T58 needs more love

[MikeCo]

If you didn't like T-58 in a BDSA, you're probably really not going to like it in a tripel. But it's all a matter of taste, of course; I happen to like Abbaye a lot. Thinking out of the box a little, what about Lallemand Wit?

I’m thinking maybe something went wrong with my fermentation, so I’d like to give it another chance before I blame the yeast completely.

 

[AmarikinBrew]

I may have only a handful of brews under my belt in just a couple years…. But I’m going to declare t58 doesn’t get the love it deserves. This yeast is super easy to use, blast through fermentation like a bandit, and makes a tasty beer with spicy notes and bubblegum. I’ve used it twice now and really like it. Once in a saison and just recently in a wit. Just thought I’d spread the word.

Wondering what was your temp range to get the bubblegum notes?

 

[Jloewe]

Wondering what was your temp range to get the bubblegum notes?

I went with 68. They’ve kind of faded in the next few bottles and the peppery notes have kind of taken over. So maybe it’s not as bubblegum as I wanted. Still a delicious beer though so I’m not worried.

 

[leedspointbrew]

I'm going to be brewing a buckwheat ale, reverse engineered from a Breton beer called Tellen Du. The input I've been getting suggests Belgian grain and yeast influences. I'm thinking this might be a good yeast to try.

 

[Sipina]

This might just be the dry yeast I am looking for to get the peppery notes.

Can anyone else confirm the peppery phenolics with this yeast and what did you do to get them?

What are some of the ester notes people are getting from this yeast?

 

[AmarikinBrew]

This might just be the dry yeast I am looking for to get the peppery notes.

Can anyone else confirm the peppery phenolics with this yeast and what did you do to get them?

What are some of the ester notes people are getting from this yeast?

I had the same result as @Jloewe fading bubblegum and only pepper left. Kept temp steady 67F all the way thru. It was a Wit so it worked good for that.

 

[Miraculix]

Only pepper left sounds actually marvelous to me!

 

[Sipina]

Only pepper left sounds actually marvelous to me!

I have one 11g packet T-58 in my fridge and the news about the peppery notes are motivating indeed. I want to use it for my next brew however I don't think I will manage to keep the temperature of fermentation low enough in the summer to get the desired resutls therefore I think my best bet is to wait until cooler ambient temperatures.

 

[Jloewe]

Don’t mind the mess or daipers for my friend’s baby shower. But my wit. It’s pretty good I’m super happy with it.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

Gotta dash but just to clear up a couple of things :

Seems its the other way around, the belgian and german yeasts when to the us and then from there to the uk , there is a very nice article about is ->

That's literally the opposite of what happened - and that article says so, that they went from Britain to the US.

Pardon my ignorance but wouldn’t one yeast colony try to destroy the other?

Nope - you have to remember that single strain yeasts are aberrations, multistrains were historically the norm - and still are in British family breweries. They don't destroy each other unless they are killer strains (which brewing yeast aren't in general), although one may outcompete another over generations.

Did you find some scientific info about this?, all i find are rumors.

The S-33 is suppose to be edme, and that's an entirely different beast then the T-58.

It's not S-33 "is" EDME, but like Windsor it is descended from EDME. And T-58 is a cousin - the phenolics come from a 2-gene cassette which is relatively easy to insert or disable, in all other regards it's pretty similar to Windsor/S-33. Low attenuation, similar esters etc.

Here, for example, are the results of genetic sequencing by Kristoffer Krogerus: Brewing yeast family tree (Oct 2019 update)

Suregork didn't do the sequencing, he just assembled the family tree based on public sequences - still a non-trivial job.

Don't like it, never have. Just too phenolic for me, or the phenolics are off, and not at all in a good way. I've tried it in a few Belgians with (unsurprisingly) poor results. Can't imagine it in something English.

In that case your experience of English beers is too limited - contrary to the propaganda of US yeast labs, phenolic yeast are fairly common here in traditional breweries. About 40% of the "core" Brewlab strains mention phenolics in their descriptions.

There's no phenolic English beers known now but they used to exist in the 19th century. For example beers fermented in Squares were said to have a phenolic twang.

They still exist - you can certainly detect the phenolics in a fresh pint of cask Harvey's or Sam Smiths. But the breweries with phenolic yeast work quite hard to suppress the phenolics, or at least move them to the background - one could argue that's the reason for brewing in squares (which still happens) which are indeed apparently associated with saison-family yeast.

I've tried T-58 in bitter and it's a bit meh - it's OK, but it doesn't bring much interesting to the party. However it is very biotransformative, it turns the grapefruit of eg Chinook into a more complex mix led by lime.

And yes, it goes off like a rocket, so watch those airlocks!

 

[Miraculix]

Gotta dash but just to clear up a couple of things :


That's literally the opposite of what happened - and that article says so, that they went from Britain to the US.

Nope - you have to remember that single strain yeasts are aberrations, multistrains were historically the norm - and still are in British family breweries. They don't destroy each other unless they are killer strains (which brewing yeast aren't in general), although one may outcompete another over generations.

