Stir/Shake/Harvest

[HoppyHaze]

Hey everyone, I am hoping to get into yeast harvesting and starters because its pretty pricey and im hoping to do some more smaller batches.

I currently have been doing a swirl when I walk by method in a growler. I do not have a flask/stir plate. I would like to start overbuilding my starter and harvesting 100b yeasties for future batches, this seems way better than washing to me, however it looks like using the shaken not stirred method isn't really designed for overbuilding and the amount of DME for building a step up starter with just shake agitation would negate the cost savings.

I guess I am basically asking for overbuilding starters and not using tons of DME is my only option a stir plate? If that's a yes what DIY tutorial/equipment worked best and what size flask (or diy container) do yall recommend.

Thanks for the assist

 

[Golddiggie]

Stirplates are the best option for making starters. Not only are they done faster (<24 hours in most cases) but you can make smaller starters to get the cell count. I've been known to do two, or three, step starters when the recipe needed more cells. Either from frozen yeast or older packages of yeast (months old).

Something else to think on. Using the stirplate means you [basically] get the starter going and walk away until it's done. I typically check on it sometime in the hours after I get it going (often either after lunch or dinner) and then several hours later. You learn what to look for to tell the starter is finished.

I'm using Proper starter cans (concentrate canned starter wort) these days because it makes the process easier. I get the needed cell count (or close enough) for the batches this way. When using yeast from a harvest, I'll pull a portion and do a 1L starter (on stirplate) a couple of days before brew day. It's finished within 24 hours, and then goes into the fridge for at least another 24 hours to settle. I decant most of the spent starter wort, leaving just enough to make a slurry. That goes into the yeast brink to get pushed into the conical.

Another item to keep in mind is when buying flasks. Get one that leaves 1L of head space for your starter size. I use my 2L flask for 1L starters. The 3L flask is used for up to 2L starters. I also use the 3L flask when doing more than one starter step for a batch. There's software/apps out there that will help you to figure that part out.

I can't imagine makin starters WITHOUT a stirplate and flask(s) at this point. Maybe, at some point, I'll get to use my 5L flasks.

 

[HoppyHaze]

Thank you, looks like i'm going shopping for a flask and stir plate!

 

[IslandLizard]

it looks like using the shaken not stirred method isn't really designed for overbuilding and the amount of DME for building a step up starter with just shake agitation would negate the cost savings.

Swirling on the countertop is "intermittent agitation," NOT the Shaken-not-Stirred method, which needs a whole different approach.
But S-n-S can be done by letting fresh air in, then shaking vigorously every 60' or so, creating as much foam as possible.
Do not use Fermcap-S with this method.

Yes, letting it ferment out mostly will not create optimal yeast growth. To entice optimal growth the starter needs to be fed oxygen continuously while driving off CO2. That way the yeast keeps replicating without going into fermentation mode.

 

[Golddiggie]

This is the stir plate I'm currently using. It replaced the Hanna I bought about a decade ago (that failed).
https://www.morebeer.com/products/compact-magnetic-stir-plate.htmlMoreBeer also has 2L and 3L flasks in stock. I get the foam stoppers from Northern Brewer since they are sized properly for the flasks. The ones MoreBeer sells are a bit too small. They barely stay in the openings, and can fall in far too easily. IME, you want ones that are large enough to have tension when inserted (you squeeze them to fit, they expand and won't move too easily).

BTW, the foam stoppers promote gas exchange without risking something going into the starter that you don't want. Like bugs.

 

[IslandLizard]

Thank you, looks like i'm going shopping for a flask and stir plate!

Alright!

FWIW, don't boil the starter wort in the flask.
Use a stainless kitchen pot on the stove instead, and when done, close with a well fitting lid. Chill in the sink or a plastic tub.

 

[Golddiggie]

Alright!

FWIW, don't boil the starter wort in the flask.
Use a stainless kitchen pot on the stove instead, and when done, close with a well fitting lid. Chill in the sink or a plastic tub.

