Substitute yeast for a "Mexican Lager" (Negra Modelo)

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I'm planning to brew a Negra Modelo inspired beer, knowing I probably won't hit it exactly and that's OK. It looks like I'll need to choose between various Wyeast options for it. I'd like to hit it somewhat closely, or at least not add unwanted flavors.

I'm currently debating between:
* 2124 Bohemian
* 2278 Czech

I've brewed for decades but very few lagers, so I don't have much experience to pull from. If it matters, I tend to like the majority of the beers from Mexico, love Plisner Urquell, and typically dislike any and all Helles beer.

If anyone might make a good recommendation, I'd greatly appreciate it!

 

[FloppyKnockers]

I say bohemian, hands down. My best luck with that beer is 34/70. I think Czech might give you that "sucking on paperclips" flavor. Great for Czech beers. Not so much for Negra Modelo.

 

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I used 34/70 on a "cold IPA" once, and wasn't a huge fan. I don't think anything went wrong, and I know folks love it, but... I dunno if it was for me. It had a bit of that flavor I don't like when I drink lagers I don't like. I wish I could explain it better (seems prominent in Helles beers).

I did this recipe once with the Omega OYL-113 and liked it a lot. I'm tweaking things a bit but not sure I can get it this time. Thanks for the Bohemian suggestion, I was leaning that way as well.

 

[MaxStout]

Isn't Negra Modelo essentially a Vienna lager? I would think any yeast for Vienna lager would do nicely.

 

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Yes, they describe it as a Munich Dunkel but most folks say it's a Vienna lager, or at least in between the two.

I feel like it's got a Mexican vibe to it though, that I didn't get from other Vienna lagers I've tried. Probably me imagining things, maybe because the Negra Modelo was paired w/ chips and salsa that I didn't have handy when I tried other Vienna lagers at other times.

I'm ordering from Ritebrew and they are out of the Omega I used last time and want, and don't have White Labs or Imperial options. So I'm choosing a Wyeast or delaying the brew and making something else instead. Would love to go for this with a Wyeast as opposed to waiting, however.

(A while back I got a lot of help on this recipe regarding the grain options, and have been wanting to make another for quite a while. I've got a NEIPA and Imperial Stout on tap currently and I think this would be a nice change of pace.)

 

[dmtaylor]

Wyeast 2278 is a closely related cousin to WLP940 Mexican Lager. So I might go with the 2278. However all these yeasts are so closely related to one another that we are truly splitting hairs.

Suregork's Brewing yeast tree Oct 2019

 

[FloppyKnockers]

Wyeast 2278 is a closely related cousin to WLP940 Mexican Lager. So I might go with the 2278. However all these yeasts are so closely related to one another that we are truly splitting hairs.

View attachment 838324

Suregork's Brewing yeast tree Oct 2019

I've used Mexican lager (White labs) in this clone before and although it tastes amazing, it does remove it from Negra Modelo. Takes it to a dark Estrella is they made such a thing.

 

[FloppyKnockers]

I love that yeast tree, too. I found one of just dry yeast from a very reliable and deviatatingly handsome source.

 

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I've used Mexican lager (White labs) in this clone before and although it tastes amazing, it does remove it from Negra Modelo. Takes it to a dark Estrella is they made such a thing.

So.... hmm. I very much considered your recommendations, but was actually about to go w/ the Czech yeast since I liked its description a little better. And admittedly also just to get it done. But now it's gone out of stock as well! Sigh.

So, I'm a bit back on the idea that you've attempted this beer a few times? And as mentioned recommend Bohemian of the earlier choices, or even better the 34/70? Mind sharing your "best" attempt at it? Maybe I'll tweak my grain bill some as well.

I'm not really trying to clone it, but then I take a step back and realize that I sort of am. It's the inspiration for what I want to brew, and there's really nothing I'm trying to change about it, which one would probably say is cloning it. As far as taste goes, anyhow.

 

[FloppyKnockers]

So.... hmm. I very much considered your recommendations, but was actually about to go w/ the Czech yeast since I liked its description a little better. And admittedly also just to get it done. But now it's gone out of stock as well! Sigh.

So, I'm a bit back on the idea that you've attempted this beer a few times? And as mentioned recommend Bohemian of the earlier choices, or even better the 34/70? Mind sharing your "best" attempt at it? Maybe I'll tweak my grain bill some as well.

