Novalager or ale yeast

[hilljack13]

After many attempts at trying to produce a lager/pilsner, or anything fermented with a lager yeast, I finally give up. I have tried only dry, 34/70, S-189, S-23. My only good attempt was using Novalager on a 100% vienna malt grain bill. Should I just stick to this or try an ale yeast (for science)?

Wondering what others have tried and any recommendations.

 

[leedspointbrew]

Why are you giving up? What exactly is the problem? My lagering setup is extremely low-tech - a 5 gal fermenter sitting in a swamp cooler with frozen 2-liters. I've done a few lagers in this setup, using 34/70 and S-189, with more than acceptable results. Weihenstephaner (if that's how it's spelled) - certainly not; more than drinkable - definitely yes.

 

[hilljack13]

I actually think it might be my grains. My process for ales and lagers are exactly the same, with the exception of fermentation. I use a Grainfather G40 and Spike Flex+ with glycol chiller. Everything is stable, but I can't get a lager/pils that is worth drinking. Always some funky taste. I guess the yeast could be the issue, but using three different types I guess scratches that out? I also use RO water and build profile off what the software shows for the beer type. I have tried for almost two years now and still can't get anything worth drinking....until I tried the Novalager. Also my last batch I used Brewzyme-D and it might have helped with diacetyl but the beer is still a bit sour if that makes any sense.

Just wondering if I do a full 5 gal batch using Nova or an ale yeast and the beer turns out good, what the previous issue could be.

 

[day_trippr]

Unexpected sour or funk suggests something wild made it into your brewing...

 

[MaxStout]

Having several beers in a row turn out bad really sucks, and I feel for you. Been there.

Give your cold-side gear a thorough cleaning, then a good sanitizing. Use something more powerful than Starsan. Bleach can be corrosive to stainless, so maybe iodophor at a higher concentration (you'll need to rinse it). If you use plastic tubing anywhere, consider replacing that.

 

[AmarikinBrew]

Rinse with star-san on everything the unfermented beer touches?

 

[hilljack13]

Give your cold-side gear a thorough cleaning, then a good sanitizing.

Do you mean the fermenter? I use Alkaline Brewery Wash. Then starsan before adding wort.

Rinse with star-san on everything the unfermented beer touches?

I do. Again, I have zero issues with any ale I brew, process is the same. I have even done warm fermentation with 34/70. Not sure what else to add.

 

[hilljack13]

Again, sorry for some confusion, but my main question is should I try Novalager or an Ale yeast to see if that makes a drinkable beer (Lager/Pils) instead of using either 34/70, s-189, or S-23?

 

[hilljack13]

Would someone be willing to taste my last brew? I have some .5L german flip tops I can ship. More local would be best, but for one bottle I could deal with shipping. The brew was a Paulaner Oktoberfest. I have done the same warm fermented and it was much better. This one is the S23 version..... Brewed 3 June. Conditioning started 8 July.

 

[AmarikinBrew]

What kind of cool lager fermenting vessel? A fridge may need a through disassembly to root out the bad beasties that trash the yeasties. It has many more hiding places than a stand alone freezer.

 

[IslandLizard]

[...] the beer is still a bit sour if that makes any sense.

Sorry to hear you're having these issues.
As mentioned before, sourness points to infections.

A few Qs:

1. Are you doing anything differently between fermenting lagers vs. ales, aside from fermenting at different temperatures?
2. Are you using the glycol chiller with immersion coil only for Lagers and not for Ales?
3. Are you making starters from the dry Lager yeast or pitching double packages?
4. How long does it take between pitching yeast and getting active fermentation? Does it take significantly longer for your Lagers than for ales?
5. What kind of cleaner and sanitizer are you using?

 

[schmurf]

As for your question: NovaLager makes a perfectly good lager in my experience, and if you’re happy with your results I see no reason not to keep using it. That said, it might be worth trying another yeast from time to time, just to see if anything has changed or if you find a new favorite. Best results for me though has been with liquid yeast, is there a reason for only using dry?

 

[Dland]

Again, sorry for some confusion, but my main question is should I try Novalager or an Ale yeast to see if that makes a drinkable beer (Lager/Pils) instead of using either 34/70, s-189, or S-23?

