Stay with BIAB... Or move on to "Regular" all grain brewing?

[Washington_Brewologist]

Due to space and inexperience, I quickly gravitated towards the BIAB method and grabbed myself a 10-gallon kettle and a bayou classic burner. I have about 10 brew days with the BIAB system under my belt and can't complain about the results.

My question is one that most homebrewers probably go through.

Now that I have more space and a few extra bucks on my hands, should I step up my brewlab with fitted coolers like I see a lot of homebrewers using?

What are the real differences in the final product when making a beer this way as opposed to BIAB?

 

[alestateyall]

Coolers add complexity and more cleanup, but, don’t make the beer taste better. You might get better efficiency, but, the cost of the coolers and associated hardware can pay for a lot of grain.

I have brewed batch sparge, fly sparge, and BIAB. I always loved the simplicity of BIAB.

That being said, I succumbed to the urge to upgrade and bought a Grainfather. So, there’s that.

 

[hopjuice_71]

Whoa, alestateyall.. ..you must be me.. ..sounds identical to my evolution as a brewer over the last 25 years. Only 1 vessel to clean up is hard to beat.

Cheers

 

[mcgimpkins]

What are the real differences in the final product when making a beer this way as opposed to BIAB?

Similar the others, I have to state, I enjoy BIAB. If you wanted to upgrade I would go to eBIAB, and have something that recirculates, holds temps, and can easily be used to mash out with.

In the past I have used a cooler, and 3 vessel system. If you're looking to spend money on making your beer really good, I would recommend focusing more on fermentation and temp control over the actual brewing process.

 

[Transamguy77]

First question I have is do you like the beer you are making now? If yes then why change it?

I did BIAB for a bit and I probably would have kept doing it if I didn't decide to make 10 gallon batches. I know there are brewers out there making that size batch with a bag but I wasn't interested in dealing with a bag of that size so I built a 3 tier system.

If you have a handle on fermentation temp control and you like how you are packaging your beer then go to a 3 vessel system. Review your process and if you think you could streamline something the fix that first.

 

[Metzen]

As @Transamguy77 pointed out, the key decision for me would be natch size. If you want to go larger, then it makes sense to move to 3V.

I reduced my equipment footprint (notice I didn’t say downgraded) from a 3 vessel to BIAB and won’t look back. I may add a second small vessel just for added strike water and as a potential HERMS option. But BIAB is the way to go IMHO. Perhaps you use your extra dough on your fermentation kit, upgrade your BIAB equipment, etc.

I moved from propane to electric and have been much happier with better results being able to nail in my temps.

 

[PADave]

I've done BIAB since I've moved up from my first few one gallon brews. I have no intention of changing, even after 40+ brews. There is too much equipment in my basement now, last thing I need is more.

 

[NTexBrewer]

I started brewing stove top BIAB, then built a eBIAB system. My wife surprised me with a Fusion 15 from Ruby Street Brewing as a 25th anniversary present this spring.

Honestly, all three methods make great beer. I have won medals with BIAB and eBIAB. I have not had a chance to enter any beers from the Fusion 15.

The Fusion 15 simplifies some things like temperature control, step mashing, and chilling. Clean up is a little more complicated though.

As others have suggested maybe look at other aspects of your brewing to upgrade. Oxygen Wand, stir plate for yeast starters, fermentation temperature control, grain mill, etc.

Join a Homebrew club. Ours does a monthly brew day at a club members house which is a great way to see different brew setups, techniques, etc. this may help you decide if upgrading your brewing system makes sense.

 

[brew703]

I started brewing about 3 years ago. Began with 1 gallon batches on the stove, then three gallon batches (BIAB). I now brew 5 gallons and still do BIAB. I thought about moving to an all grain setup but in the end decided I would stay with the simplicity of BIAB. Eventually I would like to upgrade my pot to include a recirc arm/pump and weldless fittings. But at the moment I am happy and satisfied with the product I put out BIAB style.
People complain about efficiency with BIAB but I get in the low to mid 80's almost every brew.
FWIW, I have tried home brew on a typical all grain system and couldn't detect any difference between all grain and BIAB.

As others have mentioned focus on fermentation and temp control.

 

[shetc]

Still doing BIAB but decided that I had to try harder with getting my yeast right (thanks Jamil). And voila, really good beer!

 

[kh54s10]

On the other side of the coin. I started with a three vessel gravity system. I am set up for it. For BIAB I don't have a good way to handle the heavy, hot, sticky mess of the grain bag. I find that it is far easier to clean my mash tun than the BIAB bag. In both cases you still have to clean the boil kettle.

It is personal choice. The beer will be essentially the same.

I second looking at all other aspects of brewing and prioritizing based on what will help the beer the most. Methods of mashing and boiling are low on that list.

