Still making bad beer after 30+ batches.

[mprowland]

How do you clean the keggle? I use Bar Keeper's Friend and have never seen a residue from the surface.

As soon as I'm done brewing, I lightly scrub the surface with water and a green scotch-brite pad. I don't use any cleaner. Visually, the keggle is stain free. On brew day, I rinse the keggle out and wipe down with a rag; no scrubbing.

 

[Bassman2003]

Just curious, where does the '15 times' number come from? The keg space is so small I can't see more than a few emptying the space. Now if you came back multiple times to get the oxygen to keep coming out of solution and emptied it would make more sense. But does the CO2 push the DO out of solution?

 

[Bassman2003]

As soon as I'm done brewing, I lightly scrub the surface with water and a green scotch-brite pad. I don't use any cleaner. Visually, the keggle is stain free. On brew day, I rinse the keggle out and wipe down with a rag; no scrubbing.

I would switch to something like a plastic dish or scrubbing brush and pick up some Bar Keeper's Friend. The plastic is better for the SS and the BKF makes the stuff look like new. Just get the keg a little wet, add BKF, scrub then rinse. Not too much water with the cleaner but a good rinse after you are done. Wear gloves as the BKF does a number on your skin.

 

[eulipion2]

I'm concerned about the "gray residue." Since your keggle should be stainless steel, I'm assuming the film isn't coming from the metal. Could it be a significant buildup of beer stone? Could that be throwing off the flavor?

Bring a 50:50 mix of vinegar and water, let's say about a gallon of each, to a boil (or at least get it really hot), turn off the heat, cover your kettle and let it sit for 5 min. Now see if you get that gray residue when you wipe down the keggle. If yes, scrub that crap out, rinse thoroughly, and try another brew.

 

[Braufessor]

Just curious, where does the '15 times' number come from? The keg space is so small I can't see more than a few emptying the space. Now if you came back multiple times to get the oxygen to keep coming out of solution and emptied it would make more sense. But does the CO2 push the DO out of solution?

That is if you are trying to purge an empty keg...... you hit it with a bunch of CO2 then vent..... there is still oxygen in the keg because all you are doing is mixing CO2 with the O2 that was there to start with. So, if your strategy is to purge an empty keg with CO2 and then vent it..... you need to do it something like 15 times if you actually think you are going to reduce Oxygen to near zero.

If you are forcing out a keg full of star san, then basically once is good enough.

 

[Bassman2003]

Thanks for clarifying. I agree.

Mark, keep us updated on the keggle cleaning. We are all sorry that homebrewing is not yielding great results. I have changed some equipment over the years and hit some rough patches. Hope you find the answer. I like the idea of trying an extract batch or fermenting somebody else's wort.

 

[TheMadKing]

That is if you are trying to purge an empty keg...... you hit it with a bunch of CO2 then vent..... there is still oxygen in the keg because all you are doing is mixing CO2 with the O2 that was there to start with. So, if your strategy is to purge an empty keg with CO2 and then vent it..... you need to do it something like 15 times if you actually think you are going to reduce Oxygen to near zero.



If you are forcing out a keg full of star san, then basically once is good enough.

No that's to purge the head space in a full keg, Dougcz has done experiments and calculations and demonstrated that you need to purge a full keg that many times to reduce the O2 content to 0.01ppm which is "professional level" packaging standards.

I'll dig up his calculations and graphs later if I remember, but it's way more than you think.

EDIT here's the thread where he discusses it. https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?p=7616695

Besides, a full keg or empty keg doesn't matter, it will take the same number of purges. Think about it. You are charging to a pressure, meaning that you are scaling your oxygen displacement per purge to however much free volume you have in the keg. The ratio per purge stays the same.

 

[PLOVE]

the flavors you described early on sound like yeast produced flavors to me. Try overpitching a batch and fermenting in the middle-cool part of the range. Get it off the trub after 10-12 days. Make sure you cold crash, fine with gelatin, keg it cold, and then let it sit in the keg cold for a week or two before drinking. Get as much suspended yeast out as you can. It makes a big difference in flavor to me, and all my beers had a common earthy/grainy/stale/corn like flavor until I started taking steps to reduce suspended yeast.

