Stuck saison blues

[rangerdanger]

Long story short. On 1/25 I brewed a saison and used wyeast 3724 Belgian saison. Pitched at 68f and had no activity for a few days. Slow fermentation and lead to becoming stuck at 1.042 after 10 days, raised carboy temp to 85 and it continue down to 1.035, and now is seeming like it's stuck again. So I pitched a pack of cuvée wine yeast to help things along , and I'm not seeing much activity after 3 days... Would pitching this yeast at 85 messed this up? What should expect?

 

[Dogue]

I haven't used that yeast myself, but if you're concerned now about finishing out the fermentation I'd recommend something like Belle Saison; it is highly attenuative and pretty fast in my experience.

 

[rangerdanger]

I wasn't sure if I could mix different ale yeast strains. So I went with the safe route , lbs recommended the wine yeast, but the flip side i rarely use dry yeasts. So my experience is a little light.

 

[Gus_13]

Long story short. On 1/25 I brewed a saison and used wyeast 3724 Belgian saison. Pitched at 68f and had no activity for a few days. Slow fermentation and lead to becoming stuck at 1.042 after 10 days, raised carboy temp to 85 and it continue down to 1.035, and now is seeming like it's stuck again. So I pitched a pack of cuvée wine yeast to help things along , and I'm not seeing much activity after 3 days... Would pitching this yeast at 85 messed this up? What should expect?

Personally I wouldn't pitch any wine yeast in my beer, especially a Saison, to finish it. I'm not very familiar with that process. I'm sure some folks do it.

But, at 85F you could see it take a while to finish out with 3724. I have never run into the stall problems people have with that yeast. But I typically pitch it with another yeast or Brett as well. When brewing clean with one strain, I pitch 3724 at 68F and let it free rise for 3-4 days to around 72-74 then I increase the temps by 2F each day until I'm up around 90F. Sometimes a smidge hotter. This has always yielded bone dry beers for me.

Don't worry about it being 10 days. It could take much longer if you are unable to ramp temps much higher.

 

[wardens355]

I would leave it until you hit 1 month before doing anything else.

 

[philosofool]

Just dropping dry yeast is probably not the best solution. Yeast aren't going to take off and act like healthy yeast when pitched into a half fermented beer: high alcohol, low nutrients, no oxygen, etc. When re-pitching, it's best to add yeast that are actively fermenting a beer, not sedentary yeast.

Just wait and see what happens. If it doesn't fire up in a week or so, make a small starter (800 mL) and add some champagne yeast or american ale yeast, let it go for about 8 hours, until it starts to smell like beer and has a krausen, then pitch.

 

[youreanimpulse]

Nothing wrong with blending ale yeast, in fact in Farmhouse Ales the brewer at Dupont is quoted saying the yeast in their saison is a blend of 4 ale strains. I wouldn't use wine yeast, it can't ferment longer chain sugars and some strains kill other sacc. Rehydrated Belle Saison or an active starter of WY3711 would be my choices. Or just wait the month that yeast often takes by itself. It's worth it.

 

[sweetcell]

3724 (Dupont strain) almost always gets stuck in the 1.030's. there are a ton of threads about it, the mother of them all is https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f163/wyeast-3724-belgian-saison-they-were-right-131071/

how warm are you fermenting? dupont needs heat. you need to keep it in the high 80's/90's to get it to ferment completely.

3724 will finish out, over many weeks, if you keep it at that temp. otherwise use a secondary yeast (3711 is a good choice). get the secondary yeast going in a starter and pitch at high krausen.

 

[JaimeTheLimey]

3724 is notorious for stalling. Even Wyeast recommends finishing out at a minimum of 90*

 

[govner1]

Long story short. On 1/25 I brewed a saison and used wyeast 3724 Belgian saison. Pitched at 68f and had no activity for a few days. Slow fermentation and lead to becoming stuck at 1.042 after 10 days, raised carboy temp to 85 and it continue down to 1.035, and now is seeming like it's stuck again. So I pitched a pack of cuvée wine yeast to help things along , and I'm not seeing much activity after 3 days... Would pitching this yeast at 85 messed this up? What should expect?

Reconstitute a pkg of T-58 and add a couple of Tbsp of OJ before pitching. Keep the temp in the upper 70's to mid 80's

 

[thekraken]

I just happened to listen to Jamil's podcast episode on saisons today: http://www.thebrewingnetwork.com/shows/The-Jamil-Show/Saison-The-Jamil-Show-09-10-07

You should give it a listen, they talk a lot about slow and stalled saison fermentation. They mention that if you are going to pitch a second yeast after fermentation has started that the second yeast will tend to just drop to the bottom and not do much, you need to make sure it's awake and active before you pitch it.

 

[Gus_13]

I just happened to listen to Jamil's podcast episode on saisons today: http://www.thebrewingnetwork.com/shows/The-Jamil-Show/Saison-The-Jamil-Show-09-10-07

You should give it a listen, they talk a lot about slow and stalled saison fermentation. They mention that if you are going to pitch a second yeast after fermentation has started that the second yeast will tend to just drop to the bottom and not do much, you need to make sure it's awake and active before you pitch it.

Oh man I re-listened to that podcast not long ago. They were so out there on their idea of a Saison to me. It's like they didn't want a Saison to be a Saison at all.

