Still making bad beer after 30+ batches.

[TheMadKing]

Dear everyone, please read the thread before asking new questions. He's probably answered them at least twice.

Man what a monster thread. Haven't you fixed the problem yet?!?!?!

 

[paulshe]

I've had what probably is the same taste lately in some of my beers. Have not nailed down the culprit. Since restarting this hobby I probably have over 70 batches in the last 2 years or so. All was good until about 4 months ago when a slew of these had this taste. Threw out like 4 out of 6 batches one month. My first thought was first a problem with not rinsing my fermenters well when I switched from oxiclean to PBW. I think this may have contributed to this. But now I'm in a run where I've done about 12 beers and only 1 or 2 have this taste. I dont do any water treatment and have good fermentation temp control. My current guess is yeast viability and under pitch. But that has been mostly a constant so I'm not convinced. The last 3 batches. Two with a good SD yeast starter and one with a single pack of s-05. The s-05 seems to have a trace of the flavor. And it was slow to get going.

The thing I hate is rather than all my batches having this it seems random. Lately getting better. So my one thought is maybe stressed yeast somehow.

My suggestion is like others have mentioned. Do the hotside brew on someone else's gear and ferment in your gear. Then do the other way around. At least I'd try to get those two big variables figured out.

 

[mprowland]

Man what a monster thread. Haven't you fixed the problem yet?!?!?!

Sorry for the monster thread, definitely not my intention. Before I even started this thread I researched anything and everything that could possibly cause this. Again, I appreciate everyone's input! Even if your suggestions didn't correct my problem, I have no doubt that my beer will eventually be better for it. I've had a couple of people reach out and offer to taste the beer. Having someone accurately describe the off flavor will help me pinpoint the problem.

I may do 1-gallon batch of this recipe with my friends gear/water to rule everything out except my procedures. I may also try this recipe and try adding the specialty grains in the last 10 minutes of the mash. Process of elimination

 

[treacheroustexan]

Sorry for the monster thread, definitely not my intention. Before I even started this thread I researched anything and everything that could possibly cause this. Again, I appreciate everyone's input! Even if your suggestions didn't correct my problem, I have no doubt that my beer will eventually be better for it. I've had a couple of people reach out and offer to taste the beer. Having someone accurately describe the off flavor will help me pinpoint the problem.

I may do 1-gallon batch of this recipe with my friends gear/water to rule everything out except my procedures. I may also try this recipe and try adding the specialty grains in the last 10 minutes of the mash. Process of elimination

Feel free to send me a bottle. I'd gladly accept 😂

 

[dallasdb]

Do an extract batch.

 

[TheMadKing]

Do an extract batch.

Already suggested, accepted as a good suggestion, and planned on... RTFT (read the f thread)

 

[dallasdb]

Already suggested, accepted as a good suggestion, and planned on... RTFT (read the f thread)

I know... I made the suggestion already earlier in the thread.

Don't assume I didn't read compadre

Reminding the OP that extract would be a simpler way to diagnose the problem. If extract yields good results... all signs point to his mash being an issue.

EDIT:

The OP should change the name of the thread to Still making bad beer after 30+ pages into this thread

 

[ncbrewer]

OP: You have great perseverance - I salute you. And I'm not joking.

 

[modifier]

Haha, he says in the opening post that he is all-grain, not DME.

You just added to the epic nature of the thread with a totally off topic post.

Thank you for pointing me out so i can reinforce my question.

I was asking about starter wort, which OP prepares with DME as he stated on post #290.
Also i began following this thread about 20 pages ago so I might not remember every little detail discussed, but i sure do know he is all-grain. Peace.

 

[dallasdb]

OP: You have great perseverance - I salute you. And I'm not joking.

 

[mprowland]

You are correct. However, I change a thing or two ever time I brew. I troubleshoot for a living; divide and conquer. I've changed all of my equipment, water and grain. The only thing left is a procedural change.

 

[wishingiwasfishing]

You are correct. However, I change a thing or two ever time I brew. I troubleshoot for a living; divide and conquer. I've changed all of my equipment, water and grain. The only thing left is a procedural change.

You've changed your keggel? I thought you had plans to change it, but didn't know it occurred.

What did you end up getting?

Did you brew at a friends house, like you said you may?

Thanks

 

[mprowland]

You've changed your keggel? I thought you had plans to change it, but didn't know it occurred.

What did you end up getting?

Did you brew at a friends house, like you said you may?