I second MadKing on this one. If you under pitch, or stress your yeast you can definitely get off, side of the tongue, flavors that to my palate seem "metallic". Are you recycling yeast? If using fresh yeast, particularly liquid smack packs, are you making a starter or using multiple packs per 5 gallons. If not, you're likely under pitching.

Just thinking out loud. . .

 

[dhelegda]

It's the same off-flavor in almost all the beers. I can't describe it but it's always on the back-end. I notice it more with porters and stouts. I still notice them in IPA's, they're just not as noticeable.



I have many friends that brew. I watch them, and they watch me. There seems to be nothing out of the ordinary. I just need someone with a technical palate for beer to tell me what's wrong. When and if I fix this issue, I have no doubt that my beer will be outstanding. I believe I have ruled out all of the rookie mistakes through this process.

It may be your keg or keg lines. Keg lines are cheap enough to replace. I brewed a root beer ale and now the only think I can run through the lines are root beer, luckily I have children, and they love root beer. But back to my point sometimes the lines and kegs will hold on to nasty flavors. Have you tried bottling your brews?

 

[mprowland]

I'll try and answer a few questions: I have 15-gallon SS Brewtech kettle on order so I'm not going to be too concerned with cleaning the old one. I'm sick of slinging that heavy bastard around anyway! I typically make a starter with everything that's not Nottingham and US-05(1000ml to 100 grams of DME typically). If I'm using dry yeast, I'll use 2 packages for anything over 1.060. I do rehydrate all dry yeast. All keg lines and tubing are new. I'll try one more batch with my new kettle. With exception to my immersion chiller, EVERYTHING will have been replaced since I originally had this problem; kettle, mash tun w/false bottom, fermenters, sparge water pot, corny kegs, temp controlled fermentation chamber, valves, tubing, thermometers, Starsan, CO2 tanks and regulators, water and buying grain from two different suppliers. There is literally almost nothing else to replace. If this next batch turns out the same, I'll brew the next with my buddies setup and I'll have him do the same. I'm determined to make beer brewing my *****! I have no doubt that my beer will be awesome when I finally find the culprit. I just hope I find it. Thanks again for everyone's suggestions!

 

[TheMadKing]

I'll try and answer a few questions: I have 15-gallon SS Brewtech kettle on order so I'm not going to be too concerned with cleaning the old one. I'm sick of slinging that heavy bastard around anyway! I typically make a starter with everything that's not Nottingham and US-05(1000ml to 100 grams of DME typically). If I'm using dry yeast, I'll use 2 packages for anything over 1.060. I do rehydrate all dry yeast. All keg lines and tubing are new. I'll try one more batch with my new kettle. With exception to my immersion chiller, EVERYTHING will have been replaced since I originally had this problem; kettle, mash tun w/false bottom, fermenters, sparge water pot, corny kegs, temp controlled fermentation chamber, valves, tubing, thermometers, Starsan, CO2 tanks and regulators, water and buying grain from two different suppliers. There is literally almost nothing else to replace. If this next batch turns out the same, I'll brew the next with my buddies setup and I'll have him do the same. I'm determined to make beer brewing my *****! I have no doubt that my beer will be awesome when I finally find the culprit. I just hope I find it. Thanks again for everyone's suggestions!

What commercial beers do you like?

 

[SnowRaven]

Hello, sorry to hear of your troubles

FYI on the instructions with my 2nd Spike Kettle (arrived last week)
Spike has now told us to not use the green scotch-brite pad

Just use PBW or like and then shine with Barkeepers friend and stainless scrubbers or a rag

that grey sludge is oxidation, and may have created by use of those pads (i have seen it in new cast SS parts multiple times)

or if the first pot was not a high grade of stainless could have been an issue.

 

[mprowland]

I like almost ALL commercial beers. Everything from Bell's to PBR and Blatz. The only two beers that were undrinkable for me thus far have been Dragon's Milk and a potentially bad bottle of Rolling Rock. I've actually had a decent concoction of beer from a bar mat from under the taps that I actually liked! From top to bottom, Bell's anything is my favorite.
Thanks for the scrotch-brite tip, I definitely won't be using it on my new one!!!

