Stop Putting Airlocks on Your Starters!

[truckmann]

Good info here. I think I will keep using my airlock and just forget to put the liquid in it. Only because it's easier to do on my fermentation vessel than foil since I'm not using a carboy.

I have been using foil on my starters since I started doing starters.

 

[Jolly McStanson]

Stupid question. How come if you wrap cooked meat in foil and keep it on the counter, it still goes bad / bacteria?

 

[truckmann]

Unless your in a very sterile environment I'm sure the steak ends up getting some wild bacteria on the surface after it's cooked before it's put in the foil. Also the foil may likely have some on it as well. Given a little time it grows and spoils the meat.

The difference with the beer during fermentation you have an active process that will fight off almost any trace amounts of bacteria or wild yeast that may and do get into your wort or starter for that matter. All the brewer really needs to be concerned with is keeping a large contamination of bacteria or wild yeast from taking hold before the good yeast takes hold.

 

[mosquitocontrol]

What if you have kitties that may jump on the counter while the starter is there? Let alone all their dust flying around? Airlock to be safe? or am I just listening to my noobie "knowledge" I assumeed to be true

 

[PseudoChef]

This is not a "to be safe" endeavor. If you are making a starter, it is to replicate yeast. The best way to replicated the cells is to provide oxygen and put it on a stir plate. It you put an airlock on it, then you are hindering the former. Put it somewhere your cat can't get to it.

 

[conpewter]

Co2 is not that much heavier than air. If you have a bucket that blocks any drafts or movement of the air it will form a layer, if you have a moving liquid it is going to continuously mix with the air above it and not form a layer.

 

[RonRock]

Do you sanitize the foil? Foil on both Starter and Primary? I'd like to see a vote, just out of curiosity how the majority goes.

I'm leaning toward foil on both after reading this post.

 

[PseudoChef]

Yes, I sanitize the foil.

 

[flyangler18]

NOT sanitizing the foil is just beggin' for infection.

The foil is just another barrier from dust-ridin' bugs, same as a carboy cap or rubber stopper fitted with an airlock.

 

[RonRock]

I'm surprised in that response. When I was learning about doing Starters I read that Foil is considered sanitized as is. Sanitizing not necessary.

Glad I asked.

 

[enderwig]

You know, if everyone switches to the foil on the primary method, there will be a whole slew of new threads titled: "I haven't seen any activity in my foil since yesterday, is fermentation over?"
And another thing, what will noobs have to stare at on their first batch, watching foil do nothing at all, is quite boring

/sarcasm

 

[dontman]

Maybe they won't worry at all anymore because they won't expect to see bubbles.

Oh no! If there are no more noobie "I'm Worried" posts then activity on this site will dry up to next to nothing.

Fly could have single-handedly brought down HBT by starting this thread!

Or am I worrying needlessly. I guess we'll still have the drunken ramblings section.

 

[flyangler18]

I'm surprised in that response. When I was learning about doing Starters I read that Foil is considered sanitized as is. Sanitizing not necessary.

Glad I asked.

Well, think about it, you're pulling a piece of foil off a roll in your kitchen. You touch it with your bare hands, maybe scratching your nose along the way. You've got the overhead fan going, blowing bits of skin cells and dust laden with wild yeast and bacteria all over the place. A quick spray of StarSan and the problem is solved.

 

[fratermus]

You know, if everyone switches to the foil on the primary method...

Honest question for those that advocate foil on starters and foil on primary: why would foil allow oxygen exchange in a starter when you want oxygen, and not allow oxygen exhange in a carboy when you do not want oxygen exhange? Are we thinking that the increased volume of C02 production during fermentation makes the difference?




[thinking out loud follows]

I am agnostic about the foil v. airlock issue.

I'll be more convinced when I see experiments that show that foil actually allows significant gas exchange, and the metrics that show how much pressure an airlock provides and to what degree that pressure affects yeast function. I want to see numbers and predictable, repeatable results.

I go back and forth using foil and airlocks on top of stirplated starters and I have noticed no pattern in the results.

BN: I sterilize my foil in the pressure cooker on the flasks, and I bought a glass airlock so I could can that too. So the foil v. airlock decision for me so far has been a product of whether or not I remember to put the glass airlock in the canner with the other gear. It's fragile so I put it away safely and do not always remember to get it back out.

 

[llazy_llama]

Check out this thread to get your rubber stopper, it worked for me.

You sir, are awesome. Thanks for pointing that out.

