Tannins in my Bitter….

[hiphoppotamuss]

Common wisdom over the years seems to indicate that squeezing the heck out of your brew bag does not tend to cause extraction of tannins
Well, Here’s a bitter I recently brewed. It’s good but definitely has a distracting tannin aftertaste. I did brew in a bag method in my 10.5 anvil foundry. No mash pipe. Squeezed the heck out of the bag like I always do. What could have gone wrong and how can I prevent this happening in the future? Definitely drinkable , just puckering.


Anvil Foundry 10.5 220V


72.7% efficiency


Batch Volume: 5.5 gal


Boil Time: 60 min





Mash Water: 7.67 gal


Sparge Water: no Sparge


Total Water: 7.67 gal


Boil Volume: 6.96 gal


Pre-Boil Gravity: 1.046





Vitals


Original Gravity: 1.050


Final Gravity (Fixed): 1.010


IBU (Tinseth): 33


BU/GU: 0.65


Color: 14 SRM











Mash


Strike Temp — 159.3 °F


Mash 1 — 151 °F — 60 min

ph 5.4


Mash Out — 167 °F — 10 min





Malts (10 lb 4 oz)


7 lb (68.3%) — Thomas Fawcett Pale Malt, Maris Otter — Grain — 2.8 °L


1 lb 8 oz (14.6%) — Weyermann Barke Pilsner — Grain — 1.9 °L


8 oz (4.9%) — Wheat Flaked — Grain — 1.7 °L


7 oz (4.3%) — Simpsons Crystal Dark — Grain — 100.8 °L


6 oz (3.7%) — Simpsons Crystal Light — Grain — 39.5 °L


6 oz (3.7%) — Briess Oats, Flaked — Grain — 1.6 °L


1 oz (0.6%) — Simpsons Roasted Barley — Grain — 600.1 °L





Hops (81 g)


18 g (19 IBU) — Target 10.3% — Boil — 60 min


9 g (7 IBU) — Challenger 7.5% — Boil — 60 min


9 g (5 IBU) — Northdown 5% — Boil — 60 min


18 g (1 IBU) — Challenger 7.5% — Aroma — 10 min hopstand @ 165 °F


18 g (1 IBU) — Northdown 8.5% — Aroma — 10 min hopstand @ 165 °F


9 g (1 IBU) — Target 11% — Aroma — 10 min hopstand @ 165 °F



Hopstand at 165 °F





Miscs


3 g — Calcium Chloride (CaCl2) — Mash


4 g — Gypsum (CaSO4) — Mash


1.25 ml — Lactic Acid 80% — Mash





Yeast


1 pkg — Imperial Yeast A09 Pub 74%







Fermentation


Primary — 64.4 °F — 10 days


Secondary — 69.8 °F — 4 days





Carbonation: 2.4 CO2-vol

 

[doug293cz]

What was your mash pH, or what did you do to try to control your mash pH? Did you sparge at all, and if so, what was the alkalinity of your sparge water?

By far the most common cause of astringency is the mash pH being in the 6, or higher range, or sparging with water having enough alkalinity to raise the pH above about 6 during the sparge.

Brew on

 

[MaxStout]

Your process said no sparge, so I'll echo the pH issue. With all those light malts, and not a lot of dark, your mash pH may have run high.

If you don't have a pH meter you can use software to predict a good approximation. The free Bru 'n Water spreadsheet is a good one. Some acid malt in the mash could keep pH in range for a brew like that.

 

[hiphoppotamuss]

pH was 5.4 in the mash. At least thats what my pH meter told me.
It was around 5.6 and I used 1.25 ml of lactic acid to get her down to 5.4.

I use the Brewfather water calculator which seems pretty accurate but maybe next time I’ll try Bru ‘n Water.

I’ll also pay extra attention to the pH later in the mash, maybe it was fine at the beginning, but went up towards the end?

Good to know it’s likely not the bag squeezing.

 

[doug293cz]

Did you calibrate your pH meter with fresh buffer standards immediately before you brewed? How long into the mash did you take your pH measurements? IIRC it takes 20 min, plus or minus, for the pH to stabilize during the mash.

Brew on

 

[MaxStout]

pH was 5.4 in the mash. At least thats what my pH meter told me.
It was around 5.6 and I used 1.25 ml of lactic acid to get her down to 5.4.