Thanks

I'll have my new kettle tomorrow. I bought a 15-gallon Brewtech SS. The reviews seem great and it'll be a lot easier to handle and clean than my keggle. I haven't brewed at my friends yet. I thought I would do one last brew this coming Friday with the new kettle before I tried anything else. If this fails, I may just do an extract batch first with spring water to rule a few more things out.

 

[MidAtlanticBrew]

Love your persistance. It's quite possible you have (or had) multiple negatives working against you. Maybe oxidation in combination with other factors. Most often in problem solving, there is a smoking gun, and so the default problem solving approach is a one off fix. Occasional two or more factors conspire to make for a more complex issue. It's even more challening when there are co-factors where the presence of one amplifies or masks the other. I suspect that is the case here, so be careful not to let some of your other improvements slide once you have the last fix in place.

 

[skraeling]

I'll see if I can explain my process in a fairly brief manner: I start off by heating up roughly 4-gallons of mash water in a stainless pot. In the past I've used bottled water, now I use R.O. with salt additions using BruN water. I taste the water after the additions and it tastes as good as any. I heat the water up to 170-ish degrees and dump it into my 10-gallon mash tun with a false bottom. I leave the water in there until it cools to around 165 degrees. Once I get this temperature, I add the grain. I mix it all up for a few minutes and then read the temperature. I'm usually around 152(depending on recipe). Within the hour of mashing, I stir it up every 20 minutes and take a temp reading. I typically lose 2 degrees within the hour. I then vorlauf around 3-4 quarts until the cloudiness is gone. Once the initial volume has drained into my keggle, I then batch sparge by adding in another 5 gallons of 168 degree water, stir and let sit for ten minutes. I again vorlauf until clear. This leaves me with around 7-gallons of wort. I heat the wort up on a natural gas burner until the hot break. I back down the flame until I get a rolling boil. I add hops according to schedule. I typically boil for 60 minutes unless I'm making a really light beer in which I'll do 90 minutes. With 5 minutes left in the boil, I'll add my copper wort chiller into the wort. While I'm boiling/cooling the wort, I clean and sanitize everything. Everything in the post boil process is saturated in StarSan; bucket, lid, air lock, scissors, yeast package, hydrometer, graduated cylinder, and stainless mesh strainer. This is when I usually rehydrate my dry yeast. If I'm using liquid, I make a starter 36-48 hours in advance. I cool the wort to around the intended fermentation temp (66 degrees for the last batch). I drain the wort into a bucket through the stainless mesh strainer. This seems to aerate the wort fairly well. I then add the yeast and close it up and add StarSan to the airlock. I place the bucket in my basement which is currently 62 degrees ambient. I have a thermometer on top of the bucket for ambient temperature and a "stick on" lcd thermometer for approximate wort temperature. I also use an infrared thermometer to check the bucket temperature. The "stick on" thermometer and the infrared are always within 1 degree of each other. Currently this temperature is 4 degrees higher than ambient at 66 degrees. I check it once a day and make sure there are no swings in temperature. My basement is fairly consistent so I never expect any. After the fourth or fifth day, I'll bring the bucket up a level (I live in a quad level house) where the wort temperature raises to around 68 degrees. I then leave it as is for 4-5 weeks, I don't use a secondary. When it's time to keg, I completely disassemble the keg and clean and sanitize. I rack the beer into the keg avoiding any splashing. I take F.G. reading and it usually is spot on. Once the keg is full, I attach Co2 and then purge for 10-15 seconds. I place the keg into my fridge at 10 PSI and let it sit for a week. I've also force carbonated with the same results. With my last batch, the off-flavor was present going into the keg. That's it in a nut shell. I've also replaced buckets, airlocks, hoses, valves and many other things. The one thing I haven't done yet is add O2 to the wort. I've had great beer made by others without it so I don't know if it's completely necessary. See any glaring faults in my technique? Thanks for reading!

Your process is better than mine, but the results are not the same. This is puzzling.

Personally, Ive made one bad batch. Ive made bland and unspectacular batches, but I had one that I made that was in particular so awful I dumped the whole 5g of it. It was an extract oatmeal stout kit from midwest and one I had made before so I knew what it was supposed to taste like (and it is quite good).

Brew day went as normal, but I made one singular critical mistake. I pitched my yeast into my wort when it was way way way too hot thinking I had cooled it enough. Before someone tells me to RTFT, I know.. im sure its been covered I'm accounting my OWN bad batch experience here.

So I'm pretty sure it was way too hot when I pitched. I didn't get activity for 2 full days (I knew I was screwed, but let it ride). Finally after two days got a fermentation going. Racking to keg day came and tried a sample of it and SWEET TAP DANCING JESUS. What the hell is this crap?!! It was borderline undrinkable. I would describe the flavor as supremely astringent. I'm owing this to ridiculously stressed out yeast from the high pitch temp.