 

[RonRock]

Well, think about it, you're pulling a piece of foil off a roll in your kitchen. You touch it with your bare hands, maybe scratching your nose along the way. You've got the overhead fan going, blowing bits of skin cells and dust laden with wild yeast and bacteria all over the place. A quick spray of StarSan and the problem is solved.

Thank You, I have thought about it. That is why I asked. As I said, in my studying up on doing starters I DID read that foil was sanitized (well enough) for our purpose's in homebrewing. I did not make that up. But also have my doubts.

I spent way to much time trying to find the reference yesterday and was unable to locate it. But none the less that is what I read. You can't believe everything you read on the Internet I guess.

Thanks

 

[flyangler18]

Honest question for those that advocate foil on starters and foil on primary: why would foil allow oxygen exchange in a starter when you want oxygen, and not allow oxygen exhange in a carboy when you do not want oxygen exhange? Are we thinking that the increased volume of C02 production during fermentation makes the difference?

The constant agitation via stirplate is what really encourages the oxygen exchange, in the same way that an aquarium bubbler does the same. It's a question of surface area. Further, positive pressure created during fermentation eliminates any risk, in my mind, of oxidation.

 

[llazy_llama]

Just heard PseudoChef asking the White Labs guys about foil on TBN's Podcast. You're practically famous now!

 

[remilard]

Thank You, I have thought about it. That is why I asked. As I said, in my studying up on doing starters I DID read that foil was sanitized (well enough) for our purpose's in homebrewing. I did not make that up. But also have my doubts.

I spent way to much time trying to find the reference yesterday and was unable to locate it. But none the less that is what I read. You can't believe everything you read on the Internet I guess.

Thanks

I've read that too and I do think the foil on the roll is probably sanitary but nothing that has been exposed in your kitchen (where most of us keep foil) can be considered sanitary. The kitchen is a microbiological nightmare, particularly lactobacillus which is beer spoiling.

I cringe every time I see a photo of someone bottling from an open bucket in the kitchen, usually accompanied by a question of whether to sanitize the bottle caps or rinse the bottles with water.

Missing the forest for the trees.

 

[Superman3278]

So far this has been intersting to say the least. Keep the info exchange going, and hopefully we can get past preferance to a "new standard" way of home brewing. I am always for the ability to achieve maximum efficiancy "repeatable" from begining to end. It is just the culinary regement speaking but it is worth it if the results are predictable. Good work getting the nurons a work out, every now and then we need to check ourselves from the bottom of a pint glass and up.

 

[Picobrew]

So I can see doing foil on the starter - sounds much easier than the pain I go through to get a rubber stopper to stick in my growler. But, for primaries, I always have to do blowoff, so I will at least need to do that, and then I switch to airlock, but I guess I could switch to foil then.

What about secondary? Why not foil then? Because of the length of time and lack of CO2 output?

I'm planning on doing secondary in corny kegs, so I guess I can just periodically pressure release them and never use airlocks! Will that pressure in the secondary cause the same CO2 backpressure that the foil on primary is trying to avoid in the first place? Seems like if that effect continues in the secondary, it would slow it down.

 

[olllllo]

#1 on my list
http://blogs.homebrewtalk.com/olllllo/Full_Disclosure_and_Endorsements/

...here are my Brewing Endorsements.

Now you know where I am coming from:
olllllo...

1. uses foil to cover his starters;

Foiling up Coach!

 

[MikeFlynn74]

anyone fermented in a neg pressure vehicle yet?

 

[z987k]

Honest question for those that advocate foil on starters and foil on primary: why would foil allow oxygen exchange in a starter when you want oxygen, and not allow oxygen exhange in a carboy when you do not want oxygen exhange? Are we thinking that the increased volume of C02 production during fermentation makes the difference?




[thinking out loud follows]

I am agnostic about the foil v. airlock issue.

I'll be more convinced when I see experiments that show that foil actually allows significant gas exchange, and the metrics that show how much pressure an airlock provides and to what degree that pressure affects yeast function. I want to see numbers and predictable, repeatable results.

I go back and forth using foil and airlocks on top of stirplated starters and I have noticed no pattern in the results.

As to the starter... look at the graph posted above... I've seen it before and it's been repeated in many texts. Stirplate + foil(or something to allow some air exchange) is best to get the cell count up.

As far as on the primary goes... it doesn't matter. For the pressure thing, you have two things here. 1 is the pressure is too small to really have an effect. 2nd, pressurized fermentation does retard yeast growth, however it also reduced the amount of higher alcohols produced.(at the expense of damaging yeast cells) The protocol I'm pulling from(Miedaner (1978)) used a positive pressure of roughly 26psi. And you are not touching that with an airlock... or the vessel you are fermenting in.