 

[soccerdad]

The translators of the Old Testament did us a great disservice with Joshua 24:15. The true translation is, "As for me and my household, we will stick with BIAB."

 

[AkTom]

I started with a 3 vessel system. Never tried biab. I don’t think it’s that much more to clean. As others have said said. Temp control is (or so I read and swallowed the hook) very important. A friend gave me an old fridge. So I waited for my controller to come before brewed my first beer.
I’d see if there’s some brewer local that has a 3 vessel that you can brew with. You may like it, you may think your current setup is the cats meow. It is what works for you. Don’t get (un)necessarily get caught up in all the shiny and bling. As much as I’d love to upgrade my whole system, I make some really good beer and will keep it just like it is.
Sorry for the long response.
Cheers and brew on bro.

 

[kevin58]

The one thing that disturbs me about your OP is your suggestion to buy things just because you see other brewers using them. Spend your money where it will bring you the most benefit. Not because everyone else is doing it.

BIAB is "regular all grain brewing". It is not an inferior or somehow lesser technique. I have a three kettle system but I still do BIAB using just one of them from time to time. The beer comes out the same whether I mash and brew in one kettle or if I use all three.

 

[mongoose33]

I started out all-grain with the cooler mash tun approach, did just fine doing that. Then I became aware of BIAB.

There can be resistance when a different and purportedly better method comes along, for to drop the current method is to abandon all that hard-won knowledge of how to make it work, and to adopt a new technique with a new learning curve.

I was curious, so I traded out equipment to allow me to try BIAB: new 10-gallon kettle (sold the 8-gallon one), a bag from Michael Wilser, got a better burner.

Took me 3 or 4 tries to get it down--different crush, nailing the mash temp took a little experimentation, how to squeeze or even if I should....but in the end, the resulting beer was the same. And BIAB was easier and faster.

I've since gone back to the traditional mash tun because I'm experimenting with and adopting low-oxygen brewing techniques and I can control oxygen ingress to the wort better (I think) that way as opposed to using BIAB. And here's the funny thing: I'm doing a no-sparge approach similar to what would happen w/ BIAB, in that I'm using the same water/grain parameters in my mash tun as I would have used with BIAB. So it's still with me to some extent.

But if I weren't trying to employ LODO techniques....I can't think of a reason I wouldn't have stayed w/ BIAB. It's faster and easier.

***************

I wonder if some brewers think they're somehow lesser beings in the pantheon of brewers if they're not somehow using more traditional techniques such as multiple rests, fly sparging, decoction, lautering, etc. I think that if you produce beer at the end, you're a brewer.

 

[kh54s10]

Can someone explain to me why BIAB is faster? Unless experimenting with short mashes and short boils that can be done on any system, where is the savings? This is of course with batch sparging not fly sparging.

You mash for the same amount of time and boil for the same amount of time. Batch sparging takes 10 - 20 minutes depending. Draining the bag would take 10 minutes. If you sparge your BIAB there is no difference.

Cleaning the BIAB bag takes ? 5 minutes. I use a 5 gallon paint strainer bag and the elastic hold grain inside so it takes me LONGER with the bag. Rinsing out my mash tun doesn't even take 5 minutes. Besides I do this while the boil is on so there is no extra time.

Cooling takes the same amount of time also.

So again, Where is this big time savings?

 

[Kent88]

When I started doing mashes and mini-mashes I was BingIAB and after a couple batches I switched to using an insulated cooler.

With the mash in a kettle I found I was fiddling with the burners too much when I would find a cold spot in the mash, then after a few minutes with the heat on and some stirring I would find an area that was too hot, then I'd curse, add some cold water, and repeat the process.

Mashing in a cooler holds mash temperature and forces me to slow down, consider my circumstances, lets me give it some time, stir it up, and re-check before I add some infusion water to adjust the temperature.

And if you like the convenience of cleaning up, or you're worried about a stuck sparge, you can always BIAB in a cooler for a few (or more) batches.

 

[mongoose33]

Can someone explain to me why BIAB is faster? Unless experimenting with short mashes and short boils that can be done on any system, where is the savings? This is of course with batch sparging not fly sparging.

You mash for the same amount of time and boil for the same amount of time. Batch sparging takes 10 - 20 minutes depending. Draining the bag would take 10 minutes. If you sparge your BIAB there is no difference.

Cleaning the BIAB bag takes ? 5 minutes. I use a 5 gallon paint strainer bag and the elastic hold grain inside so it takes me LONGER with the bag. Rinsing out my mash tun doesn't even take 5 minutes. Besides I do this while the boil is on so there is no extra time.

Cooling takes the same amount of time also.

So again, Where is this big time savings?

Lautering and sparging.

