Star San, calcium and magnesium

[ebbelwoi]

I read in this thread that calcium and magnesium will make a Star San solution cloudy. I recently discovered (inadvertently) that it will cloud up if I use straight tap water, but will remain clear if I use the inline filter.

You can knock down Calcium and Magnesium with 5.2 buffer or starsan, Calcium and Magnesium phosphate are both very insoluble and are what make starsan solutions cloudy.

My water report gives me a hardness rating of 31. I didn't get separate readings for calcium and magnesium (I'm in Japan, and my wife was the one who talked to the water company on the phone). She was told that the hardness figure was a combination of calcium, magnesium and something else. Any idea what that might be?

FWIW, the alkalinity was given as 27. I assume that's as CaCO3, but don't know for sure.

Also, would anyone happen to know at what concentrations Star San becomes cloudy?

If nothing else, it's good to know my filter works, I suppose.

 

[ncbrewer]

From what I've found, 31 hardness is only slightly hard. But my water department told me ours is 50 ppm - a Five Star rep told me that is high enough to turn cloudy. Unfortunately I didn't ask about what hardness is required to turn it cloudy. You could try calling about it.

 

[RPh_Guy]

Who cares if it's cloudy?

 

[ncbrewer]

Who cares if it's cloudy?

Mine turns cloudy, and the items have a slimy feel that they don't have with distilled water. I'm a little concerned about what the slimy substance is.

 

[RPh_Guy]

Short contact time should eliminate the slime. There's no need for soaking.

As @ebbelwoi pointed out, it's likely phosphate salts precipitating, nothing harmful.

...But if you want to use distilled water it's all good.

 

[kh54s10]

When I lived in Rhode Island my Starsan never clouded with tap water. Sometimes it felt a little slimy. Now in Florida my tap water makes it slightly cloudy. Sometimes it feels a little slimy. Not much difference.

pH stays the same, so I am sure it is working.

 

[ebbelwoi]

From what I've read, cloudy Star San indicates hardness in your water. It's a result of calcium and magnesium precipitating out of the solution (mostly calcium, I've read).

I'm wondering if I can use that cloudiness to estimate the hardness of my filtered tap water. My unfiltered tap water has a hardness of 31, and makes Star San cloudy. I don't know the hardness of my filtered tap water, but I do know that it doesn't make Star San cloudy. Tomorrow, I'm planning to mix up a 50/50 unfiltered tap water/RO water and see if it clouds up.

 

[RPh_Guy]

I'm wondering if I can use that cloudiness to estimate the hardness of my filtered tap water.

You know you can have it tested by a lab or use an actual kit designed to reliably measure it, right?
Why are you wondering about hardness?

 

[ebbelwoi]

You know you can have it tested by a lab or use an actual kit designed to reliably measure it, right?
Why are you wondering about hardness?

If I can do it myself for ten cents' worth of Star San, I'd prefer that option. I thought it was useful to know the hardness of one's water when brewing beer. Am I mistaken?

 

[RPh_Guy]

Chloride, sulfate, sodium and magnesium contribute flavor, so it's good to know those.

Knowing the alkalinity is helpful for predicting and managing mash pH.

Knowing just the hardness by itself isn't helpful.

 

[505-Brewer]

Calcium phosphate precipitation. Its slimey because of the surfactant (SDBS if I recall).
Use distilled water and filter it through paper towels to remove accumulating dirt etc. from time to time. You could use that solution for a very long time. Perhaps you’ve noticed but its not cheap!

You could mix part tap w part DI and see at what point it gets cloudy. That cloudy crap will stick to your tubing providing an ugly hose and a place for mold to grow. Use it clear and dont look back.

 

[kh54s10]

Calcium phosphate precipitation. Its slimey because of the surfactant (SDBS if I recall).
Use distilled water and filter it through paper towels to remove accumulating dirt etc. from time to time. You could use that solution for a very long time. Perhaps you’ve noticed but its not cheap!

You could mix part tap w part DI and see at what point it gets cloudy. That cloudy crap will stick to your tubing providing an ugly hose and a place for mold to grow. Use it clear and dont look back.

Cloudy does not make the solution less effective. It is just the Starsan acid reacting with something that is already in the water. And Starsan is a cheap way to avoid infections. My 16 ounce bottle lasted 7 years. I now have a 32 ounce bottle so I don't expect to need more until the year 2033

 

[505-Brewer]

Cloudy does not make the solution less effective. It is just the Starsan acid reacting with something that is already in the water. And Starsan is a cheap way to avoid infections. My 16 ounce bottle lasted 7 years. I now have a 32 ounce bottle so I don't expect to need more until the year 2033

Good for you!

I never claimed it did. (Although if the ppt leads to a big pH change then it could)

Although it could lead to mineral deposits on tubing etc which can lead to problems as mentioned. Some folks throw it out when its cloudy from what I can tell. Keeping it crystal clear is simple and might get that bottle to 2077.

 

[ncbrewer]

I emailed Five Star about the hard water turning cloudy. The answer was “The cloudiness you are experiencing is completely normal. It is just the acids in Starsan reacting to the minerals in the water. It is still going to be completely safe and fine to use.”

