Bread wine?

[lacto]

When I make Essene bread (wheat soaked sprouted mashed and cooked in covered cast iron pan) the end result is a slightly sticky (caramelized sucrose?) slightly sweet soft but heavily textured bread.

I was wondering what would happen if I only partially cook it, add water to make a sort of porridge,
then add sugar or honey, then cool it and add yeast ... after straining it would I get a bread wine?

I ask this also because of having made east European kvass, which is made from bread to produce a very lightly alcoholic beverage. I know that this fermentation process is meant to make vinegar (ascetic acid) as well, but it is a very pleasant drink if caught at the right moment. So is there any similarity between my idea and kvass?

 

[lacto]

OK ... No takers ...so I am on my own.

So I will tell you what's happening.

This is very strange. After 7 days this tastes like a fizzy smooth slightly alcoholic orange drink! So I may let it rest for a week or so to see if the yeast has had its fill, and the orange flavour has changed.

Would this be called a gruit?

 

[Kickass]

Sorry, I have nothing of value to add. Although I have no clue what you’re making or how it’s going to turn out, I’m interested in the results. You’ve posted some pretty unorthodox (at least to me) ideas and they’re fun to read.

 

[Rish]

Gruit traditionally is beer that had local plants and/or herbs so I'd no although you could add some to make it more gruit-like. Good luck!

 

[hotbeer]

OK ... No takers ...so I am on my own.

Well you are in the <Home Brewing Beer>< Beginners Beer Brewing Forum> And what you are talking about isn't beer. Maybe we're too stuffy and this is just too far out there for most of us.
Maybe you should look further down the homepage. Maybe in the <Wine, Mead, Cider & Sake> section or further down in the <Food and Beverage> section.

Though I realize that there isn't as much traffic in those sections.

But interesting... did it taste like something you'd want to make again?

 

[Beernik]

Sugar is fermentable.
Honey is fermentable.
Wheat can be made fermentable if mashed properly.

You’ll get something. I don’t know how it will taste or what to call it.

 

[Andres Falconer]

This sounds to me like a rudimentary approach to making beer, and I would be very interested in seeing the result. You started with grain. You malted it. You mashed, you fermented. It’s beer. Kvass is typically made with rye bread and added sugar (or honey), sometimes with brewer’s or bread yeast. What you’re doing seems closer to a Lithuanian keptinis (beer made from a messy bread cake) - look it up. I’ve tried a few and they can be very good!

 

[lacto]

This sounds to me like a rudimentary approach to making beer, and I would be very interested in seeing the result. You started with grain. You malted it. You mashed, you fermented. It’s beer. Kvass is typically made with rye bread and added sugar (or honey), sometimes with brewer’s or bread yeast. What you’re doing seems closer to a Lithuanian keptinis (beer made from a messy bread cake) - look it up. I’ve tried a few and they can be very good!

Incredible! Thanks for such an encouraging reply. The online info on keptinis is a bit patchy but indeed sounds similar to the brew that seems to be happening at the moment. I think the end result may have some interesting potentials. I'll certainly update this as it happens ...

 

[dmtaylor]

You'll be making a form of kvass. Or keptinis, which I know less about, but have heard of it. I have made kvass. It was interesting but not really to my liking (maybe it was my fault!?).

For anyone interested... I do love gruit ale, currently have one on tap with the traditional herbs and no hops, which turned out excellent as usual. It recently won a 1st place in competition as a saison w/ fruit (lemon) and herbs. It is tart, mildly herbal, and goes down easy on a warm late spring/summer day.

 

[lacto]

So, leptinis it is! (Well, my take on what I have read).

Day one
Seeing as I cannot understand the jargon of any of the online recipes I am going to wing it. I am not a seasoned brewer - indeed I feel like one who is not even a novice, but, hey, let's have some fun and see if I can produce something that does not poison me or actually kill me!

I decided to make about 3 or 4 liters, so I am guessing 750 grams of wheat berries. They are now soaking overnight. Tomorrow I will begin the 2 to 3 day sprouting.

I intend to use a one size fits all wine yeast ... mainly because that is all I have (and I do not want to use bread yeast for this). I will eventually make a roasted chicory root tea with perhaps a few added chicory leaves for bitterness. Someone mentioned adding rolled oats for a slight creamy note so I am considering that - we shall wait and see what the mash tastes like ...

 

[Flagman Faigen]

Greetings, everyone! Its helpful for me!

 

[lacto]

So, leptinis it is! (Well, my take on what I have read).