As soon as that bag is lifted on goes the burner. It's faster.

 

[kh54s10]

OK, maybe the 10 - 15 minutes that it takes me to batch sparge. Do you wait at all for the bag to drain? or do you sparge your BIAB as some do? If so there is no time savings.

 

[mongoose33]

OK, maybe the 10 - 15 minutes that it takes me to batch sparge. Do you wait at all for the bag to drain? or do you sparge your BIAB as some do? If so there is no time savings.

I squeeze, but as soon as that bag is hoisted I'm heating toward the boil. You may not see it as having time savings but for me it cut about 30 minutes out of the enterprise. It's also easier, and makes for a relaxing brew day.

I had much the same reaction as you until I tried it.

 

[brew703]

When I brew, it takes me 4 hrs from start to finish incl clean up. Not sure how that compares to regular all grain using a mash tun or three vessels.
The issue for me was the mash. I never could maintain mash temps and about half way through the mash I was turning on the burner to heat back to mash temps. I was close to getting an ice chest to use as a mash tun with a Wilser bag.
Then I found an insulated sleeping bag. Only see a 1 maybe 2 degree drop in temp in one hour and that's even during the winter.

@mongoose33 how is traditional all grain brewing better for Lodo techniques than BIAB? Just cusious.

 

[mongoose33]

When I brew, it takes me 4 hrs from start to finish incl clean up. Not sure how that compares to regular all grain using a mash tun or three vessels.
The issue for me was the mash. I never could maintain mash temps and about half way through the mash I was turning on the burner to heat back to mash temps. I was close to getting an ice chest to use as a mash tun with a Wilser bag.
Then I found an insulated sleeping bag. Only see a 1 maybe 2 degree drop in temp in one hour and that's even during the winter.

@mongoose33 how is traditional all grain brewing better for Lodo techniques than BIAB? Just cusious.

A very good question. Let me preface this by saying I'm no expert on this, I'm just trying to figure it out.

There are a few places where there is oxygen ingress in the process that the BIAB approach makes it difficult to control.

1. When you lift the bag, the draining wort is exposed to oxygen. Further, there's no way during that to do what's called a lauter cap, a "lid" on the wort to prevent O2 exposure.

2. During the mash you want to use something called a "mash cap," which is similar to the lauter cap. It prevents most of the surface of the mash from being exposed to, and absorbing oxygen from, the atmosphere. It's possible to use one of these in a BIAB setup--I used one--but it's often difficult to find a cap that fits the kettle and bag.

3. In LODO brewing you want to drive O2 out of the strike water. There are two ways to do this, one involves using yeast--something I don't do--the other involves boiling the strike water to drive off the O2, then chilling it back down to your strike temperature. Then, what you want to do is called "underletting" the grist, which means putting the grist in the mash tun (or in this case the kettle), and then filling with the strike water from the bottom up.

That means you have to remove the strike water from the boil kettle and then reintroduce it. A pain, and somewhat counter to what BIAB is supposed to accomplish, i.e., simplicity.

Some argue you should be able to put the grist in the bag and lower into the strike water. I've never done it that way.

**********

I've been working with LODO since November, though only recently have I been able to do almost all of what my system is capable of doing. One issue with this has been a desire to sample someone's LODO beer to see if it's worth the extra processes involved. I don't know anyone who does it locally, so the only way to test is to make my own.

I've had some success, and as I've become more familiar with it it's become easier. And some of the beer has, frankly, been excellent. There are issues related to recipe formulation--there are alterations I've needed to do--and some other things. My next goal is to get a HERMS system in place so I don't have to remove the mash cap to stir.

************

I've been doing a sort of hybrid thing. I'm doing a no-sparge mash in my mash tun, borrowed from what we do in BIAB. I use 8.25 gallons of strike water, accounting for losses in the mash tun, in the boil kettle when I pump to the fermenter, and in the pump and hoses. I adjusted the recipe to account for the greater amount of strike water, and adjusted hops a bit as I think the greater malt flavor components tend to mask the hops a bit. Still working on that. I brew a Rye beer that is usually wonderful; the last batch using LODO is too malty, not enough hoppy. I'll adjust the hops up by about 25 percent the next time, as there needs to be a hop bite to offset the malt. It's not that it's bad--it's not at all, it's actually very flavorful--it's that the balance isn't quite right. I'll fix that next time.

***********

Does all the above sound like I'm nuts? Maybe. It's the only way I can honestly assess LODO brewing to see if it's worth it. I've had some successes with it--a Pilsner I did recently with LODO won a small local competition, and it has flavor like no Pilsner I've ever had. It's rich, it's deep, and the flavor extends past the swallow. As a friend of mine said, the flavor just goes.....and goes...

Is it worth the extra effort and time? Stay tuned.