But there is good info hidden in there.

 

[yeastylad]

I had similar issues with this yeast:

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f163/3724-fusel-alcohol-dilemma-487773/

It didn't behave well, but in time it finished eventually, and it developed well in bottles over time. I still have a few bombers I'm keeping in the fridge just to see if prolonged aging rounds it out even more. That yeast is wonderfully complex, and wonderfully frustrating.

 

[thekraken]

Oh man I re-listened to that podcast not long ago. They were so out there on their idea of a Saison to me. It's like they didn't want a Saison to be a Saison at all.

But there is good info hidden in there.

I feel like they spent more time discussing saison yeast and fermentation than anything else so it should mostly be relevant information for OP. (Given that nothing is out dated, I just realized that the podcast is from '07)

I haven't brewed a saison yet, I'm doing some research, hence why I happened to just listen to it. So what about their idea seems off?

 

[Gus_13]

I feel like they spent more time discussing saison yeast and fermentation than anything else so it should mostly be relevant information for OP. (Given that nothing is out dated, I just realized that the podcast is from '07)

I haven't brewed a saison yet, I'm doing some research, hence why I happened to just listen to it. So what about their idea seems off?

Mostly the fact that they rule out that it can be funky, tart or anything like that. When I listened they basically wanted a Saison to only have yeast spice with maybe a little citrus and nothing else in it. No hop bitterness, fruitiness or anything like that. They also claimed one of the best example of the styles to be too weird to be included. I'm referring to Fantome. Plus their examples on that show could have been much better. I remember one of them describing a flavor as cocaine?

For your research I'd hit Farmhouse Ales pretty hard if you can. So much information in there. The podcast is definitely useful to listen to. Just so much has changed since 07 on what is acceptable in Saisons it seems.


Edit: I forgot about the last part where they go over yeast questions. That was very good.

 

[thekraken]

Mostly the fact that they rule out that it can be funky, tart or anything like that. When I listened they basically wanted a Saison to only have yeast spice with maybe a little citrus and nothing else in it. No hop bitterness, fruitiness or anything like that. They also claimed one of the best example of the styles to be too weird to be included. I'm referring to Fantome. Plus their examples on that show could have been much better. I remember one of them describing a flavor as cocaine?

For your research I'd hit Farmhouse Ales pretty hard if you can. So much information in there. The podcast is definitely useful to listen to. Just so much has changed since 07 on what is acceptable in Saisons it seems.


Edit: I forgot about the last part where they go over yeast questions. That was very good.

Got it, good to know.

Regarding the cocaine, I think they were having a side discussion about a energy drink that actually named cocaine, I don't remember exactly how it came into the conversation but I don't think it had anything to do with the flavors of a saison... they tend to sidetrack sometimes.

 

[Gus_13]

Got it, good to know.

Regarding the cocaine, I think they were having a side discussion about a energy drink that actually named cocaine, I don't remember exactly how it came into the conversation but I don't think it had anything to do with the flavors of a saison... they tend to sidetrack sometimes.

Haha yeah they do!

 

[thekraken]

Mostly the fact that they rule out that it can be funky, tart or anything like that. When I listened they basically wanted a Saison to only have yeast spice with maybe a little citrus and nothing else in it. No hop bitterness, fruitiness or anything like that. They also claimed one of the best example of the styles to be too weird to be included. I'm referring to Fantome. Plus their examples on that show could have been much better. I remember one of them describing a flavor as cocaine?

For your research I'd hit Farmhouse Ales pretty hard if you can. So much information in there. The podcast is definitely useful to listen to. Just so much has changed since 07 on what is acceptable in Saisons it seems.


Edit: I forgot about the last part where they go over yeast questions. That was very good.

Okay, I'm listening to a DIFFERENT episode of jamils show right now, this must be the episode you were talking about. This dude was trying to describe a commercial saison brew as cocainy, lol. Strange how cocaine gets brought up in saison episodes 7 years apart. Anyway, now I understand what you mean about them griping about the style.

 

[Gus_13]

Okay, I'm listening to a DIFFERENT episode of jamils show right now, this must be the episode you were talking about. This dude was trying to describe a commercial saison brew as cocainy, lol. Strange how cocaine gets brought up in saison episodes 7 years apart. Anyway, now I understand what you mean about them griping about the style.

Ha ha that is crazy about the cocaine. I'm no expert on the powder but I definitely wouldn't describe Fantomê as cocainy ha ha. It can be weird for sure!

 

[pdxal]

Reconstitute a pkg of T-58 and add a couple of Tbsp of OJ before pitching. Keep the temp in the upper 70's to mid 80's

Where did you get the OJ bit from? Why OJ?

 

[govner1]

It came from a long time brewer & it works. I had a stalled 3724?saison @ 80°+. The sugar in the OJ seems to give the yeast a kick in the ass & it finishes in a hurry. Give it a try.

 

[Imperator85]

It came from a long time brewer & it works. I had a stalled 3724?saison @ 80°+. The sugar in the OJ seems to give the yeast a kick in the ass & it finishes in a hurry. Give it a try.

Seems likely the second strain is what is finishing the job. A couple tablespoons of orange juice would only have a few grams of sugar in it, maybe less.