Still making bad beer after 30+ batches.

[mprowland]

Maybe your tongue is broken! Kinda like the blonde that goes to the doc. Pokes herself in the arm, "It hurts when I do this," pokes herself in the chest, "It hurts when I do this," pokes herself in the leg, "It hurts when I do this..." Doc diagnoses her with a broken finger.

Kidding but seriously...I didn't see it mentioned and a search turned up nothing, but what about your thermometer?

Funny! There have been several people(other than myself) who noticed that my beer is just "off", although they can't describe what's wrong. They're normally "one and done" when they have one of my beers.
I have a thermometer from thermoworks. I did go through a few before I found one that was fairly accurate.

 

[trav77]

This does sound to me like some brews I did before adjusting mash AND sparge pH with acid. Getting the pH dialled in with BrunWater really helped and I haven't noticed that slight front end taste of slight stale/astringent flavour.

 

[mprowland]

This does sound to me like some brews I did before adjusting mash AND sparge pH with acid. Getting the pH dialled in with BrunWater really helped and I haven't noticed that slight front end taste of slight stale/astringent flavour.

Thanks for mentioning the sparge water. I've never done this before and definitely will this coming Friday.

 

[McKnuckle]

If you are estimating mash pH when you construct your water, shoot for 5.5 on the dark beers. For me, it softens the edges of a roasty beer very nicely.

 

[Rhaop]

Astringency is an annoying off flavor i never detected it in my beers until after packaging and only one of my friends could detect it and he blamed it on me using rice hulls lol, i experienced it for the first time after switching to full volume BiaB mashing, it really only affected my lighter beers, if your dark beers are worst off it could be that your mash ph is dipping too low

Good luck

 

[rmyurick]

I guess a couple more hints would be in order: don't over-sparge (I think most people say to cut it off when your runnings reach 1.010, temp.-adjusted, but you can stop earlier; also, you can taste to see if it's getting too astringent). Also, don't sparge too hot--I shoot for 170, but 168 would be even better.

 

[mprowland]

I guess a couple more hints would be in order: don't over-sparge (I think most people say to cut it off when your runnings reach 1.010, temp.-adjusted, but you can stop earlier; also, you can taste to see if it's getting too astringent). Also, don't sparge too hot--I shoot for 170, but 168 would be even better.

I have a question about over sparging. I typically use a calculator to figure out mash and sparge volumes. http://www.brew365.com/mash_sparge_water_calculator.php
I usually have 4 gallons in the mash and 5-5.5 gallons of sparge(depending on grain bill). Should I be doing this another way? For temperature, I always sparge at 168.

 

[rmyurick]

I'm not the ultimate expert on this--just a homebrewer, but here's the way I do it. I assume you are fly sparging--if you're batch sparging, it shouldn't be an issue.

After vorlauf, I let down the liquid level til it's maybe a half inch above the bed. Then add sparge water, try to keep the level an inch or two or more above the bed. I control the runoff rate with the outlet valve (approximately, using a measuring cup & timer, then eyeballing the stream) so that the whole sparge takes about 1 hour. When the kettle's nearing the expected level, or runoff is looking pretty weak, start tasting & testing the runoff. Usually, when I start to check it's about 1.020 & I usually don't have to stop before my sparge water is gone. Last batch I made I stopped at 1.015, since I had plenty of volume and gravity in the kettle already.

Since the last batch I made was very light in color, I acidifyed my sparge for the first time--Used brunwater spreadsheet, which called for 1.7 ml of lactic acid, which is maybe a quarter-teaspoon? I only went down to 7 on pH. (tap water is about 7.3)

If you are pretty sure tannins are the problem, you could do an extract batch as a control & see how that comes out.

I made a stout a couple batches ago & it's not great--I didn't pay that much attention to water & maybe got the mash too hot. I think it finished around 1.028. (OG around 1.068, I think) One of the few beers I made that I just don't really want more of, even if I want one. So I can relate.

 

[rmyurick]

I noticed that BYO has posted an article today on water & pH: http://byo.com/stories/issue/item/3372-understanding-ph-advanced-brewing

 

[JLeuck64]

I have a question about over sparging. I typically use a calculator to figure out mash and sparge volumes. http://www.brew365.com/mash_sparge_water_calculator.php
I usually have 4 gallons in the mash and 5-5.5 gallons of sparge(depending on grain bill). Should I be doing this another way? For temperature, I always sparge at 168.

I approach sparging from more of an efficiency viewpoint, I am trying to max out the sugar extraction from the grains. See my post, #20 from this thread about efficiency to see how I crunch the numbers to get a 50/50 split from 1st and 2nd runnings. If you are currently getting efficiency numbers in the high 70's then I would say you are using the correct volumes for mash and sparge already. But... since you admit that you are already using larger volumes to sparge with then I might suspect that the temperature of the grain bed might get too high... and contribute to the astringency mentioned by others. I typically mash in with more water than I sparge with to get to that magic 50/50 split.