 

[TheMadKing]

I like almost ALL commercial beers. Everything from Bell's to PBR and Blatz. The only two beers that were undrinkable for me thus far have been Dragon's Milk and a potentially bad bottle of Rolling Rock. I've actually had a decent concoction of beer from a bar mat from under the taps that I actually liked! From top to bottom, Bell's anything is my favorite.
Thanks for the scrotch-brite tip, I definitely won't be using it on my new one!!!

Hmm well I was hoping to narrow down your palette sensitivities with that question. Everyone is different, I personally don't like many Belgian beers because my palette is sensitive to phenolic flavors which are common byproducts of Belgian strains, and they taste weird to me.

I really think yeast flavor is your root issue. Most commercial beers are filtered and have no yeasty taste.

In homebrew, cold crash, gelatin, keg and cold condition some more. And don't throw out a batch until its been cold in the keg and on gas for at least 2 months.

And don't move your kegs!

 

[Bassman2003]

No that's to purge the head space in a full keg, Dougcz has done experiments and calculations and demonstrated that you need to purge a full keg that many times to reduce the O2 content to 0.01ppm which is "professional level" packaging standards.

I'll dig up his calculations and graphs later if I remember, but it's way more than you think.

EDIT here's the thread where he discusses it. https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?p=7616695

Besides, a full keg or empty keg doesn't matter, it will take the same number of purges. Think about it. You are charging to a pressure, meaning that you are scaling your oxygen displacement per purge to however much free volume you have in the keg. The ratio per purge stays the same.

Sorry to go off track, but I just do not understand the logic here. We are talking about an inch of space in a full keg. Turn on the CO2 and the O2 is pushed to the top given CO2 is heavier. With the pressure of the incoming CO2, it seems the O2 would be wisked out. In fact everything would be pushed out only to be replaced with the rush of the new CO2. How could anything remain?

Now if you are counting the O2 in solution it would take more time for it to come out of solution given the right pressure conditions. But I do not think that is the focus of tipping the relief valve.

 

[Braufessor]

No that's to purge the head space in a full keg, Dougcz has done experiments and calculations and demonstrated that you need to purge a full keg that many times to reduce the O2 content to 0.01ppm which is "professional level" packaging standards.

I'll dig up his calculations and graphs later if I remember, but it's way more than you think.

EDIT here's the thread where he discusses it. https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?p=7616695

Besides, a full keg or empty keg doesn't matter, it will take the same number of purges. Think about it. You are charging to a pressure, meaning that you are scaling your oxygen displacement per purge to however much free volume you have in the keg. The ratio per purge stays the same.

Ok.... it takes 15 purges to displace the O2 in an inch of head space and it takes 15 purges to displace the o2 in an entire keg..... but, that is a big difference. The AMOUNT of CO2 it takes to purge an inch of head space is nothing. The amount to purge an entire keg is huge. So..... "Full or empty" does matter....... it is the difference between a tiny bit of CO2 and using an entire cylinder. And, if you fill a keg 100% full of star san, and push the Star san out with CO2, and do a closed transfer..... you only need to "purge" it one time.... not 15.

 

[Braufessor]

Sorry to go off track, but I just do not understand the logic here. We are talking about an inch of space in a full keg. Turn on the CO2 and the O2 is pushed to the top given CO2 is heavier. With the pressure of the incoming CO2, it seems the O2 would be wisked out. In fact everything would be pushed out only to be replaced with the rush of the new CO2. How could anything remain?

Now if you are counting the O2 in solution it would take more time for it to come out of solution given the right pressure conditions. But I do not think that is the focus of tipping the relief valve.

The whole "CO2 is heavier than O2" thing is basically a myth/misunderstanding of gas laws. When you put CO2 into a keg (air space) it does not entirely displace what is there.... it mixes. So, it reduces the % Oxygen but does not eliminate it. It is like you are cutting the O2 in half, and in half again, and in half again.... overtime you purge it. But, ultimately, you have to cut it in half 15 times to "eliminate" it. Now...... there is a HUGE difference between doing that with an inch of head space and an empty keg.