Kegging and letting it sit for a month couldn't bail this turd of a batch out. Dumped it after trying a few glasses.

It was quite the bruise to the ego to have a batch so bad I wouldn't even drink it let alone serve it to anyone. Let alone ****ting 30 something bucks down the drain + the time and effort.

Im sure you will get this figured out. Seriously your process seems spectacularly well managed.

 

[wishingiwasfishing]

Can't wait to hear how your beer goes after you get the new kettle.

Have fun!

 

[normonster]

Thank you for pointing me out so i can reinforce my question.

I was asking about starter wort, which OP prepares with DME as he stated on post #290.
Also i began following this thread about 20 pages ago so I might not remember every little detail discussed, but i sure do know he is all-grain. Peace.

Sorry, my bad.

 

[SnowRaven]

One note on this

I have a corney filled with Star San and just daisy chain them. Then I purge full of SS corney by a Pushout into corney #2. Then I fill by CO2 pressure transfer from Fermenter (Glass with a SS racking cane and orange bung)

Has solved most of my longer term issues of "Cardboard tastes"

Sorry to go off track, but I just do not understand the logic here. We are talking about an inch of space in a full keg. Turn on the CO2 and the O2 is pushed to the top given CO2 is heavier. With the pressure of the incoming CO2, it seems the O2 would be wisked out. In fact everything would be pushed out only to be replaced with the rush of the new CO2. How could anything remain?

Now if you are counting the O2 in solution it would take more time for it to come out of solution given the right pressure conditions. But I do not think that is the focus of tipping the relief valve.

 

[mprowland]

One note on this

I have a corney filled with Star San and just daisy chain them. Then I purge full of SS corney by a Pushout into corney #2. Then I fill by CO2 pressure transfer from Fermenter (Glass with a SS racking cane and orange bung)

Has solved most of my longer term issues of "Cardboard tastes"

I've thought about doing this; a closed transfer. I have Speidel fermenters so I'll have to adapt it somehow. The only issue I have is that I know many people who don't even purge their kegs before they add beer and they never have an issue.
I received my kettle a couple of days ago. I'm going to clean and passivate before I brew on Friday. Hopefully this helps.

 

[SnowRaven]

Having the fermenter under CO2 Pressure when you cold crash is more critical than 2" of head space in the corney keg

I've thought about doing this; a closed transfer. I have Speidel fermenters so I'll have to adapt it somehow. The only issue I have is that I know many people who don't even purge their kegs before they add beer and they never have an issue.
I received my kettle a couple of days ago. I'm going to clean and passivate before I brew on Friday. Hopefully this helps.

 

[berndawg84]

Dear everyone, please read the thread before asking new questions. He's probably answered them at least twice.

Man what a monster thread. Haven't you fixed the problem yet?!?!?!

Fair point, just a lot to read through. Has someone suggested sending in some sample brews to the Dr. Homebrew podcast on the brewing network? Those guys are pros and could potentially help you out. Or perhaps the brewer at a local brewery would be so kind to taste? You could also try to find a local place that has a certified beer cicerone. For a nice tip they may be willing to try it. They're the equivalent of sommeliers, about as good as you could get. Could help identify the issue. My bad if these have been suggested.

 

[wishingiwasfishing]

Having the fermenter under CO2 Pressure when you cold crash is more critical than 2" of head space in the corney keg

Interesting. I can agree that limiting overall exposure is a worthwhile goal...but I'm wondering why you say one is more critical than the other.

Thanks,
Dan



This is an odd thing with the original poster, because his methods appear to be sound and this doesn't seem like an oxidation issue that will show up...it sounds as it's there from the beginning. It would really help if we could taste exactly what he taste in his beer...perhaps we could all get a shipment of one bad beer so we could put a flavor to this discussion. It's difficult to say, but I have a feeling his new kettle will clear things up...perhaps not...but I'm really interested to hear his report after brewing his next batch.

Hope he gets this problem figured out!

 

[MidAtlanticBrew]

Two factors here.

If you had a CO2 blanket to start, chilling reduces the temperature and therefore pressure in the headspace creating a partial vacuum that draws air into the headspace unless you are completely sealed. Without a complete seal, it only gets worse since the soluability of gas increases in cold beer. As the beer draws gases into itself, the partial vacuum perpetuates, drawing more air in. You get alot of O2 exposure if your not sealed during crash, sort of a continuous supply of O2 over the crash, making it much worse then a bit in the corny

If you do happen to have a complete seal during the crash, when you break the seal during transfer, Air rushes into the headspace. If your quick and get it into the keg, then purge with CO2 your probably reasonably okay though I'm sure some with oxy-phobia would disagree.

