Starter for Lager

[Jag75]

I was wondering if a Lager yeast says to ferment @50-55 f is it bad to pitch it in the starter @70. Just thought about it this morning. It's on a stir plate and will be brewing today . Did I mess up my yeast or is there not enough sugars in the starter to cause it to ferment . I read that before I pitch I need to get the wort and starter to same temp (53f).

 

[str1p3s]

That's a little warm for my taste, but I doubt it will make difference. It would matter even less if you cold crashed the starter and decanted before pitching. If the yeast threw off any undesirable compounds resulting from the warm temps, it would be dumped when decanting.

I'm no scientist, but given that you are brewing today and you don't have much of a choice, I'd say go ahead as planned and make a note of it if you want to try a different approach next time.

 

[kh54s10]

It seems you have 2 questions in your post. One is about temperature. It is best to have the starter and fermenter temperature within 5 degrees of each other. But it will not kill the yeast. It is also best to have the wort and yeast close to the optimum fermentation temperature but it would not be terrible to pitch a bit warm then cool to the proper fermentation temperature as long as it doesn't take a long time getting there.

The other puzzling part of your post is: " Did I mess up my yeast or is there not enough sugars in the starter to cause it to ferment?" I don't know what you are asking here?? Have you made a starter of the proper size for the lager? If so there should be the correct amount of sugars. If not then there wouldn't be enough and you will not have the proper cell count to ferment the lager. It will still ferment but could cause off flavors by forcing the yeast to reproduce enough to ferment the wort.

 

[Jag75]

Maybe I should of worded it better . Should I have my starter around 50 degrees. I just dont have a place to put put my stir plate where it's that cold . I plan on putting my starter in the fridge when I start brewing to get it to 50 degrees and then pitch .
It's a 1L starter

 

[kh54s10]

I would take it off the stirplate with enough time to chill it to the fermentation temperature.

IMO, One liter is very small for a lager. Did you use a yeast starter calculator?

 

[Jag75]

I would take it off the stirplate with enough time to chill it to the fermentation temperature.

IMO, One liter is very small for a lager. Did you use a yeast starter calculator?

No

 

[Jag75]

So when a starter is made for a lager do people have their stir plate in a fridge or a cold area while the yeast cells multiply?

 

[couchsending]

If your goal is to grow yeast quickly then even lager starters should be done at room temps to grow the maximum amount of yeast.

Ideal practice is to make them a few more days in advance than you would an ale yeast.

Starter for say 2 days at room temp 1-2 days of crashing in the fridge. Morning of brew day decant as much of the liquid as possible and make a vitality starter with either first runnings or some DME and get that going at close to the same temp you plan to pitch at. Pitch the whole starter which ideally will be rather active when you pitch it.

I’ve found it’s best to overpitch a bit more than advertised. I aim for 2mil/ml/*plato for 12 Plato beers. Never need a diacetyl rest and never had diacetyl. Ferment at 46-50 depending on your yeast. You will retain more of the delicate malt complexities found in the best lager beers.

 

[Cantina De Jefe]

+1 on the chill and decant. I am ramping up my lager starters beginning a week and half before brew day. 10 gallon batch from a single omega pouch. The first 2 steps are at room temp followed by chill and decant. The last step is a ferm temp. This is my 3rd lager and so this time i will chill the wort to ferm temp before pitching.

 

[Jag75]

Thanks couch . I just found a thread and it said exactly what you said about growing cells at room temp even though it's a lager yeast . So my starter was made yesterday, I will decant the wort off of the yeast . Then brew today and put a little of the wort on top of my starter at 50degrees . Place the flask and fermenter in the chest freezer that set to 50 until tomorrow morning then pitch the starter. Do I have that right?

 

[Dland]

Mostly I brew lagers, and mostly with 34/70 or S-189 dry yeast which dose not need starter, so I don't know about some of your question. But is it OK to pitch into wort if still on the warm side? In my experience yes. 70 is a little high, as noted before, but if the choice is between pitching a little high and leaving wort un pitched for any length of time, I'll always pitch away.