 

[berndawg84]

I'm no expert, but for your next batch I wonder about saving a little and bottling a 6 pack or so of it and kegging the rest and then compare the taste? Perhaps it's the keg? Also tbh maybe somebody suggested this, I haven't read the whole thread.

And not to be patronizing but I assume you haven't experienced this taste in other commercial beers or other drinks you've had recently?

 

[mprowland]

I'm no expert, but for your next batch I wonder about saving a little and bottling a 6 pack or so of it and kegging the rest and then compare the taste? Perhaps it's the keg? Also tbh maybe somebody suggested this, I haven't read the whole thread.

And not to be patronizing but I assume you haven't experienced this taste in other commercial beers or other drinks you've had recently?

I tried bottling a 6-pack a year ago; it tasted the same. I have not tasted the issue in any commercial beer. Others who have tasted my beer have not tasted this issue in a commercial beer. The issue is not subtle, it's fairly apparent. I'm told the smell is fine, it's the taste on the back end. I have a few things to try on the next batch. 1. New kettle and NO Scotch-Brite. 2. Get the beer off the yeast cake after 10 days. 3. Cold crash. 4. Use RO water with StarSan.
For those that use Bar Keepers, doesn't this remove the oxidation layer as well? I tried cleaning the outside of my keg with a green scotch-brite pad and it barely removes anything. If I use BKF, it removes everything. It just seems more abrasive than a green scotch-brite pad.

 

[TheMadKing]

Ok.... it takes 15 purges to displace the O2 in an inch of head space and it takes 15 purges to displace the o2 in an entire keg..... but, that is a big difference. The AMOUNT of CO2 it takes to purge an inch of head space is nothing. The amount to purge an entire keg is huge. So..... "Full or empty" does matter....... it is the difference between a tiny bit of CO2 and using an entire cylinder. And, if you fill a keg 100% full of star san, and push the Star san out with CO2, and do a closed transfer..... you only need to "purge" it one time.... not 15.

100% agree, I wasn't arguing with that point, just correcting the "15 purges only applies to an empty keg" thing

 

[Bassman2003]

The main thing is to not scratch the SS. I need to research but I think BKF will re-passivate the SS which is what keeps it from rusting. Removing everything is what you want! Just without any scratching. Plastic scrub brush works well for me.

Is the gray residue gone after you use BKF on the inside of the kettle?

 

[mprowland]

Is the gray residue gone after you use BKF on the inside of the kettle?

. I've never used it on the inside. When I do scrub it with a scotch-brite pad, I do it after brew day so there is time for oxide layer to build. I don't know if that helps or not.

 

[Bassman2003]

Why don't you try BKF on the inside without the pad? In all of the years of using my keggle, I have never seen any residue. SS does not give off residue as a normal course of activity.

 

[dallasdb]

No offense OP but man this would be one amazing troll if all this was a ruse!

Who the hell keeps brewing after 30 batches of bad beer and the financial investment that goes with it?!?!?

 

[mprowland]

No offense OP but man this would be one amazing troll if all this was a ruse!

Who the hell keeps brewing after 30 batches of bad beer and the financial investment that goes with it?!?!?

Very valid question! I wouldn't say they were all terrible. I would say out of the 30 batches; 4 were good, 12 were mediocre(at best), 8 were bad but barely drinkable and the remaining 6 were "pour down the drain" bad. I have yet to make a beer I would be proud of. If "you" look at the ingredients and steps to make beer, it "appears" to be ridiculously easy. Over the past couple of years I've researched and dissected every step along the way ruling out any obvious problems with my equipment and/or procedures and still can't get it right. What's even more frustrating is watching other people make AWESOME beer without being nearly as anal as I am. I'm stubborn and pissed off more than anything at this point. I have a love/hate relationship with trying to get it right. I feel like I'm too far into this thing to give up now. I have no doubt that I'm one little fix away from making awesome beer. With my luck, if this does happen, I'll probably develop Type 2 diabetes and won't be able to drink any of it anyway!!

 

[dallasdb]

I skimmed through the first 10 pages of the thread. Have you tried a simple extract recipe?