If going for a lager or pils with those two yeast choices, try Novalager over ale yeast. Ale yeast can get you drinkable beer, but Nova will probably get you closer to Lager/Pils.

 

[TwitchellBrew]

if it makes you feel better, you’re not alone. I feel very confident that all the ales I make can stand up to or even best most commercial beers around me but every time I make a lager, I get humbled. With 34/70 at least. I cannot say why , but I always get acetaldehyde with it. I’ve tried it 4 times. I do everything that everyone else does and still always get it. I usually end up keg conditioning to get rid of it. I’ve used novalager twice now and both times I’ve been very happy with it. Do I feel like I’m copping out? Yes. But it’s better than having a beer I’m not happy with. I say if nova works for you then go with it!

 

[Kickass]

Would someone be willing to taste my last brew?

I’d be happy to try it but shipping from AL to CA might be pricey and have negative impacts on the beer.

Places that might give you feedback on your beer:
Homebrew club
Homebrew supply store
Local brewery
Regional competition
As you suggested, other nearby homebrewers.

 

[hottpeper13]

pH my friend, pH! I've found that a 4.9-5.2 mash pH for pils and light lagers makes a cleaner, crisper beer. Using RO water I use ~ 2% acidulated malt for these beers. Why not that much in ales is because of the crystal malts lower the pH. I mash my bitters and blonde ales at 5.2 also.

 

[hilljack13]

What kind of cool lager fermenting vessel? A fridge may need a through disassembly to root out the bad beasties that trash the yeasties. It has many more hiding places than a stand alone freezer.

I have the Spike Glycol chiller and then it goes to keg (same as my ales) and then to the kegerator where it sits ~0F. Current brew has been in there two months

Sorry to hear you're having these issues.
As mentioned before, sourness points to infections.

A few Qs:

1. Are you doing anything differently between fermenting lagers vs. ales, aside from fermenting at different temperatures?
2. Are you using the glycol chiller with immersion coil only for Lagers and not for Ales?
3. Are you making starters from the dry Lager yeast or pitching double packages?
4. How long does it take between pitching yeast and getting active fermentation? Does it take significantly longer for your Lagers than for ales?
5. What kind of cleaner and sanitizer are you using?

1. I don't think, but could be some minor thing I am doing and just don't realize it
2. I use the glycol chiller for ales as well, just different temps.
3. No starters. Two packs of yeast for lagers. Sometimes for ales if it is a big one!
4. Around 24 hours. I have some pressure on the FV so sometimes it might go a day or two while that builds. But never had a yeast start slow.
5. I use the Alkaline brewery wash on all the stainless. then a spray bottle of starsan. I think its a 32oz bottle and I usually pour at least a half ounce or more so I think I overdo the amount.

is there a reason for only using dry?

Cost and amount of brewing I do. I have the same dry yeast I bought two years ago. I guess I could always freeze the liquid but I wouldn't order unless I had a brew day planned.

pH my friend, pH! I've found that a 4.9-5.2 mash

I have a pH meter, I find it reads around 5.5 - 5.6 so I add some acid to bring it close to 5.2. If I remember I might let it sit around 5.3. Maybe I need to look at this closer?

 

[hilljack13]

Unexpected sour or funk suggests something wild made it into your brewing...

Could be for this one. The diacetyl taste is definitely not there like the others, but something is.

 

[hilljack13]

some good news...after another week of lagering, my oktoberfest is somewhat decent!! I poured a 4oz sample and noticed the funky smell wasn't there. Taste was not bad, not sour like it was. I'm leaning toward time. Need more time. I think this keg is going to be a bit better in a few weeks and I'll be able to make it through!

 

[AmarikinBrew]

Here's my notes on S23 Lager Yeast:

Crystal intolerant, less attenuation the more crystal malt

"plum" lower than 59f -might be good for dark lagers!
"some" ester @59f
"light ester" @63f -which ages out -even if under pitched -86% attenuation, flavor and dry hops is preserved

"West European lager yeast" -Czech? Urquell?

Now PLUM could be SOUR to some ppl

Didn't you say you warm fermented with this one?

 

[hilljack13]

Didn't you say you warm fermented with this one?

It was 52-58 depending on timeline.