It's not S-33 "is" EDME, but like Windsor it is descended from EDME. And T-58 is a cousin - the phenolics come from a 2-gene cassette which is relatively easy to insert or disable, in all other regards it's pretty similar to Windsor/S-33. Low attenuation, similar esters etc.

Suregork didn't do the sequencing, he just assembled the family tree based on public sequences - still a non-trivial job.

In that case your experience of English beers is too limited - contrary to the propaganda of US yeast labs, phenolic yeast are fairly common here in traditional breweries. About 40% of the "core" Brewlab strains mention phenolics in their descriptions.

They still exist - you can certainly detect the phenolics in a fresh pint of cask Harvey's or Sam Smiths. But the breweries with phenolic yeast work quite hard to suppress the phenolics, or at least move them to the background - one could argue that's the reason for brewing in squares (which still happens) which are indeed apparently associated with saison-family yeast.

I've tried T-58 in bitter and it's a bit meh - it's OK, but it doesn't bring much interesting to the party. However it is very biotransformative, it turns the grapefruit of eg Chinook into a more complex mix led by lime.

And yes, it goes off like a rocket, so watch those airlocks!

Ok, notti/t58 Chinook smash here we go!

 

[Shenanigans]

Interesting thread

I brewed a micro (OG 1.035) NEIPA last weekend based on Whiplash Northen Lights.
I did a 45L batch with 300g Mosaic in the whirlpool.
I split it into two fermenters and they are currently fermenting, one with Verdant and and one with US-05; I'll also dry hop them differenly.

Anyway I had about 3 liters left over and put it in a 5l glass carboy.
Coincidentally I had an old pack of T-58 in the fridge so sprinkled about 1/4 of a pack into the wort.
I still need to decide on the dry hop but should be interesting to see how it turns out.

 

[Jloewe]

Hi, all. Speaking of T-58, it's the yeast included with a Brewer's Best kit that I'm currently fermenting. The kit recipe is called "Belgian Saison" but from what I'm reading in this thread, that might be an overstatement? At least in terms of the yeast?

Anyway, fermentation has gone smoothly and SG is leveling out as it approaches 1.011, bottom of target range per the recipe.

My question: I was talking to a professional brewer who said that saison yeasts can be problematic (e.g., the "stat" gene that can cause stuck mashes) and he said if I use a plastic bucket fermenter (which I do), I should not use it again after fermenting with saison yeast. He said it can infiltrate the plastic and cause problems for later batches, including "drying" the beer. Whatever that means. Future saison batches should be fermented in a glass carboy, he said.

I'm wondering what you, the yeast experts, think about that? First of all, T-58 doesn't sound like the kind of yeast I need to worry about. But what about the whole thing about plastic being compromised by yeast? I go months between batches, so I doubt any yeast is robust enough to survive for that long, but I'm a newbie, what do I know. Thanks.

This was the other time I used t-58 in that exact kit. It’s a very good kit. I added a couple extra pounds of 2 row and a can of pumpkin to make it a pumpkin saison. Unfortunately no pic of that one but it was kind of this brilliant orange color. I loved it. I’m still kind of intermediate myself but back then I’d only done a couple batches. This is a super easy yeast and that’s a delicious kit you’ll be super happy!

 

[Sipina]

Have any of you played with relatively warm fermentations with T-58, let's say 25 celsius or warmer?

 

[z-bob]

Have any of you played with relatively warm fermentations with T-58, let's say 25 celsius or warmer?

Yes. I used it in a wheat beer (something like 55% 2-row and 45% wheat malt, with Saaz hops) fermented in a hot kitchen where the ambient kitchen was at least 25°C and the fermentation temp would have been a little higher. I thought it turned out good, but I don't remember enough about it to be more specific.

 

[wepeeler]

T58 gets made fun of in my brew club. Much like Fuggles hops. Never used either, so I just go along with the jokes.

 

[Jloewe]

T58 gets made fun of in my brew club. Much like Fuggles hops. Never used either, so I just go along with the jokes.

That just makes me want to make a delicious beer with T58 and fuggles

 

[Northern_Brewer]

T58 gets made fun of in my brew club. Much like Fuggles hops. Never used either, so I just go along with the jokes.

I'm definitely Team Goldings but see p54 of Ferment issue 58 // The Beer52 Awards 2020
Steve Dunkley of Beer Nouveau and Temperance Street Brewery in Manchester has experimented with larger volumes of Fuggle hops and reports incredible results. Beer Nouveau specialises in brewing historic and heritage beers, rebrewing recipes from as far back as Ancient Egypt and the time of the Vikings. Steve tells me that he used Fuggles in the recreation of a recipe from the 1800s. “The sheer volumes of hops that they used meant that the essential oils that carry the aromas couldn’t escape in steam during the boil, they recirculated back into the bulk of the wort and isomerised there” he explains. “Beers we’ve brewed like this have smelled as fresh 18 months later as they did when we first brewed them.” He goes on to explain that Fuggle is a great hop for understanding the impact of this effect. “When you use it in small quantities, like it has been done recently, it’s pretty average. But when you use a lot of it, you get wonderful mango/stone fruit aromas and flavours.” Steve tells me that the difference is so pronounced that the profile has confused many who have taken a sip. “Drinkers trying it without knowing the hops have guessed that it’s an NZ hop.”

