Starter with Dry Yeast

[HopSong]

I don't know if that is proper terminology .. But my question is.. I'm planning on brewing a Brewers Best IPA kit. It comes with a dry yeast.. I haven't opened the box to find out what kind.

However, what I want to know is.. Is it at ALL helpful to put the yeast into a flask with a starter to get it really going before pitching?

Reason I ask is.. I've only done two brews so far.. neither of them have formed much of a krausen.. FAR from the kind that need a blowoff. I was hoping to get something pretty active going with a lot of yeast bodies to fart CO2.

I have a flask.. and I have a stir plate in the mail..

Thanks for your thoughts... Bill

 

[chromados]

You do not need to make a starter for dry yeast. I usually just throw the dry yeast into the carboy as I am emptying my boil kettle. If I am brewing a huge beer I will re-hydrate the dry yeast in warm water before I pitch it. I usually use liquid but as of late have been using a lot of dry yeast because they are a lot easier to use and I dont need to worry about making a starter a couple days before.

Chromados

 

[McGarnigle]

Have your previous batches attenuated appropriately? If so, don't worry about the size of the krausen.

 

[samc]

With quality dry yeast a starter is actually counter productive. With kits, often the yeast is junk and possibly old depending on the age of the kit. So if it is a Danstar or Safale yeast with a good expiration date don't do a starter. If it is a no name on the package yeast, either replace it or dare I say make a starter. When I first started brewing some of the kits came with 7 gram packets of yeast that were undersized for the beer, they would have benefited from a proper yeast pitch.

 

[HopSong]

Thanks guys..
Mc.. I don't really understand attenuation yet.. I started at 40 and reached 14 with 20 someodd days in the FV. Full extract.. no steeping grains.. Coopers kit.. the yeast was almost newly packaged. Coopers also.

samc.. Thanks, didn't realize it could be counterproductive. My latest brew.. a Morebeer Am Amber did the same thing.. started at 56 and hit 14 after 20days in the primary.. I used new date Safale 05. Actually got a bit more krausen from the Coopers.. but the Safale produced almost no foam at the top. I'm sure this means little as it did ferment quite well. I don't think this could be considered a big beer to use more than one packet.

Thanks again..

 

[ChillWill]

Also don't oxygenate wort if using dry yeast. The yeast don't need it so it'll just increase staling.

 

[RM-MN]

Thanks guys..
Mc.. I don't really understand attenuation yet.. I started at 40 and reached 14 with 20 someodd days in the FV. Full extract.. no steeping grains.. Coopers kit.. the yeast was almost newly packaged. Coopers also.

samc.. Thanks, didn't realize it could be counterproductive. My latest brew.. a Morebeer Am Amber did the same thing.. started at 56 and hit 14 after 20days in the primary.. I used new date Safale 05. Actually got a bit more krausen from the Coopers.. but the Safale produced almost no foam at the top. I'm sure this means little as it did ferment quite well. I don't think this could be considered a big beer to use more than one packet.

Thanks again..

If your yeast could convert all the sugars to alcohol, that would be 100% attenuation but yeast can't eat all kinds of sugars so there is always some left. If the yeast ate 75% of the sugar, that would be 75% attenuation.

It really isn't quite that simple but that is the general idea.

 

[chromados]

Also don't oxygenate wort if using dry yeast. The yeast don't need it so it'll just increase staling.

Yeah, I cant believe that as I pump pure oxygen into all my beers if I am using dry, or liquid yeast and have never had a stalled fermentation using any yeast. The only time I would recommend not oxygenating is if you are not using a saccharomyces yeast and are just infecting the brew.

Chromados

 

[Ozzfest05]

Also don't oxygenate wort if using dry yeast. The yeast don't need it so it'll just increase staling.

This is 100% false . When I aerate my wort really good (5-6 inches of bubbles) I get fermentation activity within 4-8 hours if I don't it's taken up to 3 days.

 

[RM-MN]

Yeah, I cant believe that as I pump pure oxygen into all my beers if I am using dry, or liquid yeast and have never had a stalled fermentation using any yeast. The only time I would recommend not oxygenating is if you are not using a saccharomyces yeast and are just infecting the brew.

Chromados

Read carefully. He said staling, not stalling. These are two different problems.

 

[chromados]

Read carefully. He said staling, not stalling. These are two different problems.

Either way, suggesting that someone not oxygenate the wort prior to pitching their yeast is foolish. It is proven that brewers yeast require oxygen as this is a aerobic process. If dry yeast did not require oxygen it would be known throughout the hobby.

Chroamdos

 

[rellot]

yeah, where did you get the info that dry yeast doesn't need oxygen? you don't need a starter with dry yeast, just rehydrate and maybe add another package if you need more cells.

but adding O2 at fermentation increases the speed by which it goes stale?

 

[samc]

Lipids built into dry yeast reduce the need for oxygen, check Danstar for Oxygen requirements.

