Still making bad beer after 30+ batches.

[crusader1612]

Ok, I'm climbing back into this one.
Can you post information on the following:
* the last recipe that was crap including all percentages pitch rates starters hops etc.

* The equipment you currently have. (brewing equipment) what is attached to it, and any possible imperfection you can note

* Kegging equipment (tap type, tap number, line length, connections (plastic or steel) have you got clamps attached to them? how long is your shank?

* information on your process: how do you calculate yeast pitch rates, whats your yeast process (rehydration, starters etc.), how do you oxygenate the wort? do you whirlpool? what is your method for cooling? anything else that might be useful

* your fermentation method, temps, ramping temps when how long, how long your fermenting for etc.

* your process for packaging: do you use gravity? CO2? in through the dip tube or via stanard plastic tubing. are you purging your keg prior to filling? force carbing?

* cleaning and sanitation: what are you using, and how much of it? your process for this is useful.

for me its difficult to get a full picture and to nail down whats wrong without seeing a full picture.

 

[mprowland]

(I'm still looking forward to seeing your salt addition details later.)

Here are the salt additions with a bit of lactic acid to get the ph level down. I also verified that I am measuring "grams" and not "grains".

 

[McKnuckle]

You should be seeking a pH around 5.5 for a dark beer. All of your additions lower the pH. The mineral levels are modest and fine, but you don't need lactic acid and you should instead use baking soda to bring the pH up rather than down. I would consider 5.28 too low for such a beer, and a potential cause of harsh flavor perception.

 

[rodgerdodger]

Sorry if people have asked this before but how do you measure the temperature of your Mash? Are your thermometers calibrated? Compensated for altitude?

 

[mprowland]

You should be seeking a pH around 5.5 for a dark beer. All of your additions lower the pH. The mineral levels are modest and fine, but you don't need lactic acid and you should instead use baking soda to bring the pH up rather than down. I would consider 5.28 too low for such a beer, and a potential cause of harsh flavor perception.

This is partially why I want to try an extract version of this; to rule out ph all together. I really have no accurate way to test ph.

 

[mprowland]

Sorry if people have asked this before but how do you measure the temperature of your Mash? Are your thermometers calibrated? Compensated for altitude?

I ran into this problem early on with cheap thermometers; the temperature range would be 10 degrees between the different thermometers I had. I finally bought a decent one from Thermoworks(not the Pen). I tested it with ice water and boiling water, it was within a degree of each. I have not checked it at mash temps though.

 

[McKnuckle]

I have no accurate way to test it either! But I use the tools - brewers friend and Bru'n and a couple others - to estimate it. I aim for 5.5 if the beer is dark, 5.4 or slightly below for pale. I use the range between those values for all of my beers. I have brewed dark beers at 5.3 that I've really disliked. They've had sharp, harsh flavors that never mellowed. Once I aimed for a higher pH, they became good. I think some people are more sensitive to this than others. But I clearly am, and maybe you are too.

 

[mprowland]

I have no accurate way to test it either! But I use the tools - brewers friend and Bru'n and a couple others - to estimate it. I aim for 5.5 if the beer is dark, 5.4 or slightly below for pale. I use the range between those values for all of my beers. I have brewed dark beers at 5.3 that I've really disliked. They've had sharp, harsh flavors that never mellowed. Once I aimed for a higher pH, they became good. I think some people are more sensitive to this than others. But I clearly am, and maybe you are too.

I have made Stouts and Porters in the past where I had the ph up around 5.4-5.5. This was also before I controlled fermentation temperatures and watched out for oxidation. I'll have to readdress this in my next all-grain batch, seems very logical. My next batch (extract) may indirectly tell me that my ph is off. It should at least rule out everything on the mash side of things.

 

[Murphys_Law]

You said you and your buddy made the same recipe but did you guys also use the same water and water additions?

 

[mprowland]

You said you and your buddy made the same recipe but did you guys also use the same water and water additions?

We did not, he used straight well water with no additions. I would like to remind everyone though, I only started using treated RO water because all the various spring water and well water was giving me the same results. Treated RO, spring and well water have made no discernible effect on my dark beers;they've all been equally bad!