Good to know it’s likely not the bag squeezing.

Did you measure pH again 15-20 minutes after adding the lactic to confirm that it did go down?

Squeezing the bag won't add tannins.

 

[hiphoppotamuss]

Did you calibrate your pH meter with fresh buffer standards immediately before you brewed? How long into the mash did you take your pH measurements? IIRC it takes 20 min, plus or minus, for the pH to stabilize during the mash.

Brew on

I can’t recall if I calibrated it or not, but usually do so, I’m guessing I did? Probably guilty about being impatient, however. Most likely did not wait a full 20 minutes to take a pH reading.

Also cannot recall if I re-checked the pH after adding the acid, but I’m usually pretty OCD about that … so I’m guessing yes

 

[Bobby_M]

Did you cool the sample down to room temp before you took the reading?

I target a pH of 5.3 to 5.35 because even if I miss a little plus or minus, it's fine.

Was this distilled water you started with? If not, what is the salts profile?

 

[Bramling Cross]

I agree with the others that pH is likely your culprit, but I noticed that you used Target for bittering and in your hop stand. That's not a hop that is known for being terribly smooth. While I tend to use the term "jagged" to describe Target, I could see it possibly being perceived as tannic. Again, I suspect that the others are correct and your pH got away from you, but the Target might be exacerbating that perception.

 

[hiphoppotamuss]

Did you cool the sample down to room temp before you took the reading?

I target a pH of 5.3 to 5.35 because even if I miss a little plus or minus, it's fine.

Was this distilled water you started with? If not, what is the salts profile?

This was the water profile. Yep. Distilled water. I use a little stainless steel dressing container, scoop out some mash and in about 5-10 minutes it’s down to 85-ish degrees. Figure that close enough to room temp for a pH reading?

Interesting thought about the Target. Never used it before but that’s what the recipe called for. I wonder if that’s the culprit

… going back and reading up on Target I see the Co-Humulone is around 38%!
When I get home I’ll restaste and see if it’s more tannic/mouth puckering or jagged!

 

[Brewer dad]

You’ve got some great input already, but I’ll ask this: Did you change anything in your process on this or try anything new be it ingredients or otherwise?

(Insert pre apology in case this has already been asked as I’m skimming while cooking, wrangling kids, and HBTing)

 

[Bramling Cross]

As I'm sitting here guzzling a pint of ordinary bitter, another thing crossed my mind. How's your carbonation on that bitter? Bitters are quite temperamental with regards to carbonation, too much carbonation and they quickly become coarse and unpleasant. They really do like to be served with very low carbonation levels. Pour a glass and give it a vigorous stir to knock out as much CO2 as possible, then have a sip. Better? If so, you just might be over-carbed.

Edit: Also, if that doesn't work, add a drop of 85/88% acid to your glass and give it a stir, did that help? Pour another pint, stir it vigorously to knock out the CO2 and add a smidge of baking soda, stir it again (GENTLY!) did that help? With these data points, you should be able to figure out what went wrong.

 

[sibelman]

Interesting thought about the Target

What @Bramling Cross said. fwiw, last year I dumped a Bitter that I foolishly over-hopped. I almost never dump beer, but I couldn't enjoy it. The "tannic astringency" could be something else.

 

[hiphoppotamuss]

These are all very helpful and interesting thoughts!
Thanks, everyone!
Sitting here, enjoying a pint of what I have now suitably named “DOGBITE BITTER” and I do think I have a case of hop bite as approached to tannin astringency

How to Tell If It's Hop Harshness vs Tannin
Test	Tannins Hop Harshness
Feel	Dry, puckering on teeth/gums Lingering bitterness at the back of
(like over-steeped tea) the tongue
Flavor	Woody, papery, sometimes Spicy, harsh, vegetal, or peppery
acrid if from roasted malt
Timing	Often kicks in during Starts mid-palate and hangs late
finish/dryness
Carbonation effect	Amplifies tannin mouthfeel Amplifies bitterness intensity

The aftertaste is definitely a “ jagged” spicy bitterness at the back of the tongue as opposed to the puckering like sucking on a teabag.

It definitely subsides a little bit after shaking out some of the carbonation so some over carbonation is also to blame. …it’s definitely drinkable. It’s just much more assertive than your average bitter.