My normal fermentation temp is around 54F, and with my set up, I know if I pitch at 65 or 70, it will be a fermentation temp within 12 house or so. It is better to start the yeast off a little warmer than fermentation temp than a little colder. Colder will just result in slower start. The yeast activity in the first 12 hours is mainly cell division anyway, which goes better warm than cold.

 

[Jag75]

@Dland , yeah I plan on just leaving it unpitched over night to allow the wort to get to 53. Then I will pitch in the morning . I just got freaked out for a second thinking I screwed up by keeping the starter at room temp. This is my first Lager so I'm a little nervous .

 

[Cantina De Jefe]

If you are under-pitching dont worry about pitching at ferm temp since there will be a lag anyways. Its the over pitching that should be done at ferm temps since there will be much shorter lag times. This is how most prefer to pitch to get fast and clean fermentations. There seems to be an added advantage that going with big yeast counts and fast fermentations it helps preserve vitality when reusing the yeast from back to back batches.

 

[couchsending]

Thanks couch . I just found a thread and it said exactly what you said about growing cells at room temp even though it's a lager yeast . So my starter was made yesterday, I will decant the wort off of the yeast . Then brew today and put a little of the wort on top of my starter at 50degrees . Place the flask and fermenter in the chest freezer that set to 50 until tomorrow morning then pitch the starter. Do I have that right?

Definitely crash the starter for at least 24 hours before decanting. Most lager yeasts don’t like to flocc and you need those late floccers to finish attenuation.

Is that as fast as you can get it to pitching temps? If so then that’ll have to do. Ideally the faster you can get the wort cooled and quicker the yeast become active the better. Pitching a large amount of active yeast into a wort with a pH close to 5.0 helps with this.

Do you have an aeration setup?

What yeast are you using? Sorry if you said that.

 

[str1p3s]

So my starter was made yesterday, I will decant the wort off of the yeast

You can only decant if you cold crashed it first to force the yeast to fall to the bottom , otherwise you will be dumping a lot of yeast out with the liquid

 

[wmubronco]

FWIW... I was limited on time as well when making my starter for my Czech Pils the night before (starter at about 65F). Had no activity by next day when I was collecting in conical.... pitched into 15 gallons at 50F..... no activity for about 3 days, and then it ramped up.

I only did about a 2L starter with 1 Wyeast pack. It'll be good by end of schedule, another week at 50F, then dropping to 40F for 4 weeks.

 

[Jag75]

@couchsending . Its WLP820 I think Oktoberfest/marzen. I dont have an aeration set up I usually just stir really good and get it to foam up. I can probably get it 53 pretty fast I was just gonna wait till morning to decant the starter. But from what @str1p3s said I think I'm stuck between a rock and a hard place . I figured if I put it in the fridge over night I could decant but the time isnt long enough from what I'm understanding. So now I'm just have to do what I gotta do.

Note to self , start a lager starter a few days before a brew to cold crash and decant .

 

[Jag75]

FWIW... I was limited on time as well when making my starter for my Czech Pils the night before (starter at about 65F). Had no activity by next day when I was collecting in conical.... pitched into 15 gallons at 50F..... no activity for about 3 days, and then it ramped up.

I only did about a 2L starter with 1 Wyeast pack. It'll be good by end of schedule, another week at 50F, then dropping to 40F for 4 weeks.

I may have to stick the flask in the fridge until I'm done brewing and get the wort down to 53 and pitch all contents in the flask.

 

[couchsending]

Don’t worry about decanting it, just try to get it close to your pitching temp before you pitch it in. It’s more important to get yeast in there and working right away than decanting off the liquid. How big is your starter?