 

[rmchair]

Simplify.
Rinse your fermenter well after cleaning.
Brew a partial mash or extract. Just use some water from the grocery store. Forget about water additions.
On transfer day, explain to your buddy or your sig other to watch you like a hawk letting nothing you use touch the liquid that isn't sanitized.
Make sure you mix enough sanitizer.
Don't make a starter.
Make a low gravity porter with Nottingham dry yeast and wait two weeks. No secondary. Don't measure any gravities. Don't muck about in your wart at all.
Use a brand new siphon hose. (Don't forget to sanitize the inside.)
Rinse the hell out of your keg after cleaning.
Make sure you have a check valve on your gas lines so one keg doesn't pollute another.

 

[treacheroustexan]

What do you use to clean? I used to just use really hot water and made pretty bad beer. When I switched to oxy clean all of my beers have been nothing but great.

 

[kh54s10]

You might consider a step backward. Use your municipal water, run it through a filter, Brita, Pur or some other charcoal filter. Treat with a Campden tablet if there is chlorine or Chloramine in the water. Brew without any other additions and see what happens. I have only used adjustments on a few of my beers. They have not been significantly better than the rest that got no adjustments.

Again, I admire your perseverance. If I brewed that many poor beers I would have given up long ago. I am still perplexed. It seems you have taken all the right steps to figure this out. I have no idea. Especially since I have done 10% of the adjustments that you have and get a rare mediocre batch. And only 2 bad beers in 95+???

 

[LostArtBrewer]

Have you tried purging O2 from the headspace in the keg, right after the beer has been transferred?

 

[PlexVector]

Don't worry: When we get to 50 pages the automated Kaizen kicks in, so all problems get fixed...it's quality magic...just below smudging and chicken feet.

I really want you to figure this out. My empathy and prayers go with you brother...

 

[broot]

Actually I do, I use it very liberally and saturate EVERYTHING with it. I use roughly 1/4 teaspoon per quart of water. I usually use the entire bottle on a brew day. I'll definitely try filling up a bucket next time.

it might be the amount of starsan you use. mix 1 oz with 5 gal. of water.

 

[jmos]

+1 on broot's observation.

I make a 5gal batch of Starsan and use it for a number of batches, then toss it and make another. That's what, an ounce of concentrate per 5 batches (I forget the dilution ratio at the moment) - don't know what size bottle your going through per brew, but maybe it's enough to effect the process/taste. That would explain why all your equipment changes haven't fixed the issue.

Good luck, hope you find the problem.

 

[mprowland]

Have you tried purging O2 from the headspace in the keg, right after the beer has been transferred?

(I purge the keg before and after I transfer.)

I may have spoken too soon. Just 3 days ago, there was a distinct bitterness on the back-end that covered up most of the wanted flavors. I tried it today and the bitterness is half of what it was. Normally when I make a dark beer, the taste gets worse with time. So far, this one seems to be getting better. It's still not where I want it, but maybe time will get it there. Maybe increasing the ph will get it there?
I've purchased everything to make the extract version of this recipe. I'm anxious to see if there's an improvement. Thank you for everyone's help. I've used A LOT of the advice given to me.

 

[daveMN]

I've tried to keep up with this thread over the last year, and finally had an idea for something that I don't think has come up. One of the things that Gordon Strong does is to hold off adding dark grains until he's near the end of the mash. He does this to avoid astringency from darker grains. Since you're having more "bitterness" problems with darker beers, this may something that I don't think has been suggested yet and could be worth trying.

 

[IslandLizard]

I've tried to keep up with this thread over the last year, and finally had an idea for something that I don't think has come up. One of the things that Gordon Strong does is to hold off adding dark grains until he's near the end of the mash. He does this to avoid astringency from darker grains. Since you're having more "bitterness" problems with darker beers, this may something that I don't think has been suggested yet and could be worth trying.

I'd go the next level, since I don't believe in complete extraction during 2 (batch) sparges. Adding right before the sparge may work when fly sparging for an hour, which many homebrewers don't do.

I steep (and sparge) my dark grains @150F outside the mash and add the black potion to the main wort after the boil, after it has chilled to around 160-170F. So the dark wort never sees a boil. I hate boiled coffee.