 

[kh54s10]

I squeeze, but as soon as that bag is hoisted I'm heating toward the boil. You may not see it as having time savings but for me it cut about 30 minutes out of the enterprise. It's also easier, and makes for a relaxing brew day.

I had much the same reaction as you until I tried it.

I have tried it. As I have said I don't have a hoist so handling the spent grain is a PITA. All said and done,with my set up, if it saves me any time it is less than 15 minutes..

I can also start the boil while draining the sparge. But I tried that once and it makes for a hectic few minutes watching the drain and for a boil over at the same time. I didn't catch it in time - what a mess.

 

[Washington_Brewologist]

The one thing that disturbs me about your OP is your suggestion to buy things just because you see other brewers using them. Spend your money where it will bring you the most benefit. Not because everyone else is doing it.

BIAB is "regular all grain brewing". It is not an inferior or somehow lesser technique. I have a three kettle system but I still do BIAB using just one of them from time to time. The beer comes out the same whether I mash and brew in one kettle or if I use all three.

I suppose this idea came from seeing so many videos with people using the 3 tier system. After reading all of these posts I feel a lot better about sticking with and improving my fermentation and temperature control.
You guys rock. Thanks for all of the love on this post!

 

[amrmedic]

I began my homebrew journey using a 3 vessel gravity fed set up and am now going to a BIAB rig.

There is some preconceived notion that a more complicated or intricate set up or method of doing something is better. Sometimes it is as it provides a lot more control but it can also allow for more mistakes and issues.

Reality is, BIAB is all grain brewing. You can do pretty much everything in a 1 kettle BIAB rig as you can do with a standard 3 kettle system except sparge. Sparging improves efficiency and does not really affect the flavor or quality of the beer. Also, it is common to do a no sparge method with a 3 tier gravity system.

BIAB brewing is just single vessel no sparge all grain brewing. I am awaiting the delivery of my new system which is a huge upgrade from my previous gravity fed system. It is a single vessel BIAB rig.

Things that effect a homebrew beer taste or quality the most is the yeast and fermentation. I would recommend you invest in a method to accurately control fermentation temperatures before changing to a 3 vessel system.

 

[Washington_Brewologist]

I began my homebrew journey using a 3 vessel gravity fed set up and am now going to a BIAB rig.

There is some preconceived notion that a more complicated or intricate set up or method of doing something is better. Sometimes it is as it provides a lot more control but it can also allow for more mistakes and issues.

Reality is, BIAB is all grain brewing. You can do pretty much everything in a 1 kettle BIAB rig as you can do with a standard 3 kettle system except sparge. Sparging improves efficiency and does not really affect the flavor or quality of the beer. Also, it is common to do a no sparge method with a 3 tier gravity system.

BIAB brewing is just single vessel no sparge all grain brewing. I am awaiting the delivery of my new system which is a huge upgrade from my previous gravity fed system. It is a single vessel BIAB rig.

Things that effect a homebrew beer taste or quality the most is the yeast and fermentation. I would recommend you invest in a method to accurately control fermentation temperatures before changing to a 3 vessel system.

Just out of curiosity, What rig are you picking up?

 

[kh54s10]

I began my homebrew journey using a 3 vessel gravity fed set up and am now going to a BIAB rig.

There is some preconceived notion that a more complicated or intricate set up or method of doing something is better. Sometimes it is as it provides a lot more control but it can also allow for more mistakes and issues.

Reality is, BIAB is all grain brewing. You can do pretty much everything in a 1 kettle BIAB rig as you can do with a standard 3 kettle system except sparge. Sparging improves efficiency and does not really affect the flavor or quality of the beer. Also, it is common to do a no sparge method with a 3 tier gravity system.

BIAB brewing is just single vessel no sparge all grain brewing. I am awaiting the delivery of my new system which is a huge upgrade from my previous gravity fed system. It is a single vessel BIAB rig.

Things that effect a homebrew beer taste or quality the most is the yeast and fermentation. I would recommend you invest in a method to accurately control fermentation temperatures before changing to a 3 vessel system.

Some observations:
More equipment doesn't necessarily "allow for more mistakes and issues"
You can still sparge with BIAB if you want to. Though I agree that it does not really affect the flavor or quality of the beer. It should increase efficiency though.
IMO, it is not very common to do a no sparge method with a 3 tier gravity system.
I do agree with looking at fermentation temperature control. And there are other things to look at other that BIAB vs Traditional 3 vessel brewing. Like yeast, water chemistry, aging, storage etc.

 

[amrmedic]

My point being that anytime you add steps or more equipment into any process it introduces and/or increases the risk for errors or complications.

You can still spare with a biab set up but sticking to a strict 1 vessel set up, you cant sparge. Once you go beyond 5 gallons, BIAB becomes unwieldy.


