wouldn't be that big of an advantage.

Brew on

 

[javajoe1981]

I got everything wired up last night/early this morning, had to stay up late to finish haha. Freaked out when it wouldn't turn on, but realized the breaker was off, oops... Got it to fire up and things appeared to be working, but have two problems:
1. The keyed switch doesn't turn the panel off when switched back to "off"
2. I believe the Boil contactor is buzzing when selected, this was tested without anything plugged in, not sure if that matters, both firings and enabled indicators do light up. The HLT does not make a sound but both lights illuminate as well.

I know it may be hard to follow the wiring, I promise it will look better once fully functional and I can tighten up some cable ties lol

@doug293cz thoughts?

 

[doug293cz]

I got everything wired up last night/early this morning, had to stay up late to finish haha. Freaked out when it wouldn't turn on, but realized the breaker was off, oops... Got it to fire up and things appeared to be working, but have two problems:
1. The keyed switch doesn't turn the panel off when switched back to "off"
2. I believe the Boil contactor is buzzing when selected, this was tested without anything plugged in, not sure if that matters, both firings and enabled indicators do light up. The HLT does not make a sound but both lights illuminate as well.

View attachment 816286

I know it may be hard to follow the wiring, I promise it will look better once fully functional and I can tighten up some cable ties lol

@doug293cz thoughts?

1. Double check the wiring of the key switch. If the wiring is OK, then disconnect the switch wiring and test the contact action on the switch. With the switch in the OFF position, use an ohmmeter to measure between terminals 3 & 4 on each switch block. Both should be open. With the switch in the ON position, both switch blocks should measure 0 between 3 & 4. If you get something different, then the switch is not operating as expected. If the switch is wired correctly, and operating properly, there is no way for the main power contactor coil to be energized if the switch is off.

It could also be the contactor malfunctioning, if it does not open the power contacts when voltage is removed from the coil. You could test the voltage on the contactor coil after you try to turn off main power. The voltage across the coil should be 0 with the key switch OFF. Might be good to do this before you unwire the key switch as described above.

2. The contactors shouldn't care if a load is connected or not as far as the contacts opening and closing based on coil energized or not. I would double check the voltage rating of the coil on the buzzing contactor. It should be a 120V coil. The contactors should only click when opening/closing, but they should not buzz.

The element firing lamps will light if the control switch for the enable contactor is ON, AND the is no element connected to the SSR. This is a quirk of how SSRs work. They leak a little current when off, and without a low resistance load on the SSR to shunt that current away from the lamp, that leakage current is enough to turn on the lamp.

Good luck, and keep us updated.

Brew on

 

[javajoe1981]

1. Double check the wiring of the key switch. If the wiring is OK, then disconnect the switch wiring and test the contact action on the switch. With the switch in the OFF position, use an ohmmeter to measure between terminals 3 & 4 on each switch block. Both should be open. With the switch in the ON position, both switch blocks should measure 0 between 3 & 4. If you get something different, then the switch is not operating as expected. If the switch is wired correctly, and operating properly, there is no way for the main power contactor coil to be energized if the switch is off.

It could also be the contactor malfunctioning, if it does not open the power contacts when voltage is removed from the coil. You could test the voltage on the contactor coil after you try to turn off main power. The voltage across the coil should be 0 with the key switch OFF. Might be good to do this before you unwire the key switch as described above.

2. The contactors shouldn't care if a load is connected or not as far as the contacts opening and closing based on coil energized or not. I would double check the voltage rating of the coil on the buzzing contactor. It should be a 120V coil. The contactors should only click when opening/closing, but they should not buzz.

The element firing lamps will light if the control switch for the enable contactor is ON, AND the is no element connected to the SSR. This is a quirk of how SSRs work. They leak a little current when off, and without a low resistance load on the SSR to shunt that current away from the lamp, that leakage current is enough to turn on the lamp.

Good luck, and keep us updated.

Brew on

I figured I messed something up on the switch, I had daisy chained off the switch to the multimeter, but was on the wrong side of the switch, swapped it to the other side and it switched as designed, so #1 figured out... regarding the firing lamps, I need to run the lamp wiring off a different connection point. Still need to troubleshoot to figure out what's up with the contactor buzzing though.

thanks for all the help!!! So close!!!

 

[javajoe1981]

Everything appears to be working as designed/intended, even the boil side appears to be working although the contactor is still buzzing, it is rated for 120v and I tested the coil as well and it was showing 120v

 

[passedpawn]

Looking good. I sure wish I had noticed this thread earlier. I'm getting ready to sell mine cheap, I could have saved you a lot of effort and $.

 

[doug293cz]

Looking good. I sure wish I had noticed this thread earlier. I'm getting ready to sell mine cheap, I could have saved you a lot of effort and $.

But does it have all the nifty features that I put in my designs?

Brew on

 

[passedpawn]

But does it have all the nifty features that I put in my designs?

Brew on

More!

[edit] pre-sales advert, sorry all

 

[doug293cz]

More!

A Leviton 3032 switch perhaps?

Brew on

 

[passedpawn]

A Leviton 3032 switch perhaps?

Brew on

haha, there is minimal. I've been there.

 

[doug293cz]

haha, there is minimal. I've been there.

I seem to recall that we have discussed that before...

Brew on

 

[passedpawn]

I seem to recall that we have discussed that before...

Brew on

yessir. Nothing wrong with light switches if they are properly rated.

 

[doug293cz]

yessir. Nothing wrong with light switches if they are properly rated.

Not elegant, but they work. The 3032 is one of the few in the form factor rated for 30A (for those wondering what the hell we're talking about.)

Brew on

 

[passedpawn]

And, unlike most components needed for a 30A 240V system, they are sold at Home Depot.

 

[passedpawn]

I sincerely apologize for the off-topic intrusion. Doug made me do it.

 

[doug293cz]

I sincerely apologize for the off-topic intrusion. Doug made me do it.

Guilty.

Brew on

 

[javajoe1981]

Haha, no worries!!

@passedpawn did you source everything yourself or buy the kit? Definitely looks like the Electric Brewery panel

 

[passedpawn]

It's the Electric Brewery panel, I think. Some other dude bought the kit from them, couldn't finish it, and sold it to me. I got it working, put in the Auber EZ boil, and brewed with it for the last X years. I meant to put a Passedpawn Brewing logo in the middle, but...life. I made a LOT of good beer with this sucker.

[edit] here it is, churning away a couple of months ago.

 

[Daniel_Colaco]

It's the Electric Brewery panel, I think. Some other dude bought the kit from them, couldn't finish it, and sold it to me. I got it working, put in the Auber EZ boil, and brewed with it for the last X years. I meant to put a Passedpawn Brewing logo in the middle, but...life. I made a LOT of good beer with this sucker.

[edit] here it is, churning away a couple of months ago.

View attachment 816317

Why are you selling, then?

 

[passedpawn]

Why are you selling, then?

I'm buying a smaller system. Tired of hauling these heavy keggles around. I'd keep it all if I had a fixed brewery that didn't need to be packed up after every brewing session. I'm selling a bunch of stuff, will list soon.

[edit] it's listed in For Sale here: Florida - $999 10g Electric Brewery, SS Brewtech, RIMS, pump, chiller, stainless glory!

 

[javajoe1981]

Just an update, contacted Auber and they are sending a replacement contactor to swap out and I will send back the sticker so they can cover it under warranty, great customer service so far!