 

[sheephrdr]

I used to get a wet cardboard aftertaste in most of my beers .. I expect from all the transferring etc secondary then to bottle bucket.. ever since ive switched to just primary then transfer to keg.. no more off flavour..

always learning something new, always boiled with lid 3/4 on brew pot, just learned yesterday I should have lid off.. will try next time and see if any better beer

 

[Zwoods]

So, I live in East Lansing and have successfully brewed with regular tap water; I brew all grain and have had good results. If you want, I could possibly help you pin point your off flavors. I am always willing to help a fellow homebrewer; if you would like another opinion let me know.

 

[Rhaop]

My vote is use unaltered RO for the extract batch(make sure its fresh), sanitize a pack of s-05, direct pitch and keep fermenter around 65, should be fail proof, if you still get a flavor it would have to be in the cold side anyone disagree?

 

[jimmypop13]

My first few batches were awful too and you're using the exact thing that ruined all mine so I'm really hoping I can solve your issue. Star-san. Either switch to a different sanitizer or rinse it all off after you give it time to sanitize. Everyone told me dont fear the foam so I never rinsed it and every beer had this horrible horrible aftertaste to it. Especially after bottling. I would soak all my bottles in a big bucket of star San and the horrible flavor intensified in the bottle. Now everything that touches star San, including the bottles, gets washed back out with water and my nasty batch-ruining off flavor is gone!
Hope this helps!

 

[thekraken]

My first few batches were awful too and you're using the exact thing that ruined all mine so I'm really hoping I can solve your issue. Star-san. Either switch to a different sanitizer or rinse it all off after you give it time to sanitize. Everyone told me dont fear the foam so I never rinsed it and every beer had this horrible horrible aftertaste to it. Especially after bottling. I would soak all my bottles in a big bucket of star San and the horrible flavor intensified in the bottle. Now everything that touches star San, including the bottles, gets washed back out with water and my nasty batch-ruining off flavor is gone!
Hope this helps!

That's an interesting observation. I was going to suggest to OP that they might switch up sanitation a little, though probably for slightly different reasons. @mabrungard suggests in various other threads that using different sanitizers from time to time is a good idea, and he has switched to using Iodophor primarily.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=601403&page=2

 

[jimmypop13]

Delete

 

[jimmypop13]

That's an interesting observation. I was going to suggest to OP that they might switch up sanitation a little, though probably for slightly different reasons. @mabrungard suggests in various other threads that using different sanitizers from time to time is a good idea, and he has switched to using Iodophor primarily.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=601403&page=2

Thanks. I think I will try IO Star or BTF Iodophor on my next batch. I'd rather find something that works as no rinse than keep rinsing off star san

 

[Rhaop]

My first few batches were awful too and you're using the exact thing that ruined all mine so I'm really hoping I can solve your issue. Star-san. Either switch to a different sanitizer or rinse it all off after you give it time to sanitize. Everyone told me dont fear the foam so I never rinsed it and every beer had this horrible horrible aftertaste to it. Especially after bottling. I would soak all my bottles in a big bucket of star San and the horrible flavor intensified in the bottle. Now everything that touches star San, including the bottles, gets washed back out with water and my nasty batch-ruining off flavor is gone!
Hope this helps!

I've never noticed any off flavors i could contribute to star san, i use a little less then a 1/4oz for a gallon maybe your ratio of star san to water was too high? That's a good one

 

[crusader1612]

My first few batches were awful too and you're using the exact thing that ruined all mine so I'm really hoping I can solve your issue. Star-san. Either switch to a different sanitizer or rinse it all off after you give it time to sanitize. Everyone told me dont fear the foam so I never rinsed it and every beer had this horrible horrible aftertaste to it. Especially after bottling. I would soak all my bottles in a big bucket of star San and the horrible flavor intensified in the bottle. Now everything that touches star San, including the bottles, gets washed back out with water and my nasty batch-ruining off flavor is gone!
Hope this helps!

See i had the opposite - i rinsed my starsan off once for some unknown reason, and it got infected.

 

[jimmypop13]

I've never noticed any off flavors i could contribute to star san, i use a little less then a 1/4oz for a gallon maybe your ratio of star san to water was too high? That's a good one

It could be the water in my area. I know it was never clear by the time I was done using it in a 6gallon bucket to soak all my bottles at first so I ended up doing probably 1.5x the amount hoping that would help. I only was able to narrow down star-san as the culprit to my off flavor because I always brewed with a buddy and the only difference in our process was I used Star San and he used 1-step. All his beers were missing the nasty aftertaste mine had so that's when I started rinsing off the star San.