Or use canned starter wort. No boiling needed. Plus, if you have a GAS stove, you could put the flask on the burner. Do NOT try that with any kind of electric stove.

 

[Dr_Jeff]

Do NOT try that with any kind of electric stove.

I learned that the hard way.

I do have a hotplate that works fine though.

 

[Nate R]

Thank you, looks like i'm going shopping for a flask and stir plate!

This just came out and looks to be a good deal:
https://www.morebeer.com/products/wort-whipper-super-compact-magnetic-stir-plate.html
OR: you could support a HBT sponsor!:
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/members/h-a_hardware.298721/
Search "H-A_Hardware" on amazon.

Money well spent!
And +1 to the canned wort. Pricey, but easy.

 

[IslandLizard]

OR: you could support a HBT sponsor!:
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/members/h-a_hardware.298721/Search "H-A_Hardware" on amazon.

Money well spent!

And since he's a sponsor here, you can always ask him for a promo code...

 

[HoppyHaze]

Thank you all, thanks for the link to the sponsor stir plate, that looks perfect for my needs. I appreciate all the advice on here, Im excited to add a new gadget and some more yeast possibilities

 

[mashpaddled]

What I do is maintain strains in a jar in the fridge so when I need new yeast I pour off some of the cake into a starter and build up what I need for a batch and then add wort/DME to the origin jar. Then I can grow fresh yeast for the batch but also replenish the original culture without any risk of infection from putting yeast back in from a fermentation vessel. It doesn't matter how quickly the origin jar regrows so I don't worry about injecting oxygen or air into that jar beyond an initial aggressive shake (with the lid on) and then leave the lid ajar until fermentation winds down. Then back in the fridge it goes.

 

[Ridenour64]

Alright!

FWIW, don't boil the starter wort in the flask.
Use a stainless kitchen pot on the stove instead, and when done, close with a well fitting lid. Chill in the sink or a plastic tub.

Why not boil in the flask?

 

[day_trippr]

Unnecessary risk of flask committing suicide leaving a spreading pool of wort in your spouse's kitchen.
Bad juju....

Cheers! (See the "Don't do that" thread )

 

[IslandLizard]

Why not boil in the flask?

It's glass, it can crack, making a terrible mess.
It won't chill very quickly.

 

[Ridenour64]

I have read of them cracking on electric stoves but I’ve been boiling mine on my gas stove without issue for a few years. Maybe one day I’ll report back of the mess I’ve made. But I’ll likely continue to boil in the flask only because it makes me sleep better knowing it’s sanitized.

it does take awfully long to cool even in an ice bath though I will say that.

 

[CascadesBrewer]

I don't have a stir plate, but I can see where in some cases it would be handy. I have been thinking of building one or two based on ideas from this video:

 

[IslandLizard]

I don't have a stir plate, but I can see where in some cases it would be handy. I have been thinking of building one or two based on ideas from this video:

Yes, they're easy to build if you're handy or know someone who is.

A computer fan, wall wart, and a PWM (Pulse Width Modulation) module (eBay, AliExpress) and some sort of frame, box or platform is all you need. The PWM helps dialing in the right speed while still transferring enough power to spin. There are plenty of alternatives and better options, of course.

 

[McMullan]

Try not to view it from a cost point of view. Fact is it can be done on the tightest budget. I make my own starter wort, which, although a lot cheaper for me than DME, it's actually better, imo. It looks and smells much nicer than DME and the yeast seem to grow better in fresh wort too. I just do a simple mini mash when I'm prepping dinner in the kitchen. (Obviously, it helps if you're an AG brewer and have base malt to hand, but otherwise a great way to get into AG.) I stopped using conical (Erlenmeyer) flasks years ago. There's really nothing special about them when it comes to culturing yeast. Continued use in microbiology has more to do with historical memes than anything else. They're often easily broken too and end up as expensive mistakes. I prefer Duran type lab bottles for culturing. They're much stronger and have screw caps too. Anyway, I think it's better to view managing your own yeast starters for the main benefit - being able to pitch the best possible yeast every time. You can't buy that. You have to prepare it yourself.