I've taken to putting a very low pressure supply to my fermentor during crash, something like 1/2 psi. Over the course of a week it starts to carbonate slightly owing to the soluability of CO2 due to beer temperature but nothing to be concerned about and it probably helps scrub any incidental O2 during transfer.

Interesting. I can agree that limiting overall exposure is a worthwhile goal...but I'm wondering why you say one is more critical than the other.

 

[MidAtlanticBrew]

OP, it's really important to take part and clean the ball valve from your new SS Brew Tech kettle, It is likely to have grease in it. I've found such in almost every ball valve I've purchase. I'm told it's perceptable as an off flavor for the first brew or two if you fail to clean. I don't know for sure because I always clean mine.

 

[wishingiwasfishing]

Two factors here.

If you had a CO2 blanket to start, chilling reduces the temperature and therefore pressure in the headspace creating a partial vacuum that draws air into the headspace unless you are completely sealed. Without a complete seal, it only gets worse since the soluability of gas increases in cold beer. As the beer draws gases into itself, the partial vacuum perpetuates, drawing more air in. You get alot of O2 exposure if your not sealed during crash, sort of a continuous supply of O2 over the crash, making it much worse then a bit in the corny

If you do happen to have a complete seal during the crash, when you break the seal during transfer, Air rushes into the headspace. If your quick and get it into the keg, then purge with CO2 your probably reasonably okay though I'm sure some with oxy-phobia would disagree.

I've taken to putting a very low pressure supply to my fermentor during crash, something like 1/2 psi. Over the course of a week it starts to carbonate slightly owing to the soluability of CO2 due to beer temperature but nothing to be concerned about and it probably helps scrub any incidental O2 during transfer.

Thanks...I do get that. The other posted mentioned that the oxidation drawn in from cold crashing would be worse than the oxidation from 2" headspace in a corney keg on transfer. Not sure I agree with his police work there, I think they'd both be of importance to minimize as best you can.

Anyone know the volume of air drawn in when in cold crashing?

perhaps this discussion would be best off in it's own thread

 

[mprowland]

Thanks again for the input. Maybe that's where I went wrong on the last batch? When I cold crashed, I didn't remove or seal the airlock. This next batch I'll definitely do that. I bought some TSP to clean my new kettle. I'm also going to passivate it with a stiff batch of Starsan. I have a 2l starter going right now of WLP005. Hopefully tomorrow goes well! Thanks again!!!

 

[MidAtlanticBrew]

okay a quick calculation ... mind you, I've had a few ..... but first, as I mentioned above, open cold crashing is like have a conveyor belt delivering air into your fermenter. There is the initial air drawn in as the head spaces cools then as gas disolves into the beer, the partial vacuum in the headspace continues drawing in more air.

So open cold crashing is way worse, the soluability limit of 02 at 34 F is ~.07g per kg of beer. If you were to leave your beer at crash temp long enough to reach equalibrium, it's the equalivent of exposing your beer to a headspace of 1.25 gallons of atmospheric air. How long to reach equalibrium, that's a different calculation, but I'd bet your at least half way there in 3 to 5 days.

2 inches in a corny, might be what, 1/6 of air gallon, and of course in a corny, purging resolves even this much smaller amount.

Agreed, mimimize anywhere you can based on your setup

Thanks...I do get that. The other posted mentioned that the oxidation drawn in from cold crashing would be worse than the oxidation from 2" headspace in a corney keg on transfer. Not sure I agree with his police work there, I think they'd both be of importance to minimize as best you can.

Anyone know the volume of air drawn in when in cold crashing?

perhaps this discussion would be best off in it's own thread

 

[wishingiwasfishing]

Thanks mid Atlantic

 

[ViciousFishes]

OP, it's really important to take part and clean the ball valve from your new SS Brew Tech kettle, It is likely to have grease in it. I've found such in almost every ball valve I've purchase. I'm told it's perceptable as an off flavor for the first brew or two if you fail to clean. I don't know for sure because I always clean mine.

This is a great point. It's not easy cleaning a ball valve without disassembling. I circulate PBW through my MT, BK, plate chiller and pump before and after every brewday. I open/close the ball valves while recirculating to try and get them clean. Even so, see what was lurking in the coupler before my most recent brew day. Ended up having to do a complete tear down.