 

[mprowland]

A little bit of an update...I transferred my Left Hand Milk Stout clone(found here: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=139820) to a keg. I used new 3-piece valves on the boil kettle and mash tun. I soaked everything in PBW and used a new bottle of StarSan. I used a new Speidel fermenter as well. I purged the keg before and after I filled it up and drained(not siphoned) the beer to the keg. I basically did everything I said I was going to do before I made this batch. I hit the O.G and F.G. numbers spot on. So far the hydrometer sample was very good. If in a week I get a colder carbonated version of this sample, I'll be very happy. More to come in a week!

P.S. I had many people over this past weekend and tried my Chocolate Oatmeal Porter(pre-changes). They all said it wasn't bad but no one finished their glass! I know it's not all in my head. Hopefully that was the last of the bad batches. Time will tell...

 

[khillian]

Great to hear! Update this thread after the cold carbonated tasting. Cheers.

 

[Genacide]

Any Update?

 

[Citizen86]

Any Update?

Everyone is in anxious expectation

 

[mprowland]

I am cautiously optimistic that my problem is fixed! I changed several things(see post#211), but I believe the combination of not using my crappy cracked siphon and purging the keg before and after the fill had the greatest impact. The beer has been in the keg for 2-weeks now and it seems to get better with age. I also have the Chocolate Oatmeal Porter(pre-changes) on the other tap and it's getting worse with age. This lends me to believe that I've had an oxidation problem. Am I off base? I can't say for sure 100% that my problem is solved-as I may have gotten lucky, but none of my porters,browns or stouts have turned out this good. My wife thinks I've corrected the problem, she doesn't make the "bitter beer face" anymore when she takes a sip. Thanks to everyone that responded. I have no doubt that I wouldn't have fixed this if it wasn't for your help. Thank You-Thank You-Thank You! :rockin:

 

[thaymond]

I am cautiously optimistic that my problem is fixed! I changed several things(see post#211), but I believe the combination of not using my crappy cracked siphon and purging the keg before and after the fill had the greatest impact. The beer has been in the keg for 2-weeks now and it seems to get better with age. I also have the Chocolate Oatmeal Porter(pre-changes) on the other tap and it's getting worse with age. This lends me to believe that I've had an oxidation problem. Am I off base? I can't say for sure 100% that my problem is solved-as I may have gotten lucky, but none of my porters,browns or stouts have turned out this good. My wife thinks I've corrected the problem, she doesn't make the "bitter beer face" anymore when she takes a sip. Thanks to everyone that responded. I have no doubt that I wouldn't have fixed this if it wasn't for your help. Thank You-Thank You-Thank You! :rockin:

^ this +1. Congrats!

 

[muels]

Awesome! Good for you.

 

[mhermetz]

Nice! I'm currently have the same problem. Sounds eerily similar to yours. I've had people tell me that it's possible my auto siphon may be contaminated with bacteria. Seeing as mine is cracked from age like yours maybe that is the culprit. (among other things)

 

[LostArtBrewer]

Love it! Glad to help! Also, if you bottle beer and want to avoid oxidation, try to fill the bottles just under the cap so as to reduce headspace. Cheers, Joe W.

 

[seabrew8]

My first question is what are you looking for? Beer will never taste like chocolate milk for instance. I enjoy my beer but it will never will taste better then a cold glass of chocolate milk.

 

[crusader1612]

My first question is what are you looking for? Beer will never taste like chocolate milk for instance. I enjoy my beer but it will never will taste better then a cold glass of chocolate milk.

For some reason I laughed really hard at this.
Sad. I know.
But very very true.

 

[mprowland]

Looks like I spoke too soon. My milk stout is starting to turn for the worse. The beer was at its' best a week into the keg, now it's slowly getting worse. My wife LOVED it at first, but not so much now. We're both disappointed with how it's turning out. The only thing I can think that would make it worse with age would be oxidation? I feel like I've done everything to avoid this. I'm completely at a loss now.

 

[ViciousFishes]

To be sure, you need to brew another batch!!!!

 

[mprowland]

To be sure, you need to brew another batch!!!!

I agree, I need to brew another dark beer of some sort. I have too many summer beers waiting on deck so it may be awhile.

 

[urg8rb8]

I would say let it age out. Try it in another month. I've had beers that tasted very good out of the gate... then turned funky... then turn back 180 and tasted awesome. Don't give up hope just yet.

 

[rmyurick]

It could be a wild yeast or bacterial infection of some sort. Describe the off taste-is it phenolic? Sour? Barnyard-y??

 

[MattyIce]

Submit your beer for judging? This comp is coming up:

http://www.michiganbeercup.com/

 

[mhermetz]

Looks like I spoke too soon. My milk stout is starting to turn for the worse. The beer was at its' best a week into the keg, now it's slowly getting worse. My wife LOVED it at first, but not so much now. We're both disappointed with how it's turning out. The only thing I can think that would make it worse with age would be oxidation? I feel like I've done everything to avoid this. I'm completely at a loss now.

