Tannins in beer - removal suggestions?

[keesh]

Hey all - how we doin' today?

My beer has a tannin issue! Here is the rundown -

I recently tried to do a BIAB SMaSH pale ale using 2 row and Cascade hops. Long story short, I grossly underestimated the size of the bag I had, and had no conversion whatsoever after a good 1 hour soak and a sparge.

Basically what we did was dump the grains out of the bag into the water and let them do their thing. We then scooped out the grain with a strainer and poured the rest through a colander. We finally hit the gravity we wanted and boiled as normal.

It looked like we got a good hot break and I added my irish moss. I then chilled with my IC in ~10 minutes (so I think I had a good cold break but I'm not sure), and transferred to my carboy with an auto-siphon after whirl pooling. I then tasted it at this point, and it had a strong astringency at the back of my palette (though the malty/cereal/nutty taste was excellent up front.)

Fast forward 2 weeks and I pulled a sample to test the gravity and it attenuated well and is crystal clear, however it definitely had some astringency left, though I think a bit less.

I am planning on cold-crashing it and adding gelatin during this time, what are the chances that this will help me achieve a drinkable beer? Any other suggestions, other than time? How long should I leave it in the fridge for my 'cold-crash'? Thanks.

 

[gypsyhead]

Your descriptors sound like you really know what you're doing but:

• How do you know there was no conversion (iodine test)?
• Hour soak at what temp?
• What's you water chem like, and did you make any adjustments?

 

[FarmBoy530]

I just brewed and kegged a Session IPA. Tasted very astringent out of the boil and a bit less out of the primary. By the end of 2ndary and tasting with the first 2 days of carb a bit less, but still there. when carb was done, 3ish days it was better but thin and tea like. A week later after aging in the keg fridge its delicious! Also I cold conditioned at 58' for the 2nd week of the 2ndary. Moral of the story is give it time, cool aging temp and pressure and it may have a chance! Good Luck!

 

[RM-MN]

There are two conditions that both must be met to extract tannins. Your mash must be alkaline, not acidic and the temperature must be over 170 degrees. If either of these didn't happen, you didn't extract tannins. If you mashed over 170, you denatured the enzymes so you never will get conversion. Your water would have to be terribly akaline for the grains to not be able to make the mash acidic.

 

[pjj2ba]

It could be tannins, or it could just be the hops. The latter will fade. If it is tannins, I believe I read somewhere that polyclar might help to remove some.

 

[keesh]

Your descriptors sound like you really know what you're doing but:

• How do you know there was no conversion (iodine test)?
• Hour soak at what temp?
• What's you water chem like, and did you make any adjustments?

Thanks for the help!

Funny story with the iodine - I had picked up some from Rite-Aid a while ago, and on the night of I went and grabbed it and poured a drop or two on the grain. It poured out like clear water. Turns out it was freakin' de-colorized! What a disappointment. We know there was no conversion because we took the gravity - it was essentially 0.

We soaked at 152 F

I am definitely going to check out my local water report because I have no idea what the water chemistry is, that is something I should have done. I will most definitely be doing that before I make any other AG attempts.

Thanks!

 

[weirdboy]

Yeah, if it's really tannins, I would try using some finings like gelatin or isinglass.

 

[keesh]

I just brewed and kegged a Session IPA. Tasted very astringent out of the boil and a bit less out of the primary. By the end of 2ndary and tasting with the first 2 days of carb a bit less, but still there. when carb was done, 3ish days it was better but thin and tea like. A week later after aging in the keg fridge its delicious! Also I cold conditioned at 58' for the 2nd week of the 2ndary. Moral of the story is give it time, cool aging temp and pressure and it may have a chance! Good Luck!

Awesome, thanks for the advice and the anecdote of your own. Sounds like we are on the same road somewhat. I have high hopes that it will end up tasty after some aging and cold-conditioning. Unfortunately I haven't invested in a kegging system yet, so I will be bottling but it sounds like that will have some positive effects.

 

[weirdboy]

One thing I would advise if you are cold conditioning, is to IMMEDIATELY rack off to bottling bucket (or keg) while it is still very cold when you plan to package it. You don't want to let it warm up while on the sediment, or you will get that stuff coming back into solution and also probably get permanent chill haze to boot.

 

[keesh]

There are two conditions that both must be met to extract tannins. Your mash must be alkaline, not acidic and the temperature must be over 170 degrees. If either of these didn't happen, you didn't extract tannins. If you mashed over 170, you denatured the enzymes so you never will get conversion. Your water would have to be terribly akaline for the grains to not be able to make the mash acidic.

Yeah we definitely got conversion because our after-boil gravity was 1.060, and we didn't hit anything over 170. It sounds like the levels of alkaline in the water are too high. Here is my 2010 water report: http://www.sandiego.gov/water/quality/pdf/waterqual10.pdf I can't find anything that says 'alkalinity' or 'bicarbonate' but the carbon levels are 2.76 on average. I don't think that is what I am looking for, though. Can anyone decipher it for me? I am between the 'Alvarado' and 'Otay' treatment plant, so both are probably relevant. If I have to I will just call into the office.

 

[keesh]

It could be tannins, or it could just be the hops. The latter will fade. If it is tannins, I believe I read somewhere that polyclar might help to remove some.

Is polyclar better than gelatin?

 

[keesh]

One thing I would advise if you are cold conditioning, is to IMMEDIATELY rack off to bottling bucket (or keg) while it is still very cold when you plan to package it. You don't want to let it warm up while on the sediment, or you will get that stuff coming back into solution and also probably get permanent chill haze to boot.