The system I am getting is this one. They just had a kickstarter for it and I got it on the early bird for 50 bucks cheaper.
https://www.clawhammersupply.com/co...ts/digital-electric-120v-homebrew-beer-system

 

[brew703]

A very good question. Let me preface this by saying I'm no expert on this, I'm just trying to figure it out.

There are a few places where there is oxygen ingress in the process that the BIAB approach makes it difficult to control.

1. When you lift the bag, the draining wort is exposed to oxygen. Further, there's no way during that to do what's called a lauter cap, a "lid" on the wort to prevent O2 exposure.

2. During the mash you want to use something called a "mash cap," which is similar to the lauter cap. It prevents most of the surface of the mash from being exposed to, and absorbing oxygen from, the atmosphere. It's possible to use one of these in a BIAB setup--I used one--but it's often difficult to find a cap that fits the kettle and bag.

3. In LODO brewing you want to drive O2 out of the strike water. There are two ways to do this, one involves using yeast--something I don't do--the other involves boiling the strike water to drive off the O2, then chilling it back down to your strike temperature. Then, what you want to do is called "underletting" the grist, which means putting the grist in the mash tun (or in this case the kettle), and then filling with the strike water from the bottom up.

That means you have to remove the strike water from the boil kettle and then reintroduce it. A pain, and somewhat counter to what BIAB is supposed to accomplish, i.e., simplicity.

Some argue you should be able to put the grist in the bag and lower into the strike water. I've never done it that way.

**********

I've been working with LODO since November, though only recently have I been able to do almost all of what my system is capable of doing. One issue with this has been a desire to sample someone's LODO beer to see if it's worth the extra processes involved. I don't know anyone who does it locally, so the only way to test is to make my own.

I've had some success, and as I've become more familiar with it it's become easier. And some of the beer has, frankly, been excellent. There are issues related to recipe formulation--there are alterations I've needed to do--and some other things. My next goal is to get a HERMS system in place so I don't have to remove the mash cap to stir.

************

I've been doing a sort of hybrid thing. I'm doing a no-sparge mash in my mash tun, borrowed from what we do in BIAB. I use 8.25 gallons of strike water, accounting for losses in the mash tun, in the boil kettle when I pump to the fermenter, and in the pump and hoses. I adjusted the recipe to account for the greater amount of strike water, and adjusted hops a bit as I think the greater malt flavor components tend to mask the hops a bit. Still working on that. I brew a Rye beer that is usually wonderful; the last batch using LODO is too malty, not enough hoppy. I'll adjust the hops up by about 25 percent the next time, as there needs to be a hop bite to offset the malt. It's not that it's bad--it's not at all, it's actually very flavorful--it's that the balance isn't quite right. I'll fix that next time.

***********

Does all the above sound like I'm nuts? Maybe. It's the only way I can honestly assess LODO brewing to see if it's worth it. I've had some successes with it--a Pilsner I did recently with LODO won a small local competition, and it has flavor like no Pilsner I've ever had. It's rich, it's deep, and the flavor extends past the swallow. As a friend of mine said, the flavor just goes.....and goes...

Is it worth the extra effort and time? Stay tuned.

Wow, thanks for the info. I've read about it and for a moment considered trying but for me too much involved and would need to change my process. For those who do LODO brewing I commend you. Seems like it works well and could be well worth the effort on the homebrew level. I've never tried any beer done the LODO way and I don't know of anyone locally doing it.
Good luck with all you are doing.

 

[toddo97]

Still doing BIAB but decided that I had to try harder with getting my yeast right (thanks Jamil). And voila, really good beer!

What things did you do to improve your yeast? I'm at the point where yeast management is high on my list of things to work on

 

[mongoose33]

Wow, thanks for the info. I've read about it and for a moment considered trying but for me too much involved and would need to change my process. For those who do LODO brewing I commend you. Seems like it works well and could be well worth the effort on the homebrew level. I've never tried any beer done the LODO way and I don't know of anyone locally doing it.
Good luck with all you are doing.

Yeah, the most disconcerting part was changing a process I'd nailed. Turns out, though, that there isn't a whole lot of extra equipment needed. The biggest thing was preboiling the strike water in the BK, transferring it to my elevated mash tun (which was serving as a hot liquor tun), then using gravity to drain that water down to the bottom of the boil kettle so it would underlet.

Did that a couple times, then it occurred to me that I could use the HLT as a mash tun, pump that water into the bottom of the mash tun using the ball valve, and that would underlet the grain. That's what I do now. BTW, and I didn't really, deep down, believe this until I'd seen it, but there are NO dough balls when I dough-in like this.