Day one
Seeing as I cannot understand the jargon of any of the online recipes I am going to wing it. I am not a seasoned brewer - indeed I feel like one who is not even a novice, but, hey, let's have some fun and see if I can produce something that does not poison me or actually kill me!

I decided to make about 3 or 4 liters, so I am guessing 750 grams of wheat berries. They are now soaking overnight. Tomorrow I will begin the 2 to 3 day sprouting.

I intend to use a one size fits all wine yeast ... mainly because that is all I have (and I do not want to use bread yeast for this). I will eventually make a roasted chicory root tea with perhaps a few added chicory leaves for bitterness. Someone mentioned adding rolled oats for a slight creamy note so I am considering that - we shall wait and see what the mash tastes like ...

 

[lacto]

Day 2, 3, and 4
Wheat berries sprouted well, mashed them, stuck them in a ceramic casserole dish and into gas mark 8 for 1 hour 10 minutes covered, then 25 minutes uncovered to reveal dark caramelized edges, deglazed dish and added caramel edge liquid and chicory tea and a liter of water - and mashed it into thin porridge. Rested a couple of hours, strained it all producing dark chocolate coloured wort. Added yeast then airlock. I will let it do it's stuff for the next 4 or so days, and then tell you what the result is. I tasted before airlocking and found it to be surprisingly sweet and toffee tasting ...

 

[Jack_0106]

Day 2, 3, and 4
Wheat berries sprouted well, mashed them, stuck them in a ceramic casserole dish and into gas mark 8 for 1 hour 10 minutes covered, then 25 minutes uncovered to reveal dark caramelized edges, deglazed dish and added caramel edge liquid and chicory tea and a liter of water - and mashed it into thin porridge. Rested a couple of hours, strained it all producing dark chocolate coloured wort. Added yeast then airlock. I will let it do it's stuff for the next 4 or so days, and then tell you what the result is. I tasted before airlocking and found it to be surprisingly sweet and toffee tasting ...

you're going places Lacto, interested in the end result!

 

[lacto]

Day 5
I am not what has happened here ... the ferment seems to have gone from foamy to flatline. My guess is there is not enough sugar. So I have added 100g canne plus 50g treacle ...

 

[Andres Falconer]

Foamy to flat in 24 or 48 hours is not unusual. Vigorous initial fermentation often quickly gives way to a more quiet phase. I wouldn’t touch it anymore until fermented through. Check the temperature range of the yeast you’ve chosen.

 

[DBhomebrew]

@lacto, how are measuring gravity? Are you?

 

[lacto]

@lacto, how are measuring gravity? Are you?

By eye, of course!!

...Ok I mean I am not measuring gravity.

 

[DBhomebrew]

You're going to want to start measuring gravities.

Even if you don't care what the ABV is, measuring gravity is the only way to keep tabs on the progress of the ferment. Hydrometer or refractometer. There are pros and cons to both, but either will do the job each has their set of best practices.

 

[mashpaddled]

So, leptinis it is! (Well, my take on what I have read).

Day one
Seeing as I cannot understand the jargon of any of the online recipes I am going to wing it. I am not a seasoned brewer - indeed I feel like one who is not even a novice, but, hey, let's have some fun and see if I can produce something that does not poison me or actually kill me!

I decided to make about 3 or 4 liters, so I am guessing 750 grams of wheat berries. They are now soaking overnight. Tomorrow I will begin the 2 to 3 day sprouting.

I intend to use a one size fits all wine yeast ... mainly because that is all I have (and I do not want to use bread yeast for this). I will eventually make a roasted chicory root tea with perhaps a few added chicory leaves for bitterness. Someone mentioned adding rolled oats for a slight creamy note so I am considering that - we shall wait and see what the mash tastes like ...

This is pretty close to a keptinis rather than a kvass. In a keptinis you're toasting sugars converted in a mash rather than a kvass where you're mashing toasted starch in the form of a solid bread loaf. I've made a keptinis once, which is an extremely messy process if you let the baking mash bubble out of the pan.

The sprouted wheat will convert soluble starches as long as you give it enough time at suitable temperatures. I'm not familiar enough with the technical details of sprouting wheat to know how effectively you extract starch from sprouted grain or whether you process sends you into the right temperature range to effectively convert the starches to sugar before heating it to the point the enzymes are denatured by heat. From what you describe later on, it sounds like there is some degree of conversion. Without milling the grain (I'm not sure how you could with this process) you'll never have the same starch release as a typical beer but that is just part of your process. Maybe the long soak and sprouting helps.

