Still making bad beer after 30+ batches.

[thekraken]

I've spent the last hour and 32 minutes waiting in the doctors office binge reading this thread. I gotta say it's been an epic thriller full of twists and turns, highs and lows. Post #215 had me on the edge of my seat with excitement, then post #222 made my eyes water like a school girl. The enigma that plagues OP's brewery is both titillating and infuriating.

All in all I give this first installment of "Still making bad beer after 30+ batches" 4.5 out of 5 stars. What will happen next? Will it be a happy ending with delicious flowing beer fountains? Or will it be a grim G.R.R. Martineque ending full of bittersweet carnage with a side of disappointment? I for one can't wait to find out!

 

[mprowland]

I haven't read all the posts, so I hope i'm not repeating this. Are you using a gram scale and is it on the gram setting? Could your water salt containers be miss labeled, these would make big differences.

I'm 99% sure I'm using the gram scale. I'll double check when I get home. I'll check anything at this point. Unless the salt containers were mislabeled when I purchased them, I can only assume they're correct.

 

[soccerdad]

tough crowd

 

[McKnuckle]

I can't locate a post where you state the actual amounts of which salts you've added to a particular grain bill and volume of water. Can you give an example from one of your dark beers? Maybe you are adding way too much of something due to misinterpreting Bru'n Water.

There was also a recent update to Bru'n's pH algorithm in terms of roasted malts; apparently it was estimating too high for many people. My gut feeling is that the water build is your culprit. Dry, sulfur, tang, back-end - all mineral issues. I'll bet you're overloading the water and have a lower than optimal pH.

I saw that another person asked a similar question about the exact salt additions halfway through the thread but it wasn't answered. Do tell...?

 

[thekraken]

You said you and a friend both tried the same brown ale recipe and had vastly different results. I propose another experiment. You and your friend both brew the same recipe again, this time each of you brew a double size batch. You each take half of each others wort home with you to ferment. Now between the both of you you'd have 4 batches of what is supposed to be the same beer, compare them after completion and see if you can't narrow down the problem to preferment vs postferment vs environment vs whatever???

Maybe not risk having to dump 10 gallons of one batch... you could each do a six gallon batch and split them into 3 gallon test batches.

 

[mprowland]

I've spent the last hour and 32 minutes waiting in the doctors office binge reading this thread. I gotta say it's been an epic thriller full of twists and turns, highs and lows. Post #215 had me on the edge of my seat with excitement, then post #222 made my eyes water like a school girl. The enigma that plagues OP's brewery is both titillating and infuriating.

All in all I give this first installment of "Still making bad beer after 30+ batches" 4.5 out of 5 stars. What will happen next? Will it be a happy ending with delicious flowing beer fountains? Or will it be a grim G.R.R. Martineque ending full of bittersweet carnage with a side of disappointment? I for one can't wait to find out!

This is too damn funny!! I was hoping the saga would end on the first few pages! Thanks for your dedication on reading the thread.
At this point, I'm only giving updates at the request of people trying to help me out. I don't take the time people give to help me lightly. If people feel that I'm wasting their time with my issues, I'll stop posting. I hate nothing more than when people ask for help and never respond back with what actually fixed their problem. Some other poor sap(like me) can now read this thread and potentially fix their own issues with the great advice(mostly given to me.

 

[mprowland]

I can't locate a post where you state the actual amounts of which salts you've added to a particular grain bill and volume of water. Can you give an example from one of your dark beers? Maybe you are adding way too much of something due to misinterpreting Bru'n Water.

Fair enough, I'll respond to this later when I get home. I have this recipe saved in Bru'N water.

 

[TravelingLight]

If people feel that I'm wasting their time with my issues, I'll stop posting.

Nonsense! Keep it coming. I haven't been involved with this thread actively but I've been lurking. It's baffling me and I personally don't want you to stop posting until it's figured out.

 

[trav77]

Fair enough, I'll respond to this later when I get home. I have this recipe saved in Bru'N water.

I'm a big user of Bru'n Water myself but maybe just to rule out the possibility that you're making an error with it, have you tried simplifying? E.g. just use AJ's water chemistry primer with store-purchased distilled water?