Later, I called - talked to Courtney - and asked specifically about the slimy feel. She asked what I used for cleaning - I answered Oxi Clean. I was told the slimy feel was from the soap (Oxi Clean) the parts were previously washed in. I told her this does not happen when using distilled water. She insisted it was the soap (Oxi). She also told me Star San is a one-time use material and is only good for one hour. After that it becomes ineffective and should be dumped. This phone call was not a good experience for me.

I'm passing this information along for you to use as you see fit. I haven't heard from Charley Talley lately. Maybe he's retired. I'm a little skeptical about the information coming from Five Star now.

 

[RPh_Guy]

Déjà vu

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/threads/star-san-and-water-quality.658376/#post-8444964

 

[mabrungard]

Cloudy does not make the solution less effective. It is just the Starsan acid reacting with something that is already in the water. And Starsan is a cheap way to avoid infections. My 16 ounce bottle lasted 7 years. I now have a 32 ounce bottle so I don't expect to need more until the year 2033

If the solution is used quickly and items are not left in the solution for long, I agree. It is still effective when cloudy. But if a slime is allowed to accumulate, it is a nice footing for spoilers.

I'm not sure I would characterize Starsan as cheap and its not effective AT ALL in preventing mold infections since that solution does not inactivate spores. If brewers want cheap and effective, iodophor is every bit as effective on the organisms that Starsan is plus it does kill mold spores and is not affected by hard water.

I found this out a couple of years ago via some of the esteemed contributors on this forum and the AHA Forum and I haven't looked back at starsan since. Iodophor is my primary disinfectant and every once in a while I'll use starsan.

I used to see little mold spots in my fermenter on occasion, but I never see them after switching to Iodophor.

PS: Every once in a long while, I do use bleach solution. But it is not ideal for brewing since it will produce chlorophenols if that solution isn't completely rinsed from your equipment. Consider this the Atomic Option.

 

[RPh_Guy]

Iodophor is a good option. Staining may be an issue if you worry about appearance.

Some nitpicking:
We shouldn't need to prevent mold since mold requires oxygen to grow. Even without sanitizing, you shouldn't have mold growth inside the fermenter. Fix the process.

Bleach can be used at low enough concentration in conjunction with vinegar to be non-rinse and avoid chlorophenols.

 

[505-Brewer]

Mold will grow on the bucket lid if you store star san in a bucket. Chlorine dioxide is a great sanitizer and there are simple test strips to know the concentration. Its a dissolved gas but if you store the solution cold it keeps really well. Also not cheap.

Key is it does not produce any chlorine so no chlorophenols. Commonly used to sani commercial fermenters.

 

[RPh_Guy]

Chlorine dioxide is a great sanitizer

Thanks, my LHBS sells that.

 

[505-Brewer]

You can use citric acid to activate it which you might have if you’ve ever explored meads.

You might find this link useful.

https://www.birkocorp.com/resources/blog/white_papers/principles-of-cleaning-and-sanitizing/

 

[RPh_Guy]

OK, so it's powdered bleach. That'll do.

 

[505-Brewer]

Not bleach!

https://www.birkocorp.com/resources/blog/post-rinse-sanitizing-with-chlorine-dioxide-its-a-gas
/

 

[RPh_Guy]

I guess you're right. Hypochlorous acid/ sodium hypochlorite seem to be minor products if you hit the correct pH.

 

[HTH1975]

How difficult is it to obtain PAA in the US? I use this for sanitising everything in my brewery process.

 

[cire]

How difficult is it to obtain PAA in the US? I use this for sanitising everything in my brewery process.

Yes, I wondered that too. Used bleach successfully for years and wouldn't risk using Star San, but peracetic acid makes sanitising equipment an easy task.

 

[kh54s10]

I've used Starsan for 7 1/2 years. Got mold in the blow off container once. So mold is not an issue for me.

I looked at Iodaphor but was worried about staining everything, not just the brewing equipment.

Bleach just seems like too much work to soak then make sure it is well rinsed. Once rinsed is anything still really sanitary.

I also use Oxyclean. I do get slimy from it if I leave things soaking in it for days. It rinses off with a lot of water.

 

[ncbrewer]

If the solution is used quickly and items are not left in the solution for long, I agree. It is still effective when cloudy. But if a slime is allowed to accumulate, it is a nice footing for spoilers.

I'm not sure what to make of this comment about slime accumulating. All the equipment gets cleaned after each use. Are you thinking of, for example, a fermenter that gets sanitized, filled with wort, and left to ferment for a couple of weeks? It still seems like cleaning after emptying would take care of it?

 

[mabrungard]

Apparently you haven’t left equipment soaking in starsan solution for a day or two.

 

[505-Brewer]

I guess you're right. Hypochlorous acid/ sodium hypochlorite seem to be minor products if you hit the correct pH.

To be clear one makes Cl2 (bad)
One makes ClO2 (good).
They dont interchange.

So if you use the NaClO2 and acidify it to activate you are all set.

 

[ScrewyBrewer]

If you leave star san sitting in a container for over a week it turns cloudy and develops an oily film on the surface. I use tap water to make the solution and at times leave 5-gallons sitting in the brew room for weeks before dumping it. When I don't like the way it looks I'll just dump it and make a new batch on brewday. I've never really thought of it as being too expensive because even a small bottle lasts me for years.