Stay with BIAB... Or move on to "Regular" all grain brewing?

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Mongoose I’ve been following your journey with interest and am hoping the side by side you eventually do will compare easy LODO to full LODO. You make the call on what is easy but I’m thinking Camden and brewtan b vs full hot side LODO with DO water, mash cap, wet milling, under letting who knows what else. Then fill easy LODO with a closed transfer into purged (push starsan out with CO2) keg and force carb while full LODO gets spunded for carbonation.

Testing will be difficult. Preferably need to triangle test with panel blinded to the variable. But frankly if difference is at edge of detectability I think you will have answered your original question.

I feel like I want to produce a long and complicated answer to this....in part, because I believe when we confront new ideas like this, deciding what is "true" can be very difficult. And it is very much so with this.

But I'll try to keep it short. Some of this is me trying to organize my ideas and see what others think of them.

I'm trained as a scientist. I'd like to think I'm a pretty good one. If you really understand science, you understand the need to eliminate alternative explanations of events you're trying to explain. Almost all occupations that involve judgment must confront this. Educator: why can't Johnny read? Police Detective: who committed the crime? Engineer: Why did the bridge collapse? In each case, there are multiple "theories" that could explain the results, and the task is to eliminate ones that don't work. Educator: does Johnny have vision problems? No? Must be something else. Detective: suspect "A" has an ironclad alibi; must be someone else. Engineer: wind load? It wasn't windy at the time. Must be something else.

So the name of the game is to isolate the cause and tie it to the effect.

I think it's especially difficult to do this in beer unless you have a pretty decent setup--not impossible, but difficult. To assess changes in outcome--flavors!--you have to isolate the changes in process that you think you're tying to the change in outcome. I won't go into this as I'm certain you could supply them yourself.

So let's assume, though, that the process is ironclad. Then you get to assessing the outcome, i.e., how the beer tastes. I'm increasingly appreciative of how difficult that is, at some objective level, because we're using human beings as testers whose tasting may or may not be objective or even reproducible.

BTW, I'm not a fan of triangle tests unless there are some preconditions, including those who are just guessing--and through luck get it right--don't assess the differences in flavors. I also object to no controlling what people were eating or drinking just prior to testing, I don't know to whom the samples generalize, and typically the sample sizes are small. And even then, I think the results are misstated such as when people say, if a significant number of tasters can isolate the odd-one-out, that the sample can reliably identify the different beer. Well, some tasters did it ONCE, most tasters typically got it wrong, and nowhere is there a duplicate of the test to see if tasters truly, over perhaps a period of days, produce the same outcome. Not my definition of reliability.

But I digress.

When it comes to tasting the difference, am I a reliable taster? I don't have a great palate. I have a friend who can pick out flavors others can't, and I rely on him to tell me if there are off-flavors in my beer. Take an effect like oxidation. Is it there? Can I tell? If i can't tell any difference, is it that there is no difference, or just that my measuring instrument--my palate--just isn't discriminating enough?

So with comparing lodo versus no lodo, or abbreviated lodo with BIAB versus full bore lodo, what does a "tastes the same to me" result mean? That they are the same? Or that I simply can't taste the difference whereas you, having a better palate, can pick out differences?

This is partly why I've been so focused on process--I have to feel comfortable that the process is nailed down, otherwise I have a huge alternative explanation for the results.

**********

Some of this for me seems truly existential. What does it mean to produce "great" beer? How can one tell? What indicators should be used? In the HOPS book, the author notes there some people who can't perceive certain hop flavors. What if people tasting it can't tell it has flaws? Does that matter? How many people need to taste it to gain confidence in the beer?

I've come back to what I think a lot of brewers do: they brew for their own tastes first. I want to brew beer *I* want to drink, and it's tuned to what I like. But I'd also love to know I've nailed the process and recipe, and for that I need other people.

I'm going to start entering my beers in some competitions, see what happens. Won a small comp here with my Pilsner brewed with lodo techniques. My friend with the great palate thinks it's fabulous. Irony, that: Pilsners aren't near the top of my personal list but if it's really, really good, should I brew it for others?

And even then....how much of like/dislike of a beer is style? I don't care for Belgians. That flavor the yeast produces? No thank you. But I can actually taste one and assess it, even though I don't like it. So if someone doesn't like my beer, is it bad, or is it that like me with Belgians, they just don't care for the style?

I'm using one of the most simple measures of "quality:" do people have a second one? Anybody can, and does, lie about a beer when asked about whether it's good or they like it. But to me, the best measure is this: do they have another?

So when people have a second, and a third, and there are other options available, to me that's the best sign the beer is good, apart from what I think of it.

Very long, I know. So much for keeping it short. Imagine if I had not limited myself!

YMMV. Comments as always welcome.
 
There are replies to each point in red in the quote above. Click on it to see them.

It may be that sparging adds about 15 minutes to my day or it might be that you are more diligent than I am. I too could take that half hour off my time. That and many of the other things listed are not a BIAB thing for time saving.

I am not poo-pooing BIAB. I do it sometimes. I set up my 3 tier gravity system before BIAB took off. I don't have a good solution for a hoist. I don't need to save those possible 15 minutes if they are actual savings. So I prefer my 3 vessel brewing. Maybe some day.

If you're happy doing what you're doing, and the beer is good, then you have nothing to defend to anyone else. That goes for everyone.
 