If your water contains chloramines add 1 campden tablet per 20 gallons (before any dilution)

Baseline: Add 1 tsp of calcium chloride dihydrate (what your LHBS sells) to each 5 gallons of water treated. Add 2% sauermalz to the grist.

Deviate from the baseline as follows:

For soft water beers (i.e Pils, Helles). Use half the baseline amount of calcium chloride and increase the sauermalz to 3%

For beers that use roast malt (Stout, porter): Skip the sauermalz.

For British beers: Add 1 tsp gypsum as well as 1 tsp calcium chloride

For very minerally beers (Export, Burton ale): Double the calcium chloride and the gypsum.

That will at least get you in the ballpark and should rule out major water issues.

Sorry if you have already tried this... once upon a time I was following the thread but haven't kept up with it.

 

[bbohanon]

I have never used an extract kit, that's why I'm looking at using one now. Thanks for the vote of confidence. I'd be surprised if you've had any success in life with an attitude like that. Maybe you haven't?

Yea thats me..captain of the U.S.S. Failboat...Seriously, I am just trying to save you some time and headache as others on here, I have read through all of this and I honestly I have no idea how you can still be getting bad beer to the point of dumpers and the thought of dumping 35+ batches would make me get close to saying f-it with the hobby..especially if i had a buddy making great beer I could get a supply line from.

At this point, unless you have someone you know who is currently brewing good beer to be there in-person to brew shotgun with you and help identify anything of concern to the issue you are having..I am not sure you are going to overcome this.

Just keeping it real..

 

[Red_Dog]

You could try bottled spring water not distilled (cut back to 1 or 2 gal. batch) with no salts added, this won't be great beer but should make good beer. Have your friend doctor water or mash at his house then finish process at home, this well narrow down the problem area. Only do small changes to your process to narrow down the problem area. BTW some stores repackage salts to smaller quantities I always worry about this.

 

[mprowland]

Yea thats me..captain of the U.S.S. Failboat...Seriously, I am just trying to save you some time and headache as others on here, I have read through all of this and I honestly I have no idea how you can still be getting bad beer to the point of dumpers and the thought of dumping 35+ batches would make me get close to saying f-it with the hobby..especially if i had a buddy making great beer I could get a supply line from.

At this point, unless you have someone you know who is currently brewing good beer to be there in-person to brew shotgun with you and help identify anything of concern to the issue you are having..I am not sure you are going to overcome this.

Just keeping it real..

I'm beyond the headache stage, now I'm just determined and flat out stubborn. Not a all of my beers have been dumpers, although most of the browns,porters and stouts have been. The IPA's and Raspberry wheats have been decent, but I suspect the hops or fruit are covering up whatever the off taste is. I've had people watch my process and they've had little input as to what I was doing wrong. Although, they were drinking at the time and weren't critiquing my every move. I could never accept defeat and rely on my friend to make me beer. I would feel great shame. This would be like inviting my friend over to satisfy my wife because I couldn't!!

Here are my next steps: I'm going to brew an extract version of this recipe with purchased spring water this Friday. If it's still bad, I'm going to my friends house and make this exact (all-grain) recipe with his water, equipment and fermentation chamber. I may have him do the same with my equipment. This should tell me something of value.

 

[VagueSkunk]

Here's the answer: stick to brewing IPAs and Raspberry wheats.

 

[trav77]

You could try bottled spring water not distilled (cut back to 1 or 2 gal. batch) with no salts added, this won't be great beer but should make good beer.

Watch out if you use spring water though... often it's very high in bicarbonate and this will have an effect, hence my suggestion to try the primer's formula. It's pretty much guaranteed to get you close enough to target mash pH, flavour profile, etc. that you can eliminate water from the list of variables.

BTW some stores repackage salts to smaller quantities I always worry about this.

Way back in the early days of my brewing my mail order LHBS mistakenly repackaged malt on me and it was one of my first batches so I didn't realize but it was extreme. Can't remember exactly what it was supposed to be (med crystal maybe?) but it must have been black patent or something. Completely undrinkable beer. Of course now it seems so obvious that I should have known that was not the correct malt but sometimes you don't know what you don't know.