None of this is rocket science, but much of it is....fiddly. When I started doing this in earnest, I began to use my Riptide pump to move water to the mash tun. Well. Guess what? There are losses there. Also, unless the pump is pre-heated, it contributes a bit to lower temps, as does the heating of the fittings, the ball valve on the mash tun, etc. As I've increased the volume of the strike water from 7.25 to 8.25 gallons, that's pretty much resolved that part of the fiddliness, but all you can do the first time is get a guess from someone what your strike temp should be, do it, then adjust on the fly with a little ice or boiling water.

I've added a couple pics below. They show how I was doing it using BIAB. I got lucky w/ the stainless lid I could use as a mash cap, and all I had to do was elevate the mash tun to use as a HLT and gravity drain the hot water into the kettle.



One more thing: there are a couple other issues. One is that I use 1 1/2 crushed Campden Tablets as part of the strike water. The sodium metabisulfite (another version is potassium metabisulfite) is an oxygen scavenger, which scavenges oxygen which inevitably gets in despite my best efforts. The other is using Brewtan-B to offset the effects of copper in either the mash or boil. I have a Jaded Hydra, and the copper promotes what are called Fenton Reactions, which produce superoxidizers. The Brewtan-B works to offset that. If you have a complete stainless system, that's not such an issue.

**************

Fiddly? Yes. You have to be curious enough about it to want to deal with that. There are a lot of worse things I could be doing with my time other than experimenting with LODO.

And then there's this: some of the LODO folks are just hyper-nuts about O2 entering the process anywhere, even potentially through beer lines or past the cap on a bottle. I don't notice any particular signs of oxidation in my beer, which maybe means I'm just not sensitive to it. Others might be. It's one of those places where what a person perceives has a lot to do with whether they see this as worthwhile or not. I think the beer is excellent, and I've had others agree. But you might not. Or you might. Or might think the extra fiddling isn't worth the outcome.

At some point, I expect I'll brew two batches back-to-back. One I'll do using LODO techniques, my conical fermenter, closed transfer, partial carbing in the fermenter, all the stuff I do to limit oxygen ingress. I'll also do a traditional BIAB without concern for any of the rest of the LODO techniques.

Then I'll let them run their course, keg 'em, and see.

 

[Dland]

BIAB looks like a nice starter route for stove top, but volume too limited. It takes me just as long to brew a 5 gallon batch as it does a 10, about 4 hours, including clean up, and about the same effort. There is no way I'd brew smaller batches. My time is too valuable, and at my rate of consumption, I'd have to brew almost every week with smaller batch, since one of my reasons for homebrewing is to not have to buy beer at all anymore.

On the LoDO, the cold side is easy and rewarding, in kegs anyway, and the cost of a couple spund valves will be made up by CO2 savings pretty quickly.

 

[shetc]

What things did you do to improve your yeast? I'm at the point where yeast management is high on my list of things to work on

Nothing fancy, just buying quality reasonably fresh liquid yeast from my LHBS. Jamil Zainasheff frequently talks about pitching the correct amount of yeast for a given beer, and it finally sunk in that I was not really paying attention to that. I now follow his recommended pitching rates (see, for example, Brewing Classic Styles on page 290). It has made a marked improvement in my beer.

 

[wilserbrewer]

Once you go beyond 5 gallons, BIAB becomes unwieldy.
]

I have to disagree here, an inexpensive ratchet pulley makes 10-15 gallon batches relatively easy ime.

HUGE 145 gallon BIAB linked below...not for everyone but doable...

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/threads/145-gallon-biab-yes-145-gallon.483965/

 

[LittleRiver]

...If you wanted to upgrade I would go to eBIAB, and have something that recirculates, holds temps....

If you do a lot of step mashing, or plan to do so, then I agree that a recirculating rig would be an upgrade. However if that's not the case, I consider the extra complexity, hassles, and cleanup of such a rig to be a downgrade.

...For BIAB I don't have a good way to handle the heavy, hot, sticky mess of the grain bag. I find that it is far easier to clean my mash tun than the BIAB bag....

Having an overhead hoist point is really nice for BIAB. The same is true for having an effective plan on how to handle the bag post mash.

When the bag has stopped draining, I lower it into a plastic bucket, touching only the non-sticky upper part of the bag.

I take the bucket to the woods, drape the top of the bag outside the bucket, and tighten the drawstring. I turn the bucket upside down, the bag inverts itself and dumps the grain out for the deer to eat. I take the bag off and whack it on a tree trunk, then later rinse it out.

Disposal of spent grains, and the related cleanup, doesn't get any easier or less messy than that.

Can someone explain to me why BIAB is faster? Unless experimenting with short mashes and short boils that can be done on any system, where is the savings?...

