steep and partial mashing - the starches?

[ChickenSoop]

I understand the different processes of steeping and partial mashing, so a question:

When you steep, and you get starches (instead of sugar when mashing) - what happens to the starches? Do the starches remain unfermented and end up giving flavor to the ale?

Some of my steeped beers have a bit of a sweetly taste I do not like. I was thinking maybe starch is doing this and a partial mash will fix this unwanted sweetly taste.

 

[Jaybird]

I think to make a better judge; we will need some more 411.
List the grains, time and temps that you used. Maybe just the entire recipe.
But to answer your question as best as I can. Yes you end up with some unconverted starch. The question is, are the grains you steeped ever going to convert anyway, even in a mash, even when you do a partial you need some sort of base grain to assist in the converting process, ya know for those hard to convert grains. The term is eluding me at the moment.

 

[ChickenSoop]

I made Haus Pale Ale, Centennial Blond, extract/seeped versions as posted, with Vienna malt steeped.

At first I though it was the Vienna malt giving off a sweetness, but then I made a cream ale with steeped corn (no vienna) and it had that same sweetness. It's drinkable, but not enjoyable.

Steeping target 153F, but actually it ranges from 150-158F, using a digital themometer on the stovetop, cotton grainbags.

The only thing in common is they are all steeped, and I am using US-05 yeast.

I'll switch to partial mashes and change the US-05 to 1056 and see if that knocks out the sweetness, unless there is anything else i might be missing?

On my darker (steeped) brews I don't have any sweetness problem, only these lighter beers. But the darker brews use 1056 and 1187 yeasts. All my dark beers are perfect.

 

[Kauai_Kahuna]

I would try to swap out the yeast, WLP001 does seem to finish a lot cleaner and dryer for me than SAFALE 05, but maybe it's just my taste buds.

 

[Kaiser]

A mash is a steep in which you have enzymatic activity. To get that you need to be in a sufficient temp range (150-160f is fine), the water grist ratio shouldn't be too thin (1.5-2 qt/lb is good), and there should be a sufficient ratio of enzymatically active base malt. Vienna should be able to convert itself. How much water did you use and what were the grains you steeped?

Unconverted starch is easily detected with some iodine solution by doing an iodine test (http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?title=Starch_Test)

Kai

 

[NHBeerDude]

US-05 will give you a citrusy sweet flavor. Change your yeast to US-04.

 

[ChickenSoop]

A mash is a steep in which you have enzymatic activity. To get that you need to be in a sufficient temp range (150-160f is fine), the water grist ratio shouldn't be too thin (1.5-2 qt/lb is good), and there should be a sufficient ratio of enzymatically active base malt. Vienna should be able to convert itself. How much water did you use and what were the grains you steeped?

All done to recipe and BeerSmith recommended water amounts. Temperatures varied 150-158F.

Beer 1:
2 lbs vienna
0.5 lbs caramel-10L
at 150F for 60m, 3.5 qt

Beer 2:
0.5 lbs vienna
0.5 lbs caramel 10L
0.75 lbs cara-pils
at 150F for 60m, 2.2 qt

Beer 3:
2 lbs flaked corn
0.75 lbs cara
at 154F for 60m, 3.5 qt

All used US05 yeast, and they had that same similar background offtaste sweetness. It is not a strong off-taste, just a sweet background taste I don't like.

All aged 6 weeks in bottles, and sweetness never faded up to 18 weeks in bottle. OG/FG on were on target, except Beer 3 was about 20% low on OG and FG. Beer look nice and clear.

So I'll switch yeast and do partial mashes, unless there appears to be something I'm missing or doing wrong.

 

[Yooper]

Beer #1 recipe is already a partial mash- Vienna malt is a base malt and converts if the temperature and mash thickness is good.

Beer #2 is nearly a partial mash- in order to get the best in enzymatic activity, though, try to have a base malt equal to the amount of pounds of specialty grains.

Beer #3 is starch city. You need a base malt to convert the corn.

 

[Joos]

US-05 will give you a citrusy sweet flavor. Change your yeast to US-04.

I have to disagree there.S-05 is a very neutral yeast.No imparted flavors IMO anyway.S-04 is an english ale yeast that imparts a bit of a bready flavor.To the OP I think your question has already been answered.It may not be an option ,but if you really want to lower the "sweetness" go on to the PM then AG.You'll have a lot more control over the maltiness.With extract you get whatever the maltsters already did for you.

 

[ChickenSoop]

Thanks, the quality of the LME makes sense. I can easily do partial mashes with my equipment, so I'll try that to see if it knocks down that sweetness.

AG is in the future, but probably a few years down the road due to lack of time. I'd like to nail down my favorite homebrews first, before changing over to AG. Then, I'll decide if I want to do 5 gallon or 10 gallon batches when I do switch to AG. Then comes the kegs ....

 

[Vuarra]

Sorry to break it to you, Soop, but the difference between mini-mash and all-grain is night and day; somewhat akin to buying a box of Duncan Hines and supplying your own eggs, and making the birthday cake from flour and sugar. You may like one better, but you'll probably never make one into the other, unless you're a professional.

 

[Joos]

Sorry to break it to you, Soop, but the difference between mini-mash and all-grain is night and day; somewhat akin to buying a box of Duncan Hines and supplying your own eggs, and making the birthday cake from flour and sugar. You may like one better, but you'll probably never make one into the other, unless you're a professional.

You think so?I did PMs for a while which is pretty much just AG with an extrat addition.I dunno different strokes for different folks I guess.I think it's pretty easy though.

 

[Vuarra]

I could just be becoming an elitist. I just love the smell of the grains while they're mashing.