 

[mprowland]

Watch out if you use spring water though... often it's very high in bicarbonate and this will have an effect, hence my suggestion to try the primer's formula. It's pretty much guaranteed to get you close enough to target mash pH, flavour profile, etc. that you can eliminate water from the list of variables.

I like this idea better. I'll use primer's formula with my R.O. water. Before anyone asks, I do test my R.O. water with a TDS meter and it's around 003-004.

 

[trav77]

I like this idea better. I'll use primer's formula with my R.O. water. Before anyone asks, I do test my R.O. water with a TDS meter and it's around 003-004.

If your next plan is to do an extract batch then skip the primer altogether and just use straight up RO/DI water. No real need for the salts (this will also help eliminate the possibility that there is an issue with your salt additions).

 

[trav77]

Another idea (again, sorry if it's already been mentioned). The problem with extract is that you're then introducing more variables that don't apply to all-grain... stale extract, the extract "twang" etc.

Do you have anyone nearby that you can do a split batch with? Brew 10 gal and you take 1/2 home to ferment, package, etc. with your gear. That would probably be the easiest way to start to narrow down your list of process variables. If all you did was ferment it at home and you still have the problem then it must be your cold side process somewhere. Or vice versa, if it turns out great then it's your hot side.

Or even see if a local brewery you like will sell you 5 gal of wort on brewday. Who knows.

 

[McKnuckle]

I agree totally with @trav77 that you should brew a dark beer with straight, unadulterated RO water. You will rule out any mineral or low pH issues that way, and it will "work" technically even if it's not absolutely ideal. (I'm still looking forward to seeing your salt addition details later.)

 

[bbohanon]

I'm beyond the headache stage, now I'm just determined and flat out stubborn. Not a all of my beers have been dumpers, although most of the browns,porters and stouts have been. The IPA's and Raspberry wheats have been decent, but I suspect the hops or fruit are covering up whatever the off taste is. I've had people watch my process and they've had little input as to what I was doing wrong. Although, they were drinking at the time and weren't critiquing my every move. I could never accept defeat and rely on my friend to make me beer. I would feel great shame. This would be like inviting my friend over to satisfy my wife because I couldn't!!

Here are my next steps: I'm going to brew an extract version of this recipe with purchased spring water this Friday. If it's still bad, I'm going to my friends house and make this exact (all-grain) recipe with his water, equipment and fermentation chamber. I may have him do the same with my equipment. This should tell me something of value.

I am betting if you make sure EVERYTHING is properly cleaned (no perfume soaps here!) and sanitized (if you think its clean, clean it again), use spring water and brew the extract beer EXACTLY as the recipe calls for and ferment at the right temp with good (proper pitch count) healthy yeast, it will turn out stellar.
If you can brew up good beer with extract kits, then you know its your all grain process that is "off" somewhere.

Some things to consider if your beer is getting worse in the keg but tastes great coming out of the fermenter (and trust me, this can be a ***** to chase down):

- Your CO2 lines - make sure you are not using old hoses or hoses that may have had beer backup into them.

- Your CO2 supply - make sure you are using CO2 from a HB source..I had a friend who had a tank filled at a welder and got some off tastes from the CO2 fill on that tank..he ended up trading the tank in and his problems went away (he ended up swapping out the hoses as well once he dumped that CO2 tank).

- Carb PROPERLY..it takes time..I leave mine on the gas for 2 weeks at the proper carb temp and let it just carb slowly. Carbonic bite sucks when "speeding" up the CO2 process. Carbonic bite is a "metal-like" taste in the beer..YUCK

- Make sure your keg is cleaned 100% as well as all posts/poppets/diptubes/etc. CLEAN IT WELL or you will get funkyness in the keg. Had a keg once that whatever was in it before I got it, I just could not get it 100% removed (and I tried everything) and every stinking time I used it, it tossed off flavors in the beer that went in it. I ended up getting rid of it.

In all seriousness, I hope you do track this issue down. Keep us posted.

 

[Kharnynb]

ok...i'm just posting this to track the thread....but i'm adding my vote to just using plain ro water, or just chucking out your salts and getting new ones....