That sounds like a bacterial infection in either the keg or lines. If it continues to get worse that could be the issue. If it gets better, well then I don't know.

 

[Anyhowe]

Bottle one up and send it to me. I will report my thoughts back to the discussion. Pm me for addy if you want.

 

[Transamguy77]

I've read this thread off and on and I feel your pain, I had an infection problem myself and it turns out it was in my basement at my previous house. Before I found the problem I dumped about 100 gallons of beer.

I know you have said you have replaced a bunch of stuff but could it be where you are fermenting? Maybe try brewing and fermenting somewhere else? Just trying to think outside the box.

 

[Citizen86]

Before I found the problem I dumped about 100 gallons of beer.

 

[Transamguy77]

Yes......it was horrible.

 

[chickypad]

Before I found the problem I dumped about 100 gallons of beer.

OMG, kudos to you. I wouldn't have been able to stick that out.

OP not to sound like a broken record but can you or your wife describe what exactly changed? Anything at all we can go on - as above sour/tart, horse blanket/barnyard, sherry-like, I will add butterscotch, smokey, bandaid, metallic. Oxidation and infection are the only 2 things I can think of that would make a beer you love at first tap turn bad.

 

[mprowland]

OMG, kudos to you. I wouldn't have been able to stick that out.

OP not to sound like a broken record but can you or your wife describe what exactly changed? Anything at all we can go on - as above sour/tart, horse blanket/barnyard, sherry-like, I will add butterscotch, smokey, bandaid, metallic. Oxidation and infection are the only 2 things I can think of that would make a beer you love at first tap turn bad.

I'd say the taste has a bit "twang" or tangy taste. Maybe a bit of sweetness or brandy like taste? I will say that today it tastes better than it did 3 days ago. The twangy taste seems like it's slowly working its way to a roastyness taste. Maybe another week will tell me more.

 

[mprowland]

I've read this thread off and on and I feel your pain, I had an infection problem myself and it turns out it was in my basement at my previous house. Before I found the problem I dumped about 100 gallons of beer.

I know you have said you have replaced a bunch of stuff but could it be where you are fermenting? Maybe try brewing and fermenting somewhere else? Just trying to think outside the box.

When I take a sample for checking my original gravity, I usually leave it on the counter for a week or so. The sample ferments just as fast as my wort, and this is with no yeast added to it!! There is obviously a fair amount of wild yeast in the air. Maybe this has something to do with it?

 

[Transamguy77]

When I take a sample for checking my original gravity, I usually leave it on the counter for a week or so. The sample ferments just as fast as my wort, and this is with no yeast added to it!! There is obviously a fair amount of wild yeast in the air. Maybe this has something to do with it?

Anything is possible, what I ended up doing is fermenting in different parts of my house and found that if I fermented on my second floor the beer was drinkable for much longer before it would turn sour. Do you live in an older house? My old house was over 100 years old with no circulation of air and a damp basement which turns out was a breeding ground for whatever soured my beers. In my new house I have no problems here at all

Do you have a brew buddy that you can brew at their house? Or a family member? Again just thinking outside the box.

 

[mongoose33]

When I take a sample for checking my original gravity, I usually leave it on the counter for a week or so. The sample ferments just as fast as my wort, and this is with no yeast added to it!! There is obviously a fair amount of wild yeast in the air. Maybe this has something to do with it?

It's certainly possible, but the proportion of wild yeast in the wort compared to the hundred or two hundred billion yeast cells pitched into the word pales by comparison.

I would think that whatever effect wild yeast might have would be overwhelmed by the hundreds of billions of pitched yeast cells.

 

[mongoose33]

Anything is possible, what I ended up doing is fermenting in different parts of my house and found that if I fermented on my second floor the beer was drinkable for much longer before it would turn sour. Do you live in an older house? My old house was over 100 years old with no circulation of air and a damp basement which turns out was a breeding ground for whatever soured my beers. In my new house I have no problems here at all

Do you have a brew buddy that you can brew at their house? Or a family member? Again just thinking outside the box.

I suggested this early on in the thread, but it gained no traction. I can't help but wonder how anybody could brew 30 batches that turned out badly without seeking local help.

 

[mprowland]

I suggested this early on in the thread, but it gained no traction. I can't help but wonder how anybody could brew 30 batches that turned out badly without seeking local help.

I definitely looked for help locally. No one could find anything wrong with my process and when they tasted the beer, they couldn't tell what the bad taste was from. I also can't say that all were horrible. Some were decent at best but many of them I had to dump.

 

[mongoose33]

I definitely looked for help locally. No one could find anything wrong with my process and when they tasted the beer, they couldn't tell what the bad taste was from. I also can't say that all were horrible. Some were decent at best but many of them I had to dump.

Have you had someone go through the entire process with you? That's the thing you're missing--you're trying to do this digitally with bits and bytes, instead of analogue with someone local who is hands on.

I'm serious--have someone brew with you and see whether they can, with you watching and using your equipment, brew good beer.