 

[sketerbuck]

Oxygen requirements does not mean that it doesn't benefit your beer. The temperature requirements may be 65f-75f but if you ferment at 75f your beer will not be its best. Yeast does not necessarily make the best beer under its optimal conditions.

 

[ChillWill]

Either way, suggesting that someone not oxygenate the wort prior to pitching their yeast is foolish. It is proven that brewers yeast require oxygen as this is a aerobic process. If dry yeast did not require oxygen it would be known throughout the hobby.

Chroamdos

FYI I was told this information at the Nottingham University / SABMiller research facility by Chris Boulton (Brewing Yeast and Fermentation: Amazon.co.uk: Chris Boulton, David Quain: Books) and Chris Powell who previously worked at Llallemand in Canada (where they make Nottingham, the worlds best selling dry yeast).

As has been previously suggested, died yeast is pre-grown with high lipid levels and hence doesn't need oxygenation (as the oxygen is only needed to synthesize lipids and there is already a sufficient amount, thus no more oxygen is needed).

However, once the dried yeast has been used for a fermentation; if you wish to reuse it, you should treat it as wet (ie. oxygenate).

So in conclusion... the information I provided wasn't really foolish in my opinion.

*Edit* I'm assuming the correct amount is pitched by the way. But that's a completely different topic.

 

[rellot]

that sounds like legit info then. --- what page is that from?

 

[ChillWill]

that sounds like legit info then. --- what page is that from?

Straight from the horses mouth.

Chris Boulton is one of the leading figures in yeast and fermentation and said oxygenating wort with dried yeast was unecessary and inadvisable as it'll increase the rate of staling. Chris Powell reinforced the point; he was the project manager at the Genetic identification lab at Lellemand and the senior scientist in brewing research (who worked on improvements of viability of dried yeast).

It was at a workshop/lab session that I was sent to a couple of weeks ago (also had one on wort production).

 

[Token]

Also don't oxygenate wort if using dry yeast. The yeast don't need it so it'll just increase staling.

Always oxygenate your wort before adding yeast, dry or liquid, once the wort is at pitching temps.

 

[rellot]

Straight from the horses mouth.

if you can find it in print from someone respected like him, that would end this thread and basically be new information for most.

I'm hoping it's true, and the logic makes sense from my limited knowledge of the subject. I'm not trying to say you aren't remembering what he said correctly, because you very well could be. It's just that someone's memory of what someone else said is not the same as all of us seeing the original person's words in print, or on a video or something.

I imagine dry yeast companies would want consumers to know info like this. So if you (or anyone else) can find something like that, I would love to see it. FAQs on dry yeast companies' websites usually just address that you don't need to make a starter, not this.

 

[ChillWill]

Always oxygenate your wort before adding yeast, dry or liquid, once the wort is at pitching temps.

Why do you say that?

Rellot - I'll see what I can come up with buddy, but it was only last week and I can remember it perfectly clearly.

We also did quite a bit on the drying process and why rehydration is so important.

Also... found out yeast nutrient is useless as the only thing malt doesn't provide is sufficient zinc (well it does, but it usually ends up in the trub). Interesting!

 

[chitownbrewer]

I don't know if that is proper terminology .. But my question is.. I'm planning on brewing a Brewers Best IPA kit. It comes with a dry yeast.. I haven't opened the box to find out what kind.

However, what I want to know is.. Is it at ALL helpful to put the yeast into a flask with a starter to get it really going before pitching?

Reason I ask is.. I've only done two brews so far.. neither of them have formed much of a krausen.. FAR from the kind that need a blowoff. I was hoping to get something pretty active going with a lot of yeast bodies to fart CO2.

I have a flask.. and I have a stir plate in the mail..

Thanks for your thoughts... Bill

I always make a starter for my yeast since I use the dry kind. I've done BB kits and they have come with dry yeast and I've done starters for those also.

After I have added all extracts and started my boil I take a sample(about 1/2 a cup), cool it down to room temp. I pour my yeast into it I cover the sample with some seran wrap and I stir for a few minutes. After about an hour it starts to foam. Then you know its alive. Good luck.

 

[passedpawn]

Samc, above, is correct. Dr. Clayton Cone, whom I think is one of the absolute authorities on dry yeast, says not to use oxygen when pitching dry yeast.

Crabtree Effect and Overflow Metabolism | Danstar Premium Beer Yeasts - The Dry Yeast Advantage

Active Dry Beer Yeast initially contain enough lipids in their cell wall for 3 - 4 growth cycles. This is enough to complete most beer fermentations. Recycled yeast usually do not contain enough lipids for 3 - 4 growth cycles. The lipids must be replenished with fresh additions of Oxygen.​

 

[rellot]

so for dry yeast it seems no O2 for low gravity beers, but add 02 about 14 hours after pitching for high gravity beers.