 

[crusader1612]

Ok, I'm climbing back into this one.
Can you post information on the following:
* the last recipe that was crap including all percentages pitch rates starters hops etc.

* The equipment you currently have. (brewing equipment) what is attached to it, and any possible imperfection you can note

* Kegging equipment (tap type, tap number, line length, connections (plastic or steel) have you got clamps attached to them? how long is your shank?

* information on your process: how do you calculate yeast pitch rates, whats your yeast process (rehydration, starters etc.), how do you oxygenate the wort? do you whirlpool? what is your method for cooling? anything else that might be useful

* your fermentation method, temps, ramping temps when how long, how long your fermenting for etc.

* your process for packaging: do you use gravity? CO2? in through the dip tube or via stanard plastic tubing. are you purging your keg prior to filling? force carbing?

* cleaning and sanitation: what are you using, and how much of it? your process for this is useful.

for me its difficult to get a full picture and to nail down whats wrong without seeing a full picture.

 

[mprowland]

(I'm still looking forward to seeing your salt addition details later.)

Here are the salt additions with a bit of lactic acid to get the ph level down. I also verified that I am measuring "grams" and not "grains".

 

[McKnuckle]

You should be seeking a pH around 5.5 for a dark beer. All of your additions lower the pH. The mineral levels are modest and fine, but you don't need lactic acid and you should instead use baking soda to bring the pH up rather than down. I would consider 5.28 too low for such a beer, and a potential cause of harsh flavor perception.

 

[rodgerdodger]

Sorry if people have asked this before but how do you measure the temperature of your Mash? Are your thermometers calibrated? Compensated for altitude?

 

[mprowland]

You should be seeking a pH around 5.5 for a dark beer. All of your additions lower the pH. The mineral levels are modest and fine, but you don't need lactic acid and you should instead use baking soda to bring the pH up rather than down. I would consider 5.28 too low for such a beer, and a potential cause of harsh flavor perception.

This is partially why I want to try an extract version of this; to rule out ph all together. I really have no accurate way to test ph.

 

[mprowland]

Sorry if people have asked this before but how do you measure the temperature of your Mash? Are your thermometers calibrated? Compensated for altitude?

I ran into this problem early on with cheap thermometers; the temperature range would be 10 degrees between the different thermometers I had. I finally bought a decent one from Thermoworks(not the Pen). I tested it with ice water and boiling water, it was within a degree of each. I have not checked it at mash temps though.

 

[McKnuckle]

I have no accurate way to test it either! But I use the tools - brewers friend and Bru'n and a couple others - to estimate it. I aim for 5.5 if the beer is dark, 5.4 or slightly below for pale. I use the range between those values for all of my beers. I have brewed dark beers at 5.3 that I've really disliked. They've had sharp, harsh flavors that never mellowed. Once I aimed for a higher pH, they became good. I think some people are more sensitive to this than others. But I clearly am, and maybe you are too.

 

[mprowland]

I have no accurate way to test it either! But I use the tools - brewers friend and Bru'n and a couple others - to estimate it. I aim for 5.5 if the beer is dark, 5.4 or slightly below for pale. I use the range between those values for all of my beers. I have brewed dark beers at 5.3 that I've really disliked. They've had sharp, harsh flavors that never mellowed. Once I aimed for a higher pH, they became good. I think some people are more sensitive to this than others. But I clearly am, and maybe you are too.

I have made Stouts and Porters in the past where I had the ph up around 5.4-5.5. This was also before I controlled fermentation temperatures and watched out for oxidation. I'll have to readdress this in my next all-grain batch, seems very logical. My next batch (extract) may indirectly tell me that my ph is off. It should at least rule out everything on the mash side of things.

 

[Murphys_Law]

You said you and your buddy made the same recipe but did you guys also use the same water and water additions?

 

[mprowland]

You said you and your buddy made the same recipe but did you guys also use the same water and water additions?

We did not, he used straight well water with no additions. I would like to remind everyone though, I only started using treated RO water because all the various spring water and well water was giving me the same results. Treated RO, spring and well water have made no discernible effect on my dark beers;they've all been equally bad!