 

[Cantina De Jefe]

The other thing which could help with the under-pitching and warm starter ferm is to do a diacyle rest after 2-3 weeks of fermentation. Just let the beer free rise to 65 over a few days before cold crashing. I do this about a week or more before i plan to keg. It will allow for full attenuation and cleanup of diacyle and un-wanted esters

 

[Jag75]

Don’t worry about decanting it, just try to get it close to your pitching temp before you pitch it in. It’s more important to get yeast in there and working right away than decanting off the liquid. How big is your starter?

1L

 

[Jag75]

The other thing which could help with the under-pitching and warm starter ferm is to do a diacyle rest after 2-3 weeks of fermentation. Just let the beer free rise to 65 over a few days before cold crashing. I do this about a week or more before i plan to keg. It will allow for full attenuation and cleanup of diacyle and un-wanted esters

I planned on fermenting @53 for about 7 days then slowly bring temp up to 66/67 and hold that for a few days then slowly dropping down to 38 and lager for 5 months.

 

[Cantina De Jefe]

I planned on fermenting @53 for about 7 days then slowly bring temp up to 66/67 and hold that for a few days then slowly dropping down to 38 and lager for 5 months.

It might not be done at 7 days. I did a low gravity helles that just finished after about 15 days and i pitched a 2 step starter (~1.75mil/ml/°) which was the equavalent of 4 yeast pouches per 5 gallons. I've been told that to ferment in 7 days you need to be at like 2.5 million cells/ml/° plato. Remember that lagers take twice as much yeast and twice as long as comparable ales.

https://www.brewersfriend.com/yeast-pitch-rate-and-starter-calculator/

 

[Jag75]

It might not be done at 7 days. I did a low gravity helles that just finished after about 15 days and i pitched a 2 step starter (~1.75mil/ml/°) which was the equavalent of 4 yeast pouches per 5 gallons. I've been told that to ferment in 7 days you need to be at like 2.5 million cells/ml/° plato. Remember that lagers take twice as much yeast and twice as long as comparable ales.

https://www.brewersfriend.com/yeast-pitch-rate-and-starter-calculator/

Holy moly ok . This is gonna be an experience lol. Thank you all who are helping me along with this Lager .

 

[str1p3s]

You WILL end up with beer at the end of all this, so try not to sweat it too much

 

[Cantina De Jefe]

There's a learning curve like everything but you will be happy with the results. With each beer style i finds there is a different appreciation for particular processes, so the more styles you can create the better rounded you will become as a homebrewer. It took me a whole 5 gallons of stout to figure out how to get the carb correct for serving on nitro. With lagers its a lot of yeast so starters and learning harvesting techniques. On the positive note the extended lagering phase isn't totally necessary to enjoy the beer. I lagered my pilsner for a week and it tasted amazing. Now im doing double brew days. 10 gal of ale and 10 gal of lager so i can let the lager sit longer without a gap in the pipeline.

 

[Jag75]

@Cantina De Jefe . That's awesome man . That's what it's about. I figured it was time to venture into Lagers so here we go . Cheers !

 

[McKnuckle]

Here’s another lager ferm protocol for you... (and as you can see, brewers have varying techniques and we all think our beer is good. )

Pitch around 65° and place in chamber set to 50°.

Ferment for 5 days at 50°. At end of day 5, ramp temp up 2° at night before bed and 2° in the morning before work until you hit 60°. Hold at 60° for 2 or 3 days. Then drop back to 45° in 5° increments and hold there. You should be around 14-15 days at this point.

Then transfer to keg and place in keezer; mine is set to 40°, so the drop is in sequence with what came just before.

Put on gas immediately, and avoid tapping it for 2 weeks. At week 3 you’ll start to be amazed. It blooms at that point.

Lagers are just as easy as ales. Be patient and take it slow. Good luck!

 

[Jag75]

Thanks Mcknuckle !

 

[Jag75]

 

[WestMichBrewer]

No matter how many beers I make, this is always and still a very welcome sight!