In low gravity brewing, oxygen at the beginning of the fermentation is usually adequate. It is when you get into hi gravity brewing that additional oxygen is helpful after 12 to 24 hours of fermentation. Dr. Mike Ingledew has found that aeration at about the 14th hours is optimum for high gravity brewing. We have found that aeration after 36 hours is optimum for wine fermentations.

I would assume for high gravity beers with liquid yeast the same is true about the second addition of O2. So for high gravity beers and liquid yeast, O2 at pitching and then 14 hours later.

 

[HopSong]

Well, this thread has evolved from where I started it.. but, that's good. I learned I'm not supposed to O2 my extract wort with dry yeast... WHICH I DID on my last batch. We'll see how it turns out.... I hope I hope I hope.. it'll be OK.. I'm sure It'll be drinkable.. but... Live and learn.. or ask questions first. I never gave oxygenating a second thought. Common practice one way or another.. right.. Guess I was wrong.

 

[Ozzfest05]

Well, this thread has evolved from where I started it.. but, that's good. I learned I'm not supposed to O2 my extract wort with dry yeast... WHICH I DID on my last batch. We'll see how it turns out.... I hope I hope I hope.. it'll be OK.. I'm sure It'll be drinkable.. but... Live and learn.. or ask questions first. I never gave oxygenating a second thought. Common practice one way or another.. right.. Guess I was wrong.

Don't be worried . I'm still not convinced I've aerated almost every batch along with most people on this forum.
The ones I didn't aerate took 2-3 days for fermentation to begin where as the same yeast I've had take off In 4 hours with aeration.

I also don't see how shaking up room temperature wort before pitching yeast can have any adverse effects at all. Please tell me different with a straight face.

This thread will promote newbies not to aerate and we will see an increase in the " 2 days still no fermentation category".

 

[samc]

Aeration & Oxygenation are different. Atmosphere has 21% or so Oxygen, so shaking up the fermenter is not the same as pumping pure Oxygen into your wort.

 

[dogbar]

Samc, above, is correct. Dr. Clayton Cone, whom I think is one of the absolute authorities on dry yeast, says not to use oxygen when pitching dry yeast.

Crabtree Effect and Overflow Metabolism | Danstar Premium Beer Yeasts - The Dry Yeast Advantage

Active Dry Beer Yeast initially contain enough lipids in their cell wall for 3 - 4 growth cycles. This is enough to complete most beer fermentations. Recycled yeast usually do not contain enough lipids for 3 - 4 growth cycles. The lipids must be replenished with fresh additions of Oxygen.

Reading that page, it doesn't seem like he's saying not to oxygenate. Rather, he's saying if you don't oxygenate, you'll still get enough yeast growth to complete a normal fermentation.

If oxygenating means your yeast are in better shape at the end of the fermentation, it seems plausible that there's still some benefit to be derived.

The one thing that reference is clearly NOT saying is "aerating when using dry yeast is bad." Some other source may make that claim, however.

 

[ChillWill]

I always make a starter for my yeast since I use the dry kind. I've done BB kits and they have come with dry yeast and I've done starters for those also.

After I have added all extracts and started my boil I take a sample(about 1/2 a cup), cool it down to room temp. I pour my yeast into it I cover the sample with some seran wrap and I stir for a few minutes. After about an hour it starts to foam. Then you know its alive. Good luck.

That's not a starter, that's proofing.

You should always rehydrate (with boiled and cooled tap water, not distilled... or you can also use a 50/50 water/wort mix), otherwise osmotic shock will damage the yeast.

 

[passedpawn]

Reading that page, it doesn't seem like he's saying not to oxygenate. Rather, he's saying if you don't oxygenate, you'll still get enough yeast growth to complete a normal fermentation.

This link is the one I was looking for: Aeration and Starter Versus Wort | Danstar Premium Beer Yeasts - The Dry Yeast Advantage

Yes you are right, Cone never says too much O2 is bad.

Here is Bobby_M's experiment with Dry Yeast. He tests with/without O2, and with/without rehydrating. There is also a control batch in which he as a much larger pitch rate than recommended. The conclusions are listed at the end of the video, but it seems that

1) fermentation gets started more quickly with hydration,
2) fermentation gets started more quickly without O2,
3) Rehydration and O2 did not affect the FG,
4) increasing pitching rate had a signficant affect on FG.​

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vOrfmzpDmPk]Dry Yeast Experiment - YouTube[/ame]

 

[Token]

Don't be worried . I'm still not convinced I've aerated almost every batch along with most people on this forum.
The ones I didn't aerate took 2-3 days for fermentation to begin where as the same yeast I've had take off In 4 hours with aeration.

I also don't see how shaking up room temperature wort before pitching yeast can have any adverse effects at all. Please tell me different with a straight face.

This thread will promote newbies not to aerate and we will see an increase in the " 2 days still no fermentation category".

Well said, especially that last part.