Harvesting and repitching within a few days (without needing a starter) is the most convenient way to pitch yeast at their best and cheapest - why breweries do it - but not necessarily an option for home brewers. I tend to binge brew and harvest/repitch for a few weeks or so. Here's a freshly harvested top-cropper (Yorkshire Square).

It's like 'Rambo' looking for a jungle. Repitched straight away or within a few days of harvesting it's something else. 'Rambo' on a mission.

 

[Ridenour64]

Try not to view it from a cost point of view. Fact is it can be done on the tightest budget. I make my own starter wort, which, although a lot cheaper for me than DME, it's actually better, imo. It looks and smells much nicer than DME and the yeast seem to grow better in fresh wort too. I just do a simple mini mash when I'm prepping dinner in the kitchen. (Obviously, it helps if you're an AG brewer and have base malt to hand, but otherwise a great way to get into AG.) I stopped using conical (Erlenmeyer) flasks years ago. There's really nothing special about them when it comes to culturing yeast. Continued use in microbiology has more to do with historical memes than anything else. They're often easily broken too and end up as expensive mistakes. I prefer Duran type lab bottles for culturing. They're much stronger and have screw caps too. Anyway, I think it's better to view managing your own yeast starters for the main benefit - being able to pitch the best possible yeast every time. You can't buy that. You have to prepare it yourself.

Harvesting and repitching within a few days (without needing a starter) is the most convenient way to pitch yeast at their best and cheapest - why breweries do it - but not necessarily an option for home brewers. I tend to binge brew and harvest/repitch for a few weeks or so. Here's a freshly harvested top-cropper (Yorkshire Square).

View attachment 744742

It's like 'Rambo' looking for a jungle. Repitched straight away or within a few days of harvesting it's something else. 'Rambo' on a mission.

Can you tell me more about your mini mash process?

 

[HoppyHaze]

Try not to view it from a cost point of view. Fact is it can be done on the tightest budget. I make my own starter wort, which, although a lot cheaper for me than DME, it's actually better, imo. It looks and smells much nicer than DME and the yeast seem to grow better in fresh wort too. I just do a simple mini mash when I'm prepping dinner in the kitchen. (Obviously, it helps if you're an AG brewer and have base malt to hand, but otherwise a great way to get into AG.) I stopped using conical (Erlenmeyer) flasks years ago. There's really nothing special about them when it comes to culturing yeast. Continued use in microbiology has more to do with historical memes than anything else. They're often easily broken too and end up as expensive mistakes. I prefer Duran type lab bottles for culturing. They're much stronger and have screw caps too. Anyway, I think it's better to view managing your own yeast starters for the main benefit - being able to pitch the best possible yeast every time. You can't buy that. You have to prepare it yourself.

Harvesting and repitching within a few days (without needing a starter) is the most convenient way to pitch yeast at their best and cheapest - why breweries do it - but not necessarily an option for home brewers. I tend to binge brew and harvest/repitch for a few weeks or so. Here's a freshly harvested top-cropper (Yorkshire Square).

View attachment 744742

It's like 'Rambo' looking for a jungle. Repitched straight away or within a few days of harvesting it's something else. 'Rambo' on a mission.

I would also love to hear the process. Those Duran bottles look amazing! Thanks for all the advice this is great!

 

[Broothru]

I can't imagine makin starters WITHOUT a stirplate and flask(s) at this point. Maybe, at some point, I'll get to use my 5L flasks.

Brew more lagers!

Seriously though, I use a 5L almost as much as a 1L. Sometimes I wonder if I'm actually making a starter, or just brewing a 1 gallon batch. Come to think about it, I guess I'm really doing BOTH.

 

[Golddiggie]

Brew more lagers!

Seriously though, I use a 5L almost as much as a 1L. Sometimes I wonder if I'm actually making a starter, or just brewing a 1 gallon batch. Come to think about it, I guess I'm really doing BOTH.

No desire to brew any lagers at this time.

IME, a 1L flask is too small. Especially since I never make a starter below 1L in size. Trying to make a 1L starter in a 1L flask is setting yourself up for a mess.