I'm not really trying to clone it, but then I take a step back and realize that I sort of am. It's the inspiration for what I want to brew, and there's really nothing I'm trying to change about it, which one would probably say is cloning it. As far as taste goes, anyhow.

This is my wife's favorite beer, so yes, I have made it several times. I try different yeast depending on what I have and if I wanna try different things.

My "best" attempt had to be the first time and did it with 34/70 since it sells itself as a Bohemian lager and that's what my clone recipe called for. The White Labs Mexican lager yeast was a close second. It made it taste 'brighter', if that makes sense, but deviated from the clone. The most surprisingly good attempt was when I used US-05 to make an ale out of it. We called it Negra Mod-ale-o.

For full transparency, I used the recipe from Clone Brews which calls for Bohemian lager.

 

[fluketamer]

i just kegged a side by side mexican pilsner that i put a decent amoutn of corn into. one used repitched cellarscince baja slurry. which i think may be the equivalent to 940. the other used cellarscince german dry yeast. which i think is 34/70 perhaps. they both came out very good but the german is much more malt forward then the baja. the baja is one of the cleanest tasteless yeasts i have brewed with. its only fault is that it has a little trouble with malt forward beers. it can bring out the hops tho. the german is very malt forward.
i have also used 23 in the past which is good but very intolerant of higher temps. imo. and i used daimond lager for about a year. its a very clean lager yeast very neutral . very quick and can handle a lot of repitches. its a really good yeast.

theres a decent thread on baja where one of the posters breweed a modelo negro clone with this yeast a few times.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/threads/cellarscience-baja-experiences.726028/page-2
good luck. what ever yeast you go with let us know how it turns out

 

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Thank you, very much everyone! OK, Bohemian it is, I'll give it a try and am optimistic I'll like it. Order placed.

I will do my best to remember to follow up! I appreciate when others do and will aim to do the same.

 

[JohnDBrewer]

Modelo, to me, has a nice mouth feel and a light residual sweetness and 2278 gets you closest to that. (2124 is right in there, too, but I have more experience with 2278.)
That being said, any of the yeast above will give you a great lager. If you can, split your batch and try two different yeasts, then give us your opinion.

 

[fluketamer]

Modelo, to me, has a nice mouth feel and a light residual sweetness and 2278 gets you closest to that. (2124 is right in there, too, but I have more experience with 2278.)
That being said, any of the yeast above will give you a great lager. If you can split your batch and try two different yeasts, then give us your opinion.

with all this talk of modelo im going to have to take another look at that beer.

i always stayed away from that beer and all dark mexican beers just not thinking they were mexican . i always associated mexican lagers with corona and then went from there to all the mexican lagers . like presidente ( mexican?) , modelo, tecrappy, and victoria. also just drinking dark beers in the summer was never for me.

but a few years ago i started drinking more pbr and took a real liking to it. i soon found out they they did a major recipe change i think around ten years ago with craft beer explosion and that it definately was much more maltier and even a little hoppier than it was in the 90's etc.

pabst blue ribbon is still a good beer btw imo. and definately different from the pabst i stole from my older brothers when i was in high school getting hammered in the bleachers with Marry Rottencrotch. god that brigns back memories of schlitz, schaffer, rolling rock jenny screamers. ballentines triple x. the list goes on and on. those beers were absolute water in the 90's. i once watched my older brothers friend drink 21 of them in two hours while playing zork on a commodore 64. wow sorry for the all the 80's and 90's references here.

i havent had a modelo negro in ten years, im going to get one the next time i see one.

 

[shavy]

Isn't Negra Modelo essentially a Vienna lager? I would think any yeast for Vienna lager would do nicely.

I brewed a Vienna lager not too long ago using WLP838 (Southern German Lager). It was delicious. I didn’t do a “side by side” comparison but, I would say it’s very close to a Negro Modelo.

 

[lumbergh]

i just kegged a side by side mexican pilsner that i put a decent amoutn of corn into. one used repitched cellarscince baja slurry. which i think may be the equivalent to 940. the other used cellarscince german dry yeast. which i think is 34/70 perhaps. they both came out very good but the german is much more malt forward then the baja. the baja is one of the cleanest tasteless yeasts i have brewed with. its only fault is that it has a little trouble with malt forward beers. it can bring out the hops tho. the german is very malt forward.
i have also used 23 in the past which is good but very intolerant of higher temps. imo. and i used daimond lager for about a year. its a very clean lager yeast very neutral . very quick and can handle a lot of repitches. its a really good yeast.

theres a decent thread on baja where one of the posters breweed a modelo negro clone with this yeast a few times.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/threads/cellarscience-baja-experiences.726028/page-2
good luck. what ever yeast you go with let us know how it turns out

That would be me. Turns out great every time.