In the future, I will definitely continue to pay close attention to my pH but even more so I am going to avoid high cohumulone hops !! And maybe do some more research on the hops. I’m using if I have not used them previously.

 

[Bramling Cross]

If you're kegging, this is an easy fix. Just pull your pressure relief valve and let it mostly gas off. Do it again tomorrow, and the next day. At that point, you should be fine. Just squirt it with enough CO2 to get a slow easy pour after that and you should be golden. One of the fun things that you get to learn about when you're serious about UK ales is the concept of cellarmanship. It can certainly be frustrating, but it's also very rewarding to learn about.

Congrats, my man, you got this figured out and you're on your way! Good stuff!

 

[hiphoppotamuss]

Again. Great advice!

 

[VTMongoose]

I have made countless beers without astringency comprised of 100% pale malts without any pH adjustment that were free of astringency. I certainly think the problem lies outside the tannin issue, and it certainly could be from squeezing the bag. Grain husks are astringent. I'll never forget the first time I pre-rinsed my rice hulls and tasted the water. It was slightly sweet but made my pucker like I'd put sand in my mouth. It's not a chemistry issue, it's physical particulates floating in the beer. Hops are also extremely astringent. When I dry hop my beers these days, I always rack the beer into a serving keg away from the vegetal matter before fining, as if I attempt to fine in the fermentation keg, I have to use so much gelatin and repeated doses, it's pointless.

I would bloom and inject 5 grams of gelatin in the keg and see if you can drop it out of suspension.

edit: One more question @hiphoppotamuss , do you use Whirlfloc? Kettle side finings absolutely can affect flocculation of things on the cold side.

 

[Miraculix]

I have made countless beers without astringency comprised of 100% pale malts without any pH adjustment that were free of astringency. I certainly think the problem lies outside the tannin issue, and it certainly could be from squeezing the bag. Grain husks are astringent. I'll never forget the first time I pre-rinsed my rice hulls and tasted the water. It was slightly sweet but made my pucker like I'd put sand in my mouth. It's not a chemistry issue, it's physical particulates floating in the beer. Hops are also extremely astringent. When I dry hop my beers these days, I always rack the beer into a serving keg away from the vegetal matter before fining, as if I attempt to fine in the fermentation keg, I have to use so much gelatin and repeated doses, it's pointless.

I would bloom and inject 5 grams of gelatin in the keg and see if you can drop it out of suspension.

This is actually a possibility. Been there as well.

Another thing that might have happened is oxidation of hop compounds. This might taste bitter in an astringent way that is very unpleasant.

 

[doug293cz]

I certainly think the problem lies outside the tannin issue, and it certainly could be from squeezing the bag. Grain husks are astringent.

What would squeezing bring out of the husks that is astringent, but is not tannin? Also, if squeezing causes extraction from the husks of tannin, or other astringent compounds, how do all of the breweries that pulverize the grain with a hammer mill, and lauter with a filter press (that squeezes harder than any homebrewer can possibly squeeze) avoid astringent beer?

Brew on

 

[Miraculix]

What would squeezing bring out of the husks that is astringent, but is not tannin? Also, if squeezing causes extraction from the husks of tannin, or other astringent compounds, how do all of the breweries that pulverize the grain with a hammer mill, and lauter with a filter press (that squeezes harder than any homebrewer can possibly squeeze) avoid astringent beer?

Brew on

Once it is all settled/filtered, it is no problem anymore.

 

[VTMongoose]

What would squeezing bring out of the husks that is astringent, but is not tannin? Also, if squeezing causes extraction from the husks of tannin, or other astringent compounds, how do all of the breweries that pulverize the grain with a hammer mill, and lauter with a filter press (that squeezes harder than any homebrewer can possibly squeeze) avoid astringent beer?

Brew on

Easy, filtration, finings, lagering, water chemistry. I used none of that when I made a series of Hefeweizen batches that were horribly astringent and the one variable I changed that eliminated it was pre-washing my rice hulls. That's a style where I used no finings, soft water, and the yeast and contents of the bottle are intentionally roused. So there's no avoiding it.

I've brewed at commercial breweries that threw those exact same rice hulls in without pre-washing anything and made pristine beer. It depends a lot on process and if you're able to separate or drop out those particulates later in the process.

I'm saying all this to make the point that the answer is more nuanced than "squeezing the bag does or does not cause astringency".