Here's some places I save time:

• I use a very simple single vessel system, the core of which is a kettle, burner, and Wilser bag. There is just not much gear to handle, setup, cleanup, and put away. Time is saved at every step.
• I never spend time on, or have hassles with, controllers, wort pumps, etc, because I don't use them.
• I use a 15gal kettle for 5gal batches. I have never had to worry about, or clean up, a boil over.
• I'm getting ~83% efficiency with a fine (.025") grain crush, so I don't bother with sparging. Therefore I never have stuck sparge issues.
• I don't squeeze the bag, because gravity will do that for me while I do something else. If I squeezed I'd need to have some gloves, and I'd have to clean them afterward.
• I don't have to be at the kettle to monitor temps. I use a thermometer that has a remote probe and hi/low alarms. I am free to do other things (like weigh & grind grains) while the water is heating. The thermometer will beep me when the water is ready.
• After stirring in the grains I insulate the kettle, and go away to do something else (weigh hops, sanitize the fermenter, etc). The thermometer will beep me if there's a problem. In summertime I don't lose even one degree during a full one hour mash.
• I elevated my burner so I can drain from my kettle directly into my fermenter. That way I don't need to use or clean up a siphon.
  
• I don't have to spend time getting cleanup water ready. My wort chilling system creates the hot wash water and warm rinse water I need for cleanup.
• I use a very simple recirculating immersion chilling system. First I recirculate from a 5gal bucket of tap water, the resulting hot water is saved and used for washing.
• Then I recirculate from a cooler filled with ice water. The cooling capacity of the ice water insures that I will have quick wort chilling times. During the mash I go buy a 20lb bag of ice at a local grocery store for a little more than $2. The resulting warm water in the cooler is used for rinsing during cleanup.
• There is no need to clean the water pump or the hoses, because they've only been exposed to clean water. The immersion chiller is cleaned just by dunking in the cooler.

Without doing any tricks (no pre-heating water or grinding grains the night before, etc), and doing full one hour mashes and boils, my brew days are less than four hours (typically ~3:45). That is from the start of filling the kettle, to the end of cleanup. Brew days are relaxed and fun. I am efficient, but I don't hurry or race the clock.

If I wanted to I could easily get to 3.5 hours, without shortening my mash or boil times. If I shortened my mash and boil by 15 minutes each I could easily get to 3 hours.

 

[BigJoeBrew]

I have battle this thought too, but always come back to the realization that many 3 or 2 tier brewers got in the game before BIAB or didn't know about it. I got in and found BIAB and it works for me. Not that BIAB is the best, whatever works best for you.

 

[eric19312]

Lautering and sparging.

As soon as that bag is lifted on goes the burner. It's faster.

I 3 vessel. As soon as I’ve got 3 gal in the boil kettle the burner goes on. When I’m done sparging kettle is at or near boiling.

 

[eric19312]

At some point, I expect I'll brew two batches back-to-back. One I'll do using LODO techniques, my conical fermenter, closed transfer, partial carbing in the fermenter, all the stuff I do to limit oxygen ingress. I'll also do a traditional BIAB without concern for any of the rest of the LODO techniques.

Then I'll let them run their course, keg 'em, and see.

Mongoose I’ve been following your journey with interest and am hoping the side by side you eventually do will compare easy LODO to full LODO. You make the call on what is easy but I’m thinking Camden and brewtan b vs full hot side LODO with DO water, mash cap, wet milling, under letting who knows what else. Then fill easy LODO with a closed transfer into purged (push starsan out with CO2) keg and force carb while full LODO gets spunded for carbonation.

Testing will be difficult. Preferably need to triangle test with panel blinded to the variable. But frankly if difference is at edge of detectability I think you will have answered your original question.

 

[kh54s10]

If you do a lot of step mashing, or plan to do so, then I agree that a recirculating rig would be an upgrade. However if that's not the case, I consider the extra complexity, hassles, and cleanup of such a rig to be a downgrade.



Having an overhead hoist point is really nice for BIAB. The same is true for having an effective plan on how to handle the bag post mash.

When the bag has stopped draining, I lower it into a plastic bucket, touching only the non-sticky upper part of the bag.

I take the bucket to the woods, drape the top of the bag outside the bucket, and tighten the drawstring. I turn the bucket upside down, the bag inverts itself and dumps the grain out for the deer to eat. I take the bag off and whack it on a tree trunk, then later rinse it out.

Disposal of spent grains, and the related cleanup, doesn't get any easier or less messy than that.

When the mash tun is drained I carry the mash tun to the compost pile and dump it out. No bag to mess with. Rinsing out the tun with a hose takes only a minute or two. Can't get any easier or less messy than that.



Here's some places I save time:

• I use a very simple single vessel system, the core of which is a kettle, burner, and Wilser bag. There is just not much gear to handle, setup, cleanup, and put away. Time is saved at every step.