 

[rtstrider]

I'd go 2124 personally if those were the only two choices. However White Labs sells the Modelo strain year round WLP940 or you can get the dry version from Morebeer

https://www.morebeer.com/products/cellarscience-dry-yeast-baja-placeholder.html
I've had less than optimal results with the dry version so keep that in mind. WLP940 was a pretty good strain though If you want to get fancy then you could go with Que Bueno (bet that's the modelo strain) or Omega Mexican Lager.

 

[beersk]

I personally like Wyeast 2007 Pilsen Lager. It's an American lager strain recommended for International Dark Lagers and works quite well in the style. I consider it to be Wyeast's version of WLP940 or Omega's Mexican Lager, though I don't know if it actually is. It just performs similarly I think and creates a wonderful beer.

A lot of Negra Modelo is caramel malt sweetness with lower hop bitterness. I don't know that's necessarily residual sweetness from lower attenuation.

 

[AzOr]

How about WLP840? It’s marketed for American lagers but I don’t know the strain history.
Admittedly I’ve only brewed with it three times and they have all been low abv mini pilsners (between 2.75-3%abv).

For me, this strain took at least six weeks to condition. Prior to then it was flabby and boring. After conditioning, the flavors really popped and they became good beers.

I’d brew more with 840 but it’s not found locally.

…..and for me, sometimes laziness beats quality.

 

[Cheshire Cat]

I’ve made Vienna lager and Modelo clone using MJ M54. All turned out well.

 

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I'm still planning to eventually get a bottle of this beer and compare it to the one I made, especially in regards to the yeast if I manage to actually pick out its contributions.

brewed it a little less than 3 weeks ago. It was at 55F for a few days, then upped 2 degrees a day until it hit ambient temps (about 68F). It's been sitting at that for about a week. I'll probably keg it soon (around or slightly after the 3 week mark), force carb it, and put it in the frig. The plan would be in another week start tasting it.

Thinking that sounds about right. I'm already ready for it, so I don't really want to it a few more weeks yet if I don't have to (meaning if it won't necessarily taste wrong).

 

[Franktalk]

I use Saflager S-23 in my Negra clone, and it's the same recipe that FloppyKnockers posted above. To my taste, it's spot on. It's "bright" and the malt and caramel come through the same as in the original. It floccs well and leaves a clear beer.

 

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Interesting. I'd be open to trying it on another batch someday. My concern with lagers is the yeasts, I don't have enough experience with them all and always concerned I'd make a beer I didn't like much. Historically I'd have said I hated lagers, but over time that's not totally true. I just hate some lagers. I've found that some beers, Pilsner Urquell for example, or some of the Italian beers, I tend to like a lot. Japanese beers like Kirin are pretty good, but start introducing whatever the mystery flavor is that I don't like. German Helles beers - I don't think I like any I've had. So I've certainly tried to stay towards that Urquell kind of yeast flavors, and away from anything ever described as good for a Helles.

If I haven't lost anyone yet, any ideas on what the heck I'm talking about, what that flavor is (is it yeast ester, maybe simple graininess but in a way I don't like)? Any yeast that you know tend to be on one side of that spectrum or the other?

 

[Ramjet]

You might try lallemand diamond lager yeast. I pressure fermented a Munich Dunkel with it and was very happy with it

 

[beersk]

Interesting. I'd be open to trying it on another batch someday. My concern with lagers is the yeasts, I don't have enough experience with them all and always concerned I'd make a beer I didn't like much. Historically I'd have said I hated lagers, but over time that's not totally true. I just hate some lagers. I've found that some beers, Pilsner Urquell for example, or some of the Italian beers, I tend to like a lot. Japanese beers like Kirin are pretty good, but start introducing whatever the mystery flavor is that I don't like. German Helles beers - I don't think I like any I've had. So I've certainly tried to stay towards that Urquell kind of yeast flavors, and away from anything ever described as good for a Helles.

If I haven't lost anyone yet, any ideas on what the heck I'm talking about, what that flavor is (is it yeast ester, maybe simple graininess but in a way I don't like)? Any yeast that you know tend to be on one side of that spectrum or the other?