 

[tnsen]

Actually I do, I use it very liberally and saturate EVERYTHING with it. I use roughly 1/4 teaspoon per quart of water. I usually use the entire bottle on a brew day. I'll definitely try filling up a bucket next time.

ok...this caught my eye...1/4 tsp per qt??....isent starsan suppose to be 1oz to 5 gallons?.....wouldent the op be using waaaaayyyy too much starsan per water??

 

[chickypad]

ok...this caught my eye...1/4 tsp per qt??....isent starsan suppose to be 1oz to 5 gallons?.....wouldent the op be using waaaaayyyy too much starsan per water??

No I think it's about right, or just under. 1 oz is 6 tsp. 20 qts in 5 gal, or 0.3 tsp per qt. I just think it's easier to use mls (1oz = 30ml). I get a syringe and make a gallon at a time so that's 6 ml.

 

[LostArtBrewer]

mprowland, with the off flavor, would you characterize it as overly hoppy? Or more of an astringent flavor? or both? I have a few more thoughts but wanted to see if you can characterize it a bit further before I make any further suggestions

 

[ma_duece_brew]

If you have homebrewing friends, why not both brew a simple SMASH same brew day same brew time. Pick like 2 row and a hop you are both very familiar with, something clean and simple even one note. Swap fermenting buckets, ie you take his wort and he yours... If he finished beer is funky its your hot side, if yours is then its your cold side. Both of you can use this as a learning experience and go from there. Or you could have knowledgeable judge give you advice. You can poke around your process all day but until you get someone that knows what to look for and can describe this taste better you could be changing too much each time while never finding probably a very very simple fix.

 

[mprowland]

mprowland, with the off flavor, would you characterize it as overly hoppy? Or more of an astringent flavor? or both? I have a few more thoughts but wanted to see if you can characterize it a bit further before I make any further suggestions

I'm not quite sure how to characterizes the flavor, it's definitely not overly hoppy. I can only say that there is a metallic type and slightly bitter taste on the back end. I notice it more with browns, porters and stouts. I have a couple of bottles in the hands of people who know how to judge beer. I'm awaiting their feedback.

 

[wishingiwasfishing]

Did you brew that beer with the new kettle yet?

 

[mprowland]

Did you brew that beer with the new kettle yet?

I did. I made a "Fresh Squeezed" clone just over 2 weeks ago, which is dry-hopping now. I also made a raspberry wheat this past weekend which is now fermenting. I definitely like it better; easier to clean, lighter, and the "hot break" is easier to manage. I'm guessing the wider opening allows more cool air to contact the "break". I've noticed when wiping down the new kettle, I've never once had the gray residue that I had in the keggle. I'll know soon if it helps.

 

[wishingiwasfishing]

I think you have more than a few people pulling for you do beat the problem. I still think the keggle, with residue, sounds like the culprit. If not...perhaps a fitting or so.

During a batch my buddy decided to put a carbonating stone on the pressure side inside his corney keg. The fitting wasn't completely SS and we tasted the problem before locating the problem. It just takes one small "thing"

 

[MidAtlanticBrew]

keep us posted, we're excite to hear your results

 

[JLeuck64]

I think you have more than a few people pulling for you do beat the problem. I still think the keggle, with residue, sounds like the culprit. If not...perhaps a fitting or so.

During a batch my buddy decided to put a carbonating stone on the pressure side inside his corney keg. The fitting wasn't completely SS and we tasted the problem before locating the problem. It just takes one small "thing"

I'll second that! I had a few batches that went sour recently, that hasn't happened in quite a while but I was thinking of this thread with every sip of those skunky beers!

 

[mprowland]

I finally received some feedback from someone who can legitimately critique beer. There were two off-flavors they could pick up; 1. bitterness on the back-end 2. "a little cardboard" profile.
They questioned the alpha acid in my bittering hop and my water source; the water seemed hard. In this particular recipe, I used 1oz. of Northern Brewer and .5oz. of Cascade at 60 min. As far as water, I'm stumped. I've made this recipe 4 times now; 2 with purchased spring water and 2 with "built" water using Bru"N water spreadsheet. The water always tasted great, yet the results have been the same all 4 times.

The cardboard profile leads me to believe there is oxidation of some sorts. I'm somewhat careful with hot-side aeration and very careful with cold-side aeration. I currently drain my wort from a Speidel fermenter into a purged keg. I purge before and after. With my next batch, I'm going to "push" the beer into the keg. I'm also going to fill the entire keg up with sanitized water and "push" it all out insuring the entire keg is filled with CO2. Hopefully this helps. I'm skeptical though, I know many who don't take these precautions and make excellent beer. Again, we'll see...