 

[Broothru]

About the only thing I use a 1L flask for is a viability starter from a previously frozen sample or boosting an out-of-date commercial yeast. 250ml of 1.020 SG wort, add 50 ml White Labs or thawed yeast sample, oxygenate, add a pinch of DAP and spin it at low speed for 24 hours to see if anybody wakes up. That's about it for the 1L flask.

If all goes well, decant whatever settled slurry there is into 1L of 1.020 SG starter wort in a 2L flask for 24 hours. Cold crash, decant, add 1L 1.040 SG wort into the same 2L flask, spin, decant, pitch. Don't know the cell count but it's gotta' be 1~2 B/ml at that point. Good to go for an ale.

For lagers I'll step it one more time with the decanted yeast into 2L of 1.040 SG wort in the 5L flask and spin it to high krausen. That will usually give me at least 300ml of dense slurry after cold crashing and decanting, so I'm guesstimating something between 200 billion and 400 billion cells of very viable yeast at that point.

The only reason I don't propagate lager yeast in a 3L flask is that I don't have one, and thought that, since size matters, the 5L one would look way cool in my brew area. I've since had a few propagations that were so vigorous that they would have spluged out the top of a 3L, so, mission success with that. Plus it does look way cool!

 

[McMullan]

Can you tell me more about your mini mash process?

I would also love to hear the process. Those Duran bottles look amazing! Thanks for all the advice this is great!

It's just the simplest mash ever, on a small scale. A 4L (1.2 gallon?) pot, small nylon mash bag and candy thermometer. Water and a little pale malt. A very cute little BIAB. As it happens I'm doing one this weekend, to prep some yeast for my Christmas ales. I'll take a few pics of the process over the weekend and populate the thread.

 

[Nate R]

It's just the simplest mash ever, on a small scale. A 4L (1.2 gallon?) pot, small nylon mash bag and candy thermometer. Water and a little pale malt. A very cute little BIAB. As it happens I'm doing one this weekend, to prep some yeast for my Christmas ales. I'll take a few pics of the process over the weekend and populate the thread.

Do you just dilute with distilled/ sanitized h20 to make your target gravity? Seems simple (and smart!).

 

[McMullan]

Do you just dilute with distilled/ sanitized h20 to make your target gravity? Seems simple (and smart!).

I use boiled tap water to dilute. My tap water isn't far off distilled water, 'anaemic' minerally speaking, so I do treat it to get a 'general' profile, ensuring there are enough calcium ions for efficient enzyme activity. If I plan to store it in the fridge for days (or freeze it for weeks) I just dilute with water from the tap and simmer it with the lid on (to minimise evaporation/keep it at 1.040) for 15-20 minutes then pour into hot oven-sterilised lab bottles. This produces super sanitised, if not sterile, wort suitable for storing. It's always handy to have some available. I'll do something similar with any spare wort on brew day - simmer it next morning then store it.

 

[McMullan]

I used 800g Maris Otter (Warminster Low Colour) for no particular reason, just that the sack was open. Some brewing salts (to get a 'general' profile) and 3.5L tap water. The nylon grain bag fits nicely into steamer that came with the 4L pot (Ikea, I think).

Mashed in:

With the lid just cracked, I get a fairly stable mash temperature on the lowest hob setting. Mashed at 62℃ for about 75 minutes. As it's starter wort, I want it very fermentable, hence to low mash temp. This might be partly why yeast seem to grow better in fresh wort vs DME? More nutrients too, I guess.

Boiled for about 45 minutes outside on the grill:

I add a pitch of yeast nutrient before topping up.

Topped back up using boiling water and gave it a good stir at flame out:

Lid on and being left ('no chill') until tomorrow morning.

Obviously, if required sooner it can be chilled.

 

[Ridenour64]

Is the bag you use a paint strainer from the hardware store?

 

[McMullan]

Is the bag you use a paint strainer from the hardware store?

Possibly the same kind of thing, I'm not sure. I can't remember exactly, but I got a couple off Ebay. Similar to this.