Yeah, it sounds to me like you don't like the German style beers which are brewed with low o2 brewing methods and sauergut to acidify, which is the key flavor component to "that German lager" flavor you get from those beers you speak of. Totally get why a person wouldn't like that. My dad doesn't like it either; always calls them either skunky or calls it "That European lager flavor". I don't blame him for it. But he loves pilsners and helles biers, but typically American made ones. You know, the beers that are overly hopped and lack malt character.

Probably 34/70 has been mentioned as well. I have had ZERO luck with Diamond lager. But many folks have. It doesn't work for me.

 

[odie]

Isn't Negra Modelo essentially a Vienna lager? I would think any yeast for Vienna lager would do nicely.

yep...pretty much the only commercially brewed and distributed Vienna lager available. local prewpubs do viennas but I don't think there is any on-the-shelf selections anywhere except Negra Modelo.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

Isn't Negra Modelo essentially a Vienna lager? I would think any yeast for Vienna lager would do nicely.

Its DNA owes as much to Munich dunkels as anything - arguably Brooklyn has more Viennese DNA. But meh, styles don't really work when you get away from the classic regions.

Mexican lager seems to be heavily influenced by the Czech tradition, and they seem to use a lot of derivatives of the Urquell yeast, so if you're going dry I'd probably go for S-23 which is the closest you get to a dry Urquell yeast. But you're the brewer, you brew with what you want to.

 

[odie]

I use S-23 or 34/70 for my Vienna lagers

 

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S-23

S-23

Did my notes about the flavor of various pilsners a few posts up make sense? Where would you fit this yeast in that range?

There's a "lager flavor" I never quite figured out, but when it's there I really dislike them. If I can keep away from it without too much trial and error I'd be very grateful to everyone that helped.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

I've found that some beers, Pilsner Urquell for example, or some of the Italian beers, I tend to like a lot. Japanese beers like Kirin are pretty good, but start introducing whatever the mystery flavor is that I don't like. German Helles beers - I don't think I like any I've had. So I've certainly tried to stay towards that Urquell kind of yeast flavors, and away from anything ever described as good for a Helles.

Well Urquell is notorious for being rather atypical of pilsners in having a lot of diacetyl which is a yeast thing and gives it a noticeable butteriness.

Have you had German lagers in Germany? I wonder if you're tasting slight skunking or other stale flavours from old/abused beer? Is it different between bottles and cans of the same beer?

 

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Have you had German lagers in Germany?

I have, actually, and it's kind of what convinced me "OK, that's it, I guess I just hate lagers". These were in Switzerland actually, but were German beers from not too far over the border.

I recall liking Urquell a lot. I don't recall butteriness or diacetyl. Interesting. I more remember liking the hoppiness and the hops, and the relative lack of the mystery flavor which I dislike.

I haven't had them in a while, but I recall liking Becks and Heineken. And tend to dislike Saisons, they are ales of course but share something with the lagers I dislike.

I guess after all that I'm just hoping for a lager yeast or two that work for me. The yeasts least likely to give the flavors I wish I could better describe.

 

[Bramling Cross]

C-150 and S-189.

That's how you get the roast that has a hint of sweetness and the roundness before the yeast clamps down.

 

[Ramjet]

Dos Equis Amber is also a vienna lager I think Negra Modelo leans more towards a Munich Dunkel

 

[beersk]

I have, actually, and it's kind of what convinced me "OK, that's it, I guess I just hate lagers". These were in Switzerland actually, but were German beers from not too far over the border.

I recall liking Urquell a lot. I don't recall butteriness or diacetyl. Interesting. I more remember liking the hoppiness and the hops, and the relative lack of the mystery flavor which I dislike.

I haven't had them in a while, but I recall liking Becks and Heineken. And tend to dislike Saisons, they are ales of course but share something with the lagers I dislike.

I guess after all that I'm just hoping for a lager yeast or two that work for me. The yeasts least likely to give the flavors I wish I could better describe.

If you don't like lagers, why not just brew with a really clean ale yeast? Or you could use 34/70 at ale temps, or try the Lallemand Novalager yeast which ferments warm, or use Nottingham at 58-60F, or for liquid yeast, brew with Kolsch yeast like Wyeast 1007, 1010, 2565. You can get really clean beer without "that lager flavor". Honestly, I've brewed some fantastic beers with Wy1007 German ale.
I can understand that you don't like those German and Swiss beers. They all have that German lager flavor, the "It" flavor that low oxygen brewers are chasing. Totally get not liking that.
Do you like American brewed lagers? None that I've had have that flavor. None.