Do you like commercial beers?

Do your friends like your beers?

Just wondering, maybe you are too damn picky and you are actually brewing decent beer.

 

[mprowland]

I skimmed through the first 10 pages of the thread. Have you tried a simple extract recipe?

Do you like commercial beers?

Do your friends like your beers?

Just wondering, maybe you are too damn picky and you are actually brewing decent beer.

-I have not tried an extract recipe, not a bad idea.
-Love commercial beers
-Telling someone their beer sucks is like telling a friend that their kid is insanely ugly; it just doesn't happen. They say it's good or decent, but only have ONE beer and then switch to something else. I don't know about you, but if like a beer, I stick with it for awhile. Luckily, my friend now confirms that he tastes what I've been tasting now for awhile. The truth finally comes out!

 

[TheMadKing]

-
-Telling someone their beer sucks is like telling a friend that their kid is insanely ugly; it just doesn't happen. They say it's good or decent, but only have ONE beer and then switch to something else. I don't know about you, but if like a beer, I stick with it for awhile. Luckily, my friend now confirms that he tastes what I've been tasting now for awhile. The truth finally comes out!

Get better critics than your friends. As others have suggested, homebrew clubs, LHBS guys, or even look up a regional BJCP judge and ask for help identifying the flavor.

Rule #1 about tasting homebrew, brutal honesty! it will only result in better beer which is better for everyone.

 

[GPP33]

Just curious, where does the '15 times' number come from? The keg space is so small I can't see more than a few emptying the space. Now if you came back multiple times to get the oxygen to keep coming out of solution and emptied it would make more sense. But does the CO2 push the DO out of solution?

If you look closely at the graph in the linked thread a few posts back you'll see that the number of times is dependent on the pressure used. 15 times will get you to .01ppm at 30 PSI, at 15 PSI it won't get you close and at 60 PSI you'll be there after 8 purges. PV=nRT, double the pressure in a given volume and you get twice the gas molecules therefore purging with twice the pressure will get you the same turnover in half the purge cycles.

The question is what level of O2 is acceptable. Head space O2 does not equal DO.The problem with the chart is it assumes your purge gas has zero O2, which isn't the case. Beverage CO2 is 99.9% pure, that means .1%, or 1,000PPM is not CO2. We don't know what it is but let's assume it's "air" which has 20% O2. If this is the case then your CO2 has 200ppm O2. That's the lowest you'll ever get your head space. At 15 PSI 10 purges will get you to the lowest theoretical value you can get with Beverage CO2. Medical and industrial CO2 has 5 times the level of impurities, 8 15 PSI purges will get the job done in this case.

I usually toss a couple more in, 12 purges at 15 PSI gets it done for me

 

[dallasdb]

OP,

Try this blonde ale kit from www.RiteBrew.com

It's a great recipe and it's CHEAP!!!

Go with the dry yeast and its $20.58

http://www.ritebrew.com/product-p/851080.htm

The cream ale is also very good and only $20.58

http://www.ritebrew.com/product-p/851054.htm

When I'm low on beer and need to get something quick and easy that most everyone likes I go with these two!

 

[RoadKing]

If you look closely at the graph in the linked thread a few posts back you'll see that the number of times is dependent on the pressure used. 15 times will get you to .01ppm at 30 PSI, at 15 PSI it won't get you close and at 60 PSI you'll be there after 8 purges. PV=nRT, double the pressure in a given volume and you get twice the gas molecules therefore purging with twice the pressure will get you the same turnover in half the purge cycles.

The question is what level of O2 is acceptable. Head space O2 does not equal DO.The problem with the chart is it assumes your purge gas has zero O2, which isn't the case. Beverage CO2 is 99.9% pure, that means .1%, or 1,000PPM is not CO2. We don't know what it is but let's assume it's "air" which has 20% O2. If this is the case then your CO2 has 200ppm O2. That's the lowest you'll ever get your head space. At 15 PSI 10 purges will get you to the lowest theoretical value you can get with Beverage CO2. Medical and industrial CO2 has 5 times the level of impurities, 8 15 PSI purges will get the job done in this case.

