Still no banana in my wheats. Need to get radical.

[Tippsy-Turvy]

I've tried Jamil's "ferment cool" approach with the WLP300 and got minimal banana.

I've fermented at the high end of the recommended range (72F) - still faint.

I've tried over-pitching by 3x the recommended slurry and also barely noticeable.

So, I'm going to try the "treat your yeast like a *****" approach, ie no starter, no aeration and ferment in the 77-80F range.

Anyone tried being nasty to your wheat yeast and got good results? I do worry that by not aerating the wort the FG will finish high and be sweet, in spite of the high temperature.

 

[mirthfuldragon]

My first hefe was with Wyeast 3068 at 70°, straight pitch from the smack pack, and it was a banana bomb with no clove or spice at all. YMMV.

 

[Smellyglove]

Switch yeast to 3068, that's the simplest approach and will yield more banana than 300. You don't have to abuse it, the banana will be there. You are not the only one lacking banana from 300.

Fermenting cool throws off less esters. The reason Jamil said that's the thing to do was for the balance. Suppress esters so it comes into balance with the phenols. However, you don't have to primary ferment cool for balance, the balance is the sum of the overall procedure used, from mash to pour. I primary ferment mine at 22C, even 24C, and I'm getting a nice balance at the end and can tailor the balance after primary as well.

Besides, by overpitching you are actually pitching for less esters.

 

[couchsending]

underpith, ferment somewhat warm but not too hot

open fermentation will get you more banana as well.

overpitching and fermenting cool is exactly how you get no banana.

 

[g-star]

WY3068, acid rest at 112F, one decoction for conversion around 154F, then slight under-pitch (0.6ml cells/ml/*P) and ferment "open" around 68F for a great balance of clove and banana. My wheats regularly score 35 - 40 using this approach.

 

[Smellyglove]

WY3068, acid rest at 112F, one decoction for conversion around 154F, then slight under-pitch (0.6ml cells/ml/*P) and ferment "open" around 68F for a great balance of clove and banana. My wheats regularly score 35 - 40 using this approach.

That's what I've found out as well. Nice to see others have concluded the same. My calculation takes me to 0.57/ml/*P. I've gotten feedback and scoresheets telling me that I'm in the 37-41 area. But I do ferment with the lid on, and run a tight process post pitch and often use my own take on hermann-verfahren.

 

[ESBrewer]

https://braumagazin.de/article/brewing-bavarian-weissbier-all-you-ever-wanted-to-know/

 

[SoCal-Doug]

3068. No starter. Ferment at 70 to 75. You'll be looking for ice cream, toppings and whipped cream to add to it.

 

[g-star]

That's what I've found out as well. Nice to see others have concluded the same. My calculation takes me to 0.57/ml/*P. I've gotten feedback and scoresheets telling me that I'm in the 37-41 area. But I do ferment with the lid on, and run a tight process post pitch and often use my own take on hermann-verfahren.

Exactly. If you pitch only the smack pack as some suggest, you are almost certainly under-pitching by too much and will consequently stress the yeast too much and end up with a sulfur bomb

 

[thehaze]

When stressed, the Hefe yeast will produce more esters. This can be accomplished by fermenting at high temps. and underpitching. I would also use Wyeast 3068 yeast, as I have read less good things about the WL equivalent.

Fermenting cool will emphasize the clove phenols in the beer. The banana will still be present, but very much subdued.

 

[SanPancho]

ill spare the details, but required to use dry yeast. there arent many to choose from, but is there a preference?

working on a rye beer with hefe yeast to pair some clove with the spicy rye.

 

[thehaze]

Danstar Munich Classic.

I've seen a 100% Rye ale recipe on Youtube and the beer was not that spicy. It depends how much Rye malt you are going to use. 30% is a good place to start.

 

[Jayjay1976]

I've also struggled to get a reasonable level of banana esters in my three tries so far.

-The first batch I fermented with 3068 at 63 ala Jamil, it was very clean and tasty but no noticeable banana.
-The next batch I fermented with 3068 but this time at 77, unfortunately I tried a complicated step mash and ended up with a bit of scorching resulting in a very subtle off-flavor.
-The third batch I tried Bavarian Wheat 3638 in the high-70's, this time with a ferulic rest at 112, then ramped up to 158; I thought this would boost esters but instead it was spicy, and the break material that settled during the rest period causing more severe element scorching and a more annoying off-flavor. Oh yeah, and still not enough effing banana....

All have been drinkable, though the scorched taste is annoying and my patience is wearing thin. From now on, I'm only attempting single infusion mash to avoid scorching with so much wheat in the grain bill, then a warm fermentation with 3638 until I get my damned bananas.

 

[Tippsy-Turvy]

Great pointers, thanks everyone!

Can't recall where i read over-pitching also produces more esters but it clearly didn't work.

 

[thehaze]

Overpitching actually inhibits/limits the ester production and it can be used for brews, where you want a restrained ester/phenolic profile.

 

[FunkedOut]

this is a good read and guide:
https://braumagazin.de/article/brewing-bavarian-weissbier-all-you-ever-wanted-to-know/

 

[eRicphtgr]

I use Danstar Munich Classic before and the Banana + clove flavor stands out. Maybe you could try... I ferment at 68F

 

[Tippsy-Turvy]

Oh, I forgot to re-ask. What about the idea of no-aeration? I'm deducing from your comments that you're all aerating as usual.

 

[Miraculix]

this is a good read and guide:
https://braumagazin.de/article/brewing-bavarian-weissbier-all-you-ever-wanted-to-know/

This one answers actually all questions asked.

 

[Tippsy-Turvy]

In that case, I'd better read it! Thanks for that

 

[Miraculix]

In that case, I'd better read it! Thanks for that

Long but well worth it!

 

[marc1138]

I do a lot of hefe brews. For more banana I'll pitch a single pack of yeast (3068 or wl300, I prefer 3068 as it gives a cleaner flavor imo), pitch around 60 and let it rise the first few days to 68.

Lately with this method I've had too much banana. Even fermenting low, around 62 or 63, gets me a decent balance of esters and phenols.

 

[Smellyglove]

If you add glucose (cheating a bit, sort of), or mash for more glucose, you'll experience more esters as well.

 

[Wolfbayte]

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/...ve-banana-aroma-may-june-2010-zymurgy.174599/

 

[Smellyglove]

I've experienced it's not just the isoamyl acetate which is bumped with a Herrmann Verfahren. But all esters, most notably the ethyl acetate. During carbonation it can taste like nail polish. Which I've realized is quite normal for how I do it, after some conditioning the ehyl acetate is attenuated and the beers will have strong and nice esters.

 

[Andre3000]

Bit of a hijack, but can you guys comment on the flavor profile difference of 3068 vs 3056 under similar conditions?

 

[Beerswimmer]

A smack pack of 3068 with no starter, a coffee filter on the top of the fermentor for the first 48, and 72F is my method. After 4-5 days I do a short cold crash and package asap. The mash hasn't made too much of contribution to me. I do 50/50 red wheat and pale 2 row. 112, then 155 hasn't changed much if anything from a single 155. To me.