 

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It's not that I hate all lagers, just a bunch of them. I did some examples but I recall liking Urquell, basically like the Mexican beers, etc. (Enough to try and emulate Negra Modelo at home). I don't like Helles apparently. I have a spreadsheet, actually, but those were the ones that stood out. Haven't tried any American lagers in a while, save Coors light that my F-I-L loves, and I don't recall any bad tastes specifically (just a general lack of taste).

I'll be drinking my recent brew with the Bohemian soon, maybe today, will see how it goes. I need to make it to a store for a DIY 6-pack for a bottle of NM and can grab some others there too to compare.

 

[beersk]

It's not that I hate all lagers, just a bunch of them. I did some examples but I recall liking Urquell, basically like the Mexican beers, etc. (Enough to try and emulate Negra Modelo at home). I don't like Helles apparently. I have a spreadsheet, actually, but those were the ones that stood out. Haven't tried any American lagers in a while, save Coors light that my F-I-L loves, and I don't recall any bad tastes specifically (just a general lack of taste).

I'll be drinking my recent brew with the Bohemian soon, maybe today, will see how it goes. I need to make it to a store for a DIY 6-pack for a bottle of NM and can grab some others there too to compare.

Well, I was talking more about American craft brewed lagers rather than BMC beers. So for you, look for anything brewed by Summit for local. I love Summit's beers. Or you could try Firestone Walker Pivo Pils. If you don't like those, then you probably just don't like lagers in general. And there's not a thing wrong with that. You can still brew those styles but with a clean ale yeast.

 

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American / Locally, Grain Belt Nordeast is fantastic, has none of my mystery flavor. I haven't had their normal beer in a long time though. Sam Adams Boston Lager works for me.

New Glarus 2 Women I didn't like, I don't recall Spotted Cow specifically. Pryes Pragmatic is awful for me, billed as a Czech / Bohemian pilsner. Earth Rider Precious Material (a Helles) was awful for me. Surly Hell also not a good one.

Generically speaking, Oktoberfests and Marzens are iffy for me, they tend to have the "thing" going on more often than not. There's a chance it's a grain driven parameter I don't like and I confuse it with the yeast's contribution.

I'll have to do a DIY 6-pck or two soon.

 

[beersk]

American / Locally, Grain Belt Nordeast is fantastic, has none of my mystery flavor. I haven't had their normal beer in a long time though. Sam Adams Boston Lager works for me.

New Glarus 2 Women I didn't like, I don't recall Spotted Cow specifically. Pryes Pragmatic is awful for me, billed as a Czech / Bohemian pilsner. Earth Rider Precious Material (a Helles) was awful for me. Surly Hell also not a good one.

Generically speaking, Oktoberfests and Marzens are iffy for me, they tend to have the "thing" going on more often than not. There's a chance it's a grain driven parameter I don't like and I confuse it with the yeast's contribution.

I'll have to do a DIY 6-pck or two soon.

Agree on Surly Hell. It's an awful beer. I'm not even sure it's a lager. But that beer sums up American made pilsners for me. Over hopped and under malted.

It really sounds to me like your palate just doesn't want lagers especially if you don't like New Glarus. They make some of the best lagers I've had from any American brewery.

Dude, don't sweat it. Seek out some Czech pils, as that seems to be what you're favoring. Try the Summit Twins Pils. And in brewing your own, just use a nice clean ale yeast. Totally recommend Wyeast 1007. Brewing is fun and great but when you make something you don't like, it's a total bummer and it's not worth risking 5 gallons because you took a gamble on yeast you most likely won't care for.

 

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I wanted to follow up on this. A month or so after brewing, first sips, I didn't like the yeast choice at all (Bohemian). It had that flavor that I didn't like (tried describing it above, not all lagers have it but when I taste it it's only in lagers). I don't think it fit the style at all.

Now that it's been maybe another month, that flavor has greatly diminished, and the beer is pretty enjoyable. So I will of course finish it, but wont' be using it again. I bet it's great in other beers and for the taste buds of other people, but it does not at all go well in a Mexican inspired beer, not to my palate anyhow.

Next time I brew this recipe it'll be with a "Mexican" yeast, and if that yeast isn't available I'll make a different beer altogether.

 

[dmtaylor]

I wonder whether you might have been happier with the 2278 yeast.