I usually toss a couple more in, 12 purges at 15 PSI gets it done for me

Way off topic. You guys should start a new thread, and for what it's worth, I've been kegging beer for 23 years and I have never needed a spread sheet to purge head space. Geez

 

[Bassman2003]

If you look closely at the graph in the linked thread a few posts back you'll see that the number of times is dependent on the pressure used. 15 times will get you to .01ppm at 30 PSI, at 15 PSI it won't get you close and at 60 PSI you'll be there after 8 purges. PV=nRT, double the pressure in a given volume and you get twice the gas molecules therefore purging with twice the pressure will get you the same turnover in half the purge cycles.

The question is what level of O2 is acceptable. Head space O2 does not equal DO.The problem with the chart is it assumes your purge gas has zero O2, which isn't the case. Beverage CO2 is 99.9% pure, that means .1%, or 1,000PPM is not CO2. We don't know what it is but let's assume it's "air" which has 20% O2. If this is the case then your CO2 has 200ppm O2. That's the lowest you'll ever get your head space. At 15 PSI 10 purges will get you to the lowest theoretical value you can get with Beverage CO2. Medical and industrial CO2 has 5 times the level of impurities, 8 15 PSI purges will get the job done in this case.

I usually toss a couple more in, 12 purges at 15 PSI gets it done for me

Thanks. Please see post #295 I just don't see it but I am still thinking about full kegs right after transfer when I hear the word "purge". Popping the blowoff switch two or three times.

I won't post anymore about this to stay on topic...

 

[ncbrewer]

This article is about care of stainless - it might help:
https://byo.com/stories/item/1516-tlc-for-stainless

 

[GPP33]

Way off topic. You guys should start a new thread, and for what it's worth, I've been kegging beer for 23 years and I have never needed a spread sheet to purge head space. Geez

I think it's safe to say that all of the on topic advice has been given over the past 31 pages. Just sayin.....

 

[DaWhip]

I think I read every post in this thing over the last few days. My 2 cents - Try some small batches. I have been having a lot of fun doing 1 gallon batches between bigger batches and I feel like it has helped me as a brewer too because I get to focus a lot more on what I'm doing. You can do a simple BIAB recipe on the stove top and eliminate a lot of variables. It is a lot easier to find the time to do all the little things and check on your ferment throughout the process.

 

[sikkingj]

What commercial beards do you like? Do you like your friend's homebrew.

I think you may be overly critical of your home brews - I seem to be able to taste any flaw in my beer that I would not-detect / ignore in someone else's.

My beer has improved from having my brew club taste and critic them. Go for the best club you can and they will help you pin point your pain point.

Without a sample, I'm unsure what else we can do for...

That being said, try brewing on a friend's rig and see if you have the same taste.

 

[modifier]

For how long you're boiling the DME starter wort? how are you cooling it?

 

[normonster]

Is there a place where I can send off a couple bottles and have them tell me what's wrong with my beer? I've made 30+ all-grain batches now and almost everyone of them has been barely drinkable. I have yet to make a beer that I would pay money for. I'm done trying to troubleshoot as I've tried just about everything(too long to list here). I've tried a few brewers locally and they couldn't tell me. I'm at wits end and am sick of dumping gallons upon gallons down the drain. Thanks for any input......Mark

Man, you started a thread of epicness.

Instead of dumping, my advice would be to bottle anyway. Let is sit for a month, or two, or three, then refrigerate for 1 week. No matter how horrible your beer is, this will improve it significantly.

I recently tweaked a Blond recipe, mashing higher, and I blew it and ended up with some thick sweet stuff that I hated. Gave most of it away within a month, then about a month later I decided to lager what I had left, tried that 2 weeks later and it is a really good beer. So about 3 month of age made a world of difference.

 

[normonster]

For how long you're boiling the DME starter wort? how are you cooling it?

Haha, he says in the opening post that he is all-grain, not DME.

You just added to the epic nature of the thread with a totally off topic post.

 

[treacheroustexan]

Haha, he says in the opening post that he is all-grain, not DME.

You just added to the epic nature of the thread with a totally off topic post.

key word, "starter wort". You (typically) use DME for starters, not grain.