I have my system in place so there is very little setup. So no time saved

• I never spend time on, or have hassles with, controllers, wort pumps, etc, because I don't use them.

I don't have controllers wort pumps etc. either. So no time saved

• I use a 15gal kettle for 5gal batches. I have never had to worry about, or clean up, a boil over.

I use a 10 gallon pot for 5 gallons so I have to worry a little. But unless I do get a boil over... So, usually, no time saved.

• I'm getting ~83% efficiency with a fine (.025") grain crush, so I don't bother with sparging. Therefore I never have stuck sparge issues.

I get lower efficiency ?? I am not chasing efficiency. I do sparge but have only once had a stuck sparge. I can sparge about as fast as the BIAB bag will drain. So I will cede some time here - no more than 15 minutes.

• I don't squeeze the bag, because gravity will do that for me while I do something else. If I squeezed I'd need to have some gloves, and I'd have to clean them afterward.

• I don't have to be at the kettle to monitor temps. I use a thermometer that has a remote probe and hi/low alarms. I am free to do other things (like weigh & grind grains) while the water is heating. The thermometer will beep me when the water is ready.

I don't have to be at the kettle to monitor temps either. I do whatever and in between go check once and a while. So no time saved.

• After stirring in the grains I insulate the kettle, and go away to do something else (weigh hops, sanitize the fermenter, etc). The thermometer will beep me if there's a problem. In summertime I don't lose even one degree during a full one hour mash.

I stir in the grains go away and do something else. Wait until the timer goes off, I may have lost as much as 4 degrees in the winter when I lived up north. So no time saved.

• I elevated my burner so I can drain from my kettle directly into my fermenter. That way I don't need to use or clean up a siphon.

I have my kettle raised also - no siphon. So no time saved.

• I don't have to spend time getting cleanup water ready. My wort chilling system creates the hot wash water and warm rinse water I need for cleanup.

I don't spend any time preparing water. So no time saved.

• I use a very simple recirculating immersion chilling system. First I recirculate from a 5gal bucket of tap water, the resulting hot water is saved and used for washing.

I use immersion chilling with a pre chill coil. So no time saved

• Then I recirculate from a cooler filled with ice water. The cooling capacity of the ice water insures that I will have quick wort chilling times. During the mash I go buy a 20lb bag of ice at a local grocery store for a little more than $2. The resulting warm water in the cooler is used for rinsing during cleanup.

I have frozen soda bottles of water so I don't have to buy ice. Anyone can do most of these things so it is not a BIAB time saving. So no time saved.

• There is no need to clean the water pump or the hoses, because they've only been exposed to clean water. The immersion chiller is cleaned just by dunking in the cooler.

My IC is cleaned by rinsing off at the sink. So no time saved.
Without doing any tricks (no pre-heating water or grinding grains the night before, etc), and doing full one hour mashes and boils, my brew days are less than four hours (typically ~3:45). That is from the start of filling the kettle, to the end of cleanup. Brew days are relaxed and fun. I am efficient, but I don't hurry or race the clock.

I guess I am more relaxed and having fun because my day usually takes about 4 hours. Maybe those 15 minutes for a sparge, maybe that I just work more slowly.

If I wanted to I could easily get to 3.5 hours, without shortening my mash or boil times. If I shortened my mash and boil by 15 minutes each I could easily get to 3 hours.

There are replies to each point in red in the quote above. Click on it to see them.

It may be that sparging adds about 15 minutes to my day or it might be that you are more diligent than I am. I too could take that half hour off my time. That and many of the other things listed are not a BIAB thing for time saving.

I am not poo-pooing BIAB. I do it sometimes. I set up my 3 tier gravity system before BIAB took off. I don't have a good solution for a hoist. I don't need to save those possible 15 minutes if they are actual savings. So I prefer my 3 vessel brewing. Maybe some day.

 

[LittleRiver]

...many of the other things listed are not a BIAB thing for time saving.

True. Several of the points can be applied to any method of brewing.

Don't discount the importance of the first point (having a simple system). If there is less gear to set up, troubleshoot, monitor, clean up, and put away at the end of the day, the time savings add up at every step. That is a BIAB thing.

Having a thermometer with hi/low alarms allows me to use my time more efficiently. It frees me up to do other things while it monitors the temp for me.

Chilling with recirculated ice water frees me from any limitations of ground water temperature (plus I like the fact that the cooling water gets re-used for cleanup). I don't "waste" any time when I go buy ice, because I do that during the mash. The cleanup time for my cooling system is negligible, since I'm only pumping clean water, not wort.

Those three are the biggest contributors to my time efficiency.

...I prefer my 3 vessel brewing.

If you are enjoying your brewing then you are doing it right.