Thanks weirdboy! I will definitely avoid letting it warm up. When cold conditioning, is there any amount of time that is 'too long'? I can't really see any negative effects of it, since it is basically like a lagering, except possibly too much yeast falling out of solution. We used S-05. Does anyone think the combination of irish moss @ the boil and gelatin + cold conditioning might cause problems with bottle conditioning?

 

[weirdboy]

Polyclar and gelatin are two different types of finings, that actually work on different molecules. I just went back and double-checked, and yet again I got them backwards (I swear I do it every single time...I never learn).

Polyclar is the one to use. Gelatin and isinglass are positively charged and work on suspended yeast (which have a slight negative charge) and I believe other proteins, while polyclar is negatively charged, and works on tannins and other polyphenols that have a slight positive charge.

http://***********/stories/techniques/article/indices/23-clarity/948-just-fine



There isn't really a limit on length of cold conditioning, but keep in mind that long term cold conditioning can drop the yeast out of suspension, so if it is over a few months, you might want to actually add back some yeast when you plan to bottle it so that it will carbonate. I have cold crashed for a couple of weeks and then primed/bottled without any troubles, and got very clear beer that way.

 

[FarmBoy530]

Tannins do grab proteins and drop out to some extent just not fully most of the time. Also remember tannins are good to, not all bad. They give beer flavor and mouth feel and certain levels. However if you had no conversion, almost no gravity, then you wont have beer either. From reading your post it sounds like the bag didn't work (maybe after and hour) so u used a pot (for maybe another hour) where you finely got your conversion? if thats right then it very well could be tannins. Did you mash out and what was your sparge temp? And reading your original post again I would say if you sparged twice then you were overdoing it for your grain.

 

[keesh]

Polyclar and gelatin are two different types of finings, that actually work on different molecules. I just went back and double-checked, and yet again I got them backwards (I swear I do it every single time...I never learn).

Polyclar is the one to use. Gelatin and isinglass are positively charged and work on suspended yeast (which have a slight negative charge) and I believe other proteins, while polyclar is negatively charged, and works on tannins and other polyphenols that have a slight positive charge.

http://***********/stories/techniques/article/indices/23-clarity/948-just-fine



There isn't really a limit on length of cold conditioning, but keep in mind that long term cold conditioning can drop the yeast out of suspension, so if it is over a few months, you might want to actually add back some yeast when you plan to bottle it so that it will carbonate. I have cold crashed for a couple of weeks and then primed/bottled without any troubles, and got very clear beer that way.

Wow weirdboy, excellent link! You are incredibly helpful. I am glad I didn't go with the gelatin route because it sounds like that would have been more harmful than helpful, because a lot of the yeast have already dropped out of suspension. I think I finally am on the right track to getting what will cure this ailing ale!

As far as length of time for cold conditioning, the yeast over-flocculating is something I am afraid of. Maybe I'll just have to go out and buy a keg kit? :cross: Just kidding. If I have to I will pitch some more yeast, but I won't cross that bridge until I get there. Thanks again for your help.

 

[keesh]

Tannins do grab proteins and drop out to some extent just not fully most of the time. Also remember tannins are good to, not all bad. They give beer flavor and mouth feel and certain levels. However if you had no conversion, almost no gravity, then you wont have beer either. From reading your post it sounds like the bag didn't work (maybe after and hour) so u used a pot (for maybe another hour) where you finely got your conversion? if thats right then it very well could be tannins. Did you mash out and what was your sparge temp? And reading your original post again I would say if you sparged twice then you were overdoing it for your grain.

Yeah, sorry if I wasn't clear enough in my original post. You are exactly right, we tried the bag and it didn't work after an hour soak/sparge, so we did a BIAB without the bag by dumping it all in 6.5 gallons of the hot water. We then soaked at 152 AGAIN, which is probably what gave us all of the tannins. I can't believe we got any conversion at all because we sparged with 170F water on the first go.

Also, good point on the tannins. I don't necessarily want all of the tannins out, and the flavor profile they add can be good in certain styles. However, because this is a SMaSH beer I can't really rely on other grains to compliment my 2 row. That being said, I don't want to think out the body or mute any of the actual grain flavor I am looking for. We will see what happens.

 

[Yooper]

It could be tannins, or it could just be the hops. The latter will fade. If it is tannins, I believe I read somewhere that polyclar might help to remove some.

I think that polyclar does work for tannins, and lagering will also encourage tannins to drop out.

 

[weirdboy]

I really wouldn't worry about gelatin dropping out too much yeast. I have used gelatin for years and never had a problem with priming and conditioning after a cold crash and gelatin finings, and a week or two of cold conditioning.

Some people who lager for months and then try to bottle apparently have issues due to the long term cold storage. I have never personally experienced that issue, but was passing along the recommended solution just in case.

 

[keesh]

I think that polyclar does work for tannins, and lagering will also encourage tannins to drop out.

Thanks, that is what my plan is. It is really helpful to see so many people agreeing on the same thing, it helps my confidence that this beer will end up drinkable.

I really wouldn't worry about gelatin dropping out too much yeast. I have used gelatin for years and never had a problem with priming and conditioning after a cold crash and gelatin finings, and a week or two of cold conditioning.

Some people who lager for months and then try to bottle apparently have issues due to the long term cold storage. I have never personally experienced that issue, but was passing along the recommended solution just in case.

I have always thought that it was nearly impossible to have a yeast population so low that it would cause troubles with bottle conditioning. It would take, like you said, a long lagering period, filtration, or some chemical additives like nitrites to do so. I am confident that I won't have any issues... thanks!