In a keptinis it is common to boil hops separately and add them at some point in the process to balance out the sweetness. If you taste the fermented product and find it too sweet, you can do the same by boiling hops for half an hour, let it cool, strain and add it to the then beer. If you like it as is, then maybe calling it a bread wine is more accurate.

Day 5
I am not what has happened here ... the ferment seems to have gone from foamy to flatline. My guess is there is not enough sugar. So I have added 100g canne plus 50g treacle ...

Wine yeast generally are poor converters of complex sugars like maltose produced from grain. Once they ferment out the simple sugars floating around, they will leave the rest behind. I know you're committed to the idea of a wine here, but you may find the beverage is too sweet if you leave all the malt sugars behind. Adding a beer or bread yeast doesn't make it a beer. Unless you add hops or other bittering agents it's really not beer, anyway.

 

[lacto]

This is pretty close to a keptinis rather than a kvass. In a keptinis you're toasting sugars converted in a mash rather than a kvass where you're mashing toasted starch in the form of a solid bread loaf. I've made a keptinis once, which is an extremely messy process if you let the baking mash bubble out of the pan.

The sprouted wheat will convert soluble starches as long as you give it enough time at suitable temperatures. I'm not familiar enough with the technical details of sprouting wheat to know how effectively you extract starch from sprouted grain or whether you process sends you into the right temperature range to effectively convert the starches to sugar before heating it to the point the enzymes are denatured by heat. From what you describe later on, it sounds like there is some degree of conversion. Without milling the grain (I'm not sure how you could with this process) you'll never have the same starch release as a typical beer but that is just part of your process. Maybe the long soak and sprouting helps.

In a keptinis it is common to boil hops separately and add them at some point in the process to balance out the sweetness. If you taste the fermented product and find it too sweet, you can do the same by boiling hops for half an hour, let it cool, strain and add it to the then beer. If you like it as is, then maybe calling it a bread wine is more accurate.



Wine yeast generally are poor converters of complex sugars like maltose produced from grain. Once they ferment out the simple sugars floating around, they will leave the rest behind. I know you're committed to the idea of a wine here, but you may find the beverage is too sweet if you leave all the malt sugars behind. Adding a beer or bread yeast doesn't make it a beer. Unless you add hops or other bittering agents it's really not beer, anyway.

Other bittering agents? Does a handful of chicory leaves count? These certainly add a splendid bitterness from what I have made before (which was a herbal tonic).

 

[mashpaddled]

Other bittering agents? Does a handful of chicory leaves count? These certainly add a splendid bitterness from what I have made before (which was a herbal tonic).

If it's balancing sweetness with bitterness, then sure it counts. I don't have any personal experience using chicory in beer. Sounds like you know better than I would. Depending on your vision for the beverage, you may find a good balance between the unfermented sugar and bitterness. I would be concerned that it may be intensely sweet and even trying to balance it out with bitterness it's still going to be syrupy. You'll have to let your taste buds answer that question.

If you have a lot of otherwise fermentable sugars remaining when you package it, be careful about how you store bottles. You are leaving behind a lot of food for wild yeast and bacteria that can ferment out the sugars and create explosive bottles.

 

[lacto]

Yes, I am aware of this and I am hoping that once the hydrometer arrives I will be able to control the appropriate sugar amounts - I hope!

 

[lacto]

It has been 6 days in the airlock and has fermented rather gently (not lots of bubbles but enough to inform me that something is happening). I decided to bottle the brew on Sunday. Today I could not resist a little taste.

Wow! What a surprise! It tastes delicious - a robust malty/treacly flavour tempered by a fruity sharpness. This is not beer, but one that is incredibly more-ish!

If I can control my desire to drink all of it in one go then the sugar note may reduce to allow the malty bitterness to come through and give more beer like flavour.

I will definitely do this again.

I will let you know what the last drop tastes like.

 

[DBhomebrew]

6 days? How did you confirm fermentation was finished? Put another way, have you effectively protected yourself from...

explosive bottles.

 

[lacto]

That is a very good question. Basically, when I bottled the brew I waited until about 12 hours then 'burped' each bottle. The strange thing is that three of the bottles give a little hiss but nothing happened with fourth one. Then the following day I repeated the process with the results being the same ... no explosive bottles are here.Today I have left the remaining three working bottles for a little longer. Tomorrow I should check on them again .. perhaps.