 

[Tonedef131]

And you are not touching that with an airlock... or the vessel you are fermenting in.

That is kind of what I am thinking, you guys are over thinking this. Not using an airlock on a starter has many benefits of air exchange, but I am not convinced that foil on the primary has any significant perks. First of all, how much pressure can an airlock really hold in? Second, the beer spends a lot more time in the primary than the starter and you run chances of fruit flies and that working their way in.

There was also talk of letting the carboy sit in a bucket and overflow...just leaving it to sit in it's own filth. This thread went from a very important point and then got taken to just plain unsanitary laziness.

 

[flyangler18]

That is kind of what I am thinking, you guys are over thinking this. Not using an airlock on a starter has many benefits of air exchange, but I am not convinced that foil on the primary has any significant perks. First of all, how much pressure can an airlock really hold in? Second, the beer spends a lot more time in the primary than the starter and you run chances of fruit flies and that working their way in.

I'm only speculating here, but I suppose that at the microscopic level, even the pressure held back by an airlock could have deleterious effects on the yeast. Think how much longer it takes to bottle condition at 68° compared to 70°.

There was also talk of letting the carboy sit in a bucket and overflow...just leaving it to sit in it's own filth. This thread went from a very important point and then got taken to just plain unsanitary laziness.

How so? What you are describing is open fermentation, employed by many breweries the world over. I've done what you describe as 'plain unsanitary laziness' without a single infection. Once fermentation subsides and the krausen has fallen, I clean up the mess.

It's not lazy, it's about understanding where the genuine risks of infection are and not wringing your hands in fear about the rest.

 

[steelerguy]

I'm only speculating here, but I suppose that at the microscopic level, even the pressure held back by an airlock could have deleterious effects on the yeast. Think how much longer it takes to bottle condition at 68° compared to 70°.

The pressure of the beer sitting on top of the yeast cake is way more than the tiny bit of C02 pressure at the top of the fermentation vessel being held back by an ounce of vodka or water.

Did you mention temperature because of pV = nRT? In a bottle there is no exchange of gas, but even in the secondary with an airlock, C02 is dissolving and escaping from the solution in the airlock.

I am a proponent of using foil on a starter, I would think the spinning of the solution will cause a spinning of the air and will slowly bleed out C02 and take in a tiny bit of air.

In the primary it is not much more work to put on an airlock and it bubbling away is indicative of fermentation taking place.

 

[flyangler18]

The pressure of the beer sitting on top of the yeast cake is way more than the tiny bit of C02 pressure at the top of the fermentation vessel being held back by an ounce of vodka or water.

Good point. Like I said, I was only spit-balling ideas.

Did you mention temperature because of pV = nRT? In a bottle there is no exchange of gas, but even in the secondary with an airlock, C02 is dissolving and escaping from the solution in the airlock.

No, I used temperature as an example of how slight changes have large effects on the yeast in response to the statement about the pressure held back by an airlock.

Frankly, I have no reservations about using foil as an airlock. I don't pay attention to bubbles or any of that rot and break out an actual scientific instrument instead of observing a blurping airlock.

 

[PseudoChef]

As for an ounce of water/star-san/vodka/whathaveyou causing a significant back pressure on the fermentation, you're right - it's probably non-existant. However, we have all seen countless pictures and stories from those where the airlock clogged, etc - leading to enough pressure to blow a lid off a bucket. Prior to that blow-off, the CO2 has no where to escape except back into solution, further hindering the yeast activity. From my personal experience, those lids are ass-hard to take off manually, but having enough pressure to force it off? I chalk it up to simply a better be safe than sorry ordeal. I rarely get blow offs, so I personally don't worry about a blow off tube. Those that see constant blow-offs should alter their process accordingly.

Plus, I only have two airlocks and 5 fermenters. The airlocks have been sitting on my sours, so I don't have another option I always have foil around...but not airlocks

 

[flyangler18]

Plus, I only have two airlocks and 5 fermenters. The airlocks have been sitting on my sours, so I don't have another option I always have foil around...but not airlocks

And there you have it. Like just everything about homebrewing, it's about doing what works for you and your conditions.

And I'll repeat what I said earlier. I quit using the lids on those PITA buckets; a piece of sanitized Plexiglass cut to size is all you need. You can see in if you must, and CO2 can escape.