 

[rmchair]

Simplify.
Rinse your fermenter well after cleaning.
Brew a partial mash or extract. Just use some water from the grocery store. Forget about water additions.
On transfer day, explain to your buddy or your sig other to watch you like a hawk letting nothing you use touch the liquid that isn't sanitized.
Make sure you mix enough sanitizer.
Don't make a starter.
Make a low gravity porter with Nottingham dry yeast and wait two weeks. No secondary. Don't measure any gravities. Don't muck about in your wart at all.
Use a brand new siphon hose. (Don't forget to sanitize the inside.)
Rinse the hell out of your keg after cleaning.
Make sure you have a check valve on your gas lines so one keg doesn't pollute another.

 

[treacheroustexan]

What do you use to clean? I used to just use really hot water and made pretty bad beer. When I switched to oxy clean all of my beers have been nothing but great.

 

[kh54s10]

You might consider a step backward. Use your municipal water, run it through a filter, Brita, Pur or some other charcoal filter. Treat with a Campden tablet if there is chlorine or Chloramine in the water. Brew without any other additions and see what happens. I have only used adjustments on a few of my beers. They have not been significantly better than the rest that got no adjustments.

Again, I admire your perseverance. If I brewed that many poor beers I would have given up long ago. I am still perplexed. It seems you have taken all the right steps to figure this out. I have no idea. Especially since I have done 10% of the adjustments that you have and get a rare mediocre batch. And only 2 bad beers in 95+???

 

[LostArtBrewer]

Have you tried purging O2 from the headspace in the keg, right after the beer has been transferred?

 

[PlexVector]

Don't worry: When we get to 50 pages the automated Kaizen kicks in, so all problems get fixed...it's quality magic...just below smudging and chicken feet.

I really want you to figure this out. My empathy and prayers go with you brother...

 

[broot]

Actually I do, I use it very liberally and saturate EVERYTHING with it. I use roughly 1/4 teaspoon per quart of water. I usually use the entire bottle on a brew day. I'll definitely try filling up a bucket next time.

it might be the amount of starsan you use. mix 1 oz with 5 gal. of water.

 

[jmos]

+1 on broot's observation.

I make a 5gal batch of Starsan and use it for a number of batches, then toss it and make another. That's what, an ounce of concentrate per 5 batches (I forget the dilution ratio at the moment) - don't know what size bottle your going through per brew, but maybe it's enough to effect the process/taste. That would explain why all your equipment changes haven't fixed the issue.

Good luck, hope you find the problem.

 

[mprowland]

Have you tried purging O2 from the headspace in the keg, right after the beer has been transferred?

(I purge the keg before and after I transfer.)

I may have spoken too soon. Just 3 days ago, there was a distinct bitterness on the back-end that covered up most of the wanted flavors. I tried it today and the bitterness is half of what it was. Normally when I make a dark beer, the taste gets worse with time. So far, this one seems to be getting better. It's still not where I want it, but maybe time will get it there. Maybe increasing the ph will get it there?
I've purchased everything to make the extract version of this recipe. I'm anxious to see if there's an improvement. Thank you for everyone's help. I've used A LOT of the advice given to me.

 

[daveMN]

I've tried to keep up with this thread over the last year, and finally had an idea for something that I don't think has come up. One of the things that Gordon Strong does is to hold off adding dark grains until he's near the end of the mash. He does this to avoid astringency from darker grains. Since you're having more "bitterness" problems with darker beers, this may something that I don't think has been suggested yet and could be worth trying.

 

[IslandLizard]

I've tried to keep up with this thread over the last year, and finally had an idea for something that I don't think has come up. One of the things that Gordon Strong does is to hold off adding dark grains until he's near the end of the mash. He does this to avoid astringency from darker grains. Since you're having more "bitterness" problems with darker beers, this may something that I don't think has been suggested yet and could be worth trying.

I'd go the next level, since I don't believe in complete extraction during 2 (batch) sparges. Adding right before the sparge may work when fly sparging for an hour, which many homebrewers don't do.

I steep (and sparge) my dark grains @150F outside the mash and add the black potion to the main wort after the boil, after it has chilled to around 160-170F. So the dark wort never sees a boil. I hate boiled coffee.