If you're happy doing what you're doing, and the beer is good, thenmore you have nothing to defend to anyone else. That goes for everyone.

I am not meaning to sound defensive. Since so often BIAB is said to be a time saver, I asked where the time savings comes in comparing BIAB to traditional three vessel methods. It seems it is only the sparge and depending on how BIAB is done that might not even be different. The long post listed a lot of things that anyone can, and most do, to shorten brew day.

Again, I started with 3 vessel before BIAB became popular. I have my brew area set up pretty permanently so getting out more equipment and putting it away doesn't figure into the picture.

BIAB is great, I do it sometimes but I am not really set up for it.
My 3 tier gravity fed system is dialed in and best for me at this time.
I would love to go with an electric 3 vessel herms.
Have looked at the idea of 2 vessel electric.
May end up with something like the Grainfather.

Since I now live in Florida and do not really enjoy brewing next to a 50,000 BTU propane burner I would like to move inside to an air conditioned brew room. That is a ways in the future though. Unless I win the Powerball.....

That is also what is great about this hobby there are so many ways to brew great beer!
 
I thought for sure this was going to say "That is also what is great about Powerball...".

Powerball has not been great to me. I have been playing it since the early days when the odd were much more favorable and I don't think I have won the lowest amount at the odds listed.
 
If you do a lot of step mashing, or plan to do so, then I agree that a recirculating rig would be an upgrade.

I'm kind of confused by your write-up, are you not doing a mashout? If you are, are you heating a separate pot then dumping it into your mash to bring it up to 170?
 
I’ve been brewing 10 gal batches for 4 years. With a insulated cooler for a mash tun and a keggle for my boil pot. After too many stuck sparges with a braided sleeve,
I moved onto BIAB. I use the bag for mashing and sparging only. Very happy with the results, and my efficiency has gone up tremendously. I would say your beer won’t “taste better” by upgrading. It’s just a matter of preference.
 
I’ve been brewing 10 gal batches for 4 years. With a insulated cooler for a mash tun and a keggle for my boil pot. After too many stuck sparges with a braided sleeve,
I moved onto BIAB. I use the bag for mashing and sparging only. Very happy with the results, and my efficiency has gone up tremendously. I would say your beer won’t “taste better” by upgrading. It’s just a matter of preference.

To get technical, this is not really BIAB. It is Mash in a bag. BIAB is all done in the same vessel.
 
I'm kind of confused by your write-up, are you not doing a mashout? If you are, are you heating a separate pot then dumping it into your mash to bring it up to 170?

At the end of the mash I raise the grain bag and immediately fire the burner to begin bringing the wort to a boil. The transition to 170F (and above) happens while the grain bag is draining into the kettle.

There is no separate pot. I use a single vessel.

IMG_20180209_161606_751.jpg
 
At the end of the mash I raise the grain bag and immediately fire the burner to begin bringing the wort to a boil. The transition to 170F (and above) happens while the grain bag is draining into the kettle.

There is no separate pot. I use a single vessel.

View attachment 578157

Good setup. You’re doing it right. With a 10 gal pot, you’re gonna be sticking with 5 gal batches (or maybe 6-7gal). I like the ease and simplicity of what you have going on. Plus the easy cleanup makes it worthwhile. All home brewers know the frustration of washing and cleaning everything after brew day.

Upgrading to a 2 or 3 vessel system isn’t going to change the beer much, unless you like doing dishes or you’re wanting to do larger batches. I have a 15 gal pot for boiling and a 10 gal cooler I use for mashing. But I make 10 gal batches.

Making wort isn’t hard. As others have said, I would focus more on fermentation control (build your own fermentation chamber with an stc-1000 temp control!) or buying a stir plate to make yeast starters. That’s what will make your beer really shine.
 
...With a 10 gal pot, you’re gonna be sticking with 5 gal batches (or maybe 6-7gal)...

That's a 15gal pot in that photo, so I have room to make larger batches if I feel the need. But the main reason I bought a 15gal pot for 5gal batches is that I didn't want to have to worry about boilovers.

...focus more on fermentation control (build your own fermentation chamber with an stc-1000 temp control!) or buying a stir plate to make yeast starters. That’s what will make your beer really shine.

That's good advice for any brewer. I have both a full size refrigerator and a large(ish) wine fridge I've setup with temp controllers.

I had fun building a really nice stir plate case out of some walnut I had leftover from another project. The speed control and the magnets I used worked out really well. I may post that soon in the DIY forum.
 
I think anyone who "masters" their system no matter what their system is, will make excellent beer. It's all about dialing your system in and knowing how it will respond in different gravity beers and how to get the most out of it. For me I have a three vessel e-herms and I love how I can dial in the mash temps and keep it there flawlessly. But this just makes great sugar water. After awhile anyone can make great sugar water. It's nailing down the fermentation temps, and keeping the yeast happy and how you package the beer without oxidation, that makes fabulous beer. I always use liquid yeast and make a yeast starter and use yeast nutrient both in the starter and in the boil kettle. I also have great control over fermentation temps. Obviously you have to have great sanitation practices, but whether you BIAB or Cooler, 2 vessel or 3 vessel, master your system and take care of your yeast and fermentation temps! Just my two cents....

John
 
Let me offer a few quips.

You brew you
Beer not gear

If I could go back and apply those 2 statements I would have more and better beer, and lot more Money
 
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