And if you want to confuse people, take a gyle of 1.050 pale wort with bittering and say 6g/l Chinook spread over late/whirlpool/dry hop, and split it with fermentation by US-05 and T-58. Then ask people what hop the second one is using...

 

[Sipina]

That just makes me want to make a delicious beer with T58 and fuggles

Well, I have 100g of fuggles and a pack of t58 in my fridge....

 

[Miraculix]

I'm definitely Team Goldings but see p54 of Ferment issue 58 // The Beer52 Awards 2020
Steve Dunkley of Beer Nouveau and Temperance Street Brewery in Manchester has experimented with larger volumes of Fuggle hops and reports incredible results. Beer Nouveau specialises in brewing historic and heritage beers, rebrewing recipes from as far back as Ancient Egypt and the time of the Vikings. Steve tells me that he used Fuggles in the recreation of a recipe from the 1800s. “The sheer volumes of hops that they used meant that the essential oils that carry the aromas couldn’t escape in steam during the boil, they recirculated back into the bulk of the wort and isomerised there” he explains. “Beers we’ve brewed like this have smelled as fresh 18 months later as they did when we first brewed them.” He goes on to explain that Fuggle is a great hop for understanding the impact of this effect. “When you use it in small quantities, like it has been done recently, it’s pretty average. But when you use a lot of it, you get wonderful mango/stone fruit aromas and flavours.” Steve tells me that the difference is so pronounced that the profile has confused many who have taken a sip. “Drinkers trying it without knowing the hops have guessed that it’s an NZ hop.”

And if you want to confuse people, take a gyle of 1.050 pale wort with bittering and say 6g/l Chinook spread over late/whirlpool/dry hop, and split it with fermentation by US-05 and T-58. Then ask people what hop the second one is using...

I'm about to do exactly that, but with notti instead of us05.

And probably some chinook mash hops.

 

[Shenanigans]

Interesting thread

I brewed a micro (OG 1.035) NEIPA last weekend based on Whiplash Northen Lights.
I did a 45L batch with 300g Mosaic in the whirlpool.
I split it into two fermenters and they are currently fermenting, one with Verdant and and one with US-05; I'll also dry hop them differenly.

Anyway I had about 3 liters left over and put it in a 5l glass carboy.
Coincidentally I had an old pack of T-58 in the fridge so sprinkled about 1/4 of a pack into the wort.
I still need to decide on the dry hop but should be interesting to see how it turns out.

I totally forgot about these 3 liters and found them when packaging my other finished beer on the weekend.
As I hadn't added a dry hop yet I didn't package it.
Not a very NEIPAish hop but I had some leftover Simcoe (40g) and threw them in loose a few days ago.
I'll put it in one of those 5l mini kegs and carb it sometime later this week.

 

[Shenanigans]

I totally forgot about these 3 liters and found them when packaging my other finished beer on the weekend.
As I hadn't added a dry hop yet I didn't package it.
Not a very NEIPAish hop but I had some leftover Simcoe (40g) and threw them in loose a few days ago.
I'll put it in one of those 5l mini kegs and carb it sometime later this week.

I only got around to transfering it just now, so it was dry hopping at room temperature for 11 days.
The warm uncarbed beer tastes a bit meh but lets see how it is cold and on the gas for a week.
It finished at 1.005 so there might have been some hop creep as the Verdant, which I softcrashed before dry hopping, finished at 1.011 with the same wort.

 

[Shenanigans]

I only got around to transfering it just now, so it was dry hopping at room temperature for 11 days.
The warm uncarbed beer tastes a bit meh but lets see how it is cold and on the gas for a week.
It finished at 1.005 so there might have been some hop creep as the Verdant, which I softcrashed before dry hopping, finished at 1.011 with the same wort.

Well I tasted it again cold and partially carbed and it is way too bitter.
Just a reminder the wort was a few liters I had left over from a session NEIPA.
I did a split batch with Verdant and US-05 which both turned out tasty and crushable at around 3.5%.
The leftovers with T-58 fermented way to far and tates like one of those poor examples of a session IPA, no body and too bitter.
Not the fault of the yeast so I can't really contribute much to this tread.
Is Simcoe one of the hops known to promote hop creep?

 

[Lampy]

This thread helped convince me to try out T58 in lieu of the more pricey Belgian yeast. My wheat ale had nice clovey flavors and aroma, while my "honey pale ale" came out with distinctly "Belgian" esters/spice. Maybe not for everyone, but I like it!