Spooky season Friday - ahhhghhh! Botulism !

[mashdar]

Also, the empirical evidence is very clear: there's been lots of beer since modern CDC reporting. They work hard to trace sources of cases. To my knowledge, beer has never been a cause of a case.

The real world results are much more reassuring than any lab study could be. You can't test every permutation in a lab, and people do a lot of dumb stuff. You're more likely to get struck by lightning while being bitten by a shark than to get botulism from beer.

edit: typos

 

[whoaru99]

How could it ever be enjoyable with that underlying worry. Such a thing never really goes away I think.

 

[zosimus]

How could it ever be enjoyable with that underlying worry. Such a thing never really goes away I think.

It's really a 'ahgh fudge it' mentality...
I mean although botulism is very toxic, with modern medicine only 10% of patients die.
Also it often goes undiagnosed for too long before effective treatment, so if it's caught earlier, your likelihood of survival is higher.... Knowing that you were consuming homebrew it's probably a good thing to tell the ER doctor so they know to test for it early

 

[day_trippr]

Gotta say this whole "Botulism Week" gig isn't the hook someone thought it was

Cheers! ("Ain't no 'Shark Week' for Sure")

 

[mac_1103]

On the plus side, it will get rid of your crow's feet and cure your migraines.

 

[whoaru99]

If the lightning strike doesn't get you first surely the slip in the bathroom or car accident will. LOL.

 

[worlddivides]

It's really a 'ahgh fudge it' mentality...
I mean although botulism is very toxic, with modern medicine only 10% of patients die.
Also it often goes undiagnosed for too long before effective treatment, so if it's caught earlier, your likelihood of survival is higher.... Knowing that you were consuming homebrew it's probably a good thing to tell the ER doctor so they know to test for it early

"You think you have botulism? May I ask why?"
"I was consuming homebrew."
"..."
"Uh, as in beer that was made at home."
"Yeah, I know what it is. I just don't see the connection."

I think you're worrying about something that is so incredibly and extremely unlikely but aren't worried about things that are much more likely. Unless you're actively trying to get botulism, I don't see it happening from beer.

 

[zosimus]

"You think you have botulism? May I ask why?"
"I was consuming homebrew."
"..."
"Uh, as in beer that was made at home."
"Yeah, I know what it is. I just don't see the connection."

I think you're worrying about something that is so incredibly and extremely unlikely but aren't worried about things that are much more likely. Unless you're actively trying to get botulism, I don't see it happening from beer.

Next week will be E. Coli from homebrew

 

[mac_1103]

don't try to carry 5 or ten gallons of wort down the cellar stairs

I still do this every brew day. Danger is my middle name.

 

[whoaru99]

Be sure it's in a glass carboy too for added bonus points.

 

[zosimus]

Most home brewers bottle and most store them at room temperature. I keg now, but I've brewed hundreds of gallons of beer that I bottled and stored at room temperature and botulism is something that never even crossed my mind. I've not only never met a homebrewer who got botulism, I've never even heard of one.

I'm a pretty OCD guy myself, so I have thought about the risks of botulism before... just never in association with beer. I can't even imagine how wort or beer could produce botulism. Before fermentation starts, there's likely too much oxygen there for it to happen, plus it's at too cool of a temperature. Then once fermentation starts, the pH drops drastically and you've got ethanol being produced. It's just an extremely inhospitable environment for it.

I wonder what's the longest you've left at room temp in bottles? I have a batch I bottled in April and have been off and on in fridge and room temp. Been a couple of weeks at room temp though and I'm skeptical. I used pH strips and it's definitely a bit high but I suspect the pH strips are inaccurate.

 

[worlddivides]

I wonder what's the longest you've left at room temp in bottles? I have a batch I bottled in April and have been off and on in fridge and room temp. Been a couple of weeks at room temp though and I'm skeptical. I used pH strips and it's definitely a bit high but I suspect the pH strips are inaccurate.

3 years.

 

[zosimus]

3 years.

You must be a demi-god

 

[zosimus]

3 years.

Did it taste good? I've heard flavor begins to suck...

 

[worlddivides]

Did it taste good? I've heard flavor begins to suck...

It was a lambic-style sour that kept getting more and more sour very very slowly in the bottle, so the pH of the last bottle I drank was probably around 3.4 to 3.5. I bottled it after almost a year in a tertiary glass carboy and it was pretty sour at that point, but it got progressively more sour as time went on. I love sours, so I thought it tasted better after 3 years than it did early on.

 

[zosimus]

So I've learned that some styles like IPA and pale ales typically finish closer to around 5 pH. The alcohol probably still a problem for the bacteria

 

[zosimus]

It was a lambic-style sour that kept getting more and more sour very very slowly in the bottle, so the pH of the last bottle I drank was probably around 3.4 to 3.5. I bottled it after almost a year in a tertiary glass carboy and it was pretty sour at that point, but it got progressively more sour as time went on. I love sours, so I thought it tasted better after 3 years than it did early on.

I guess that's a bit different non-sours being that pH can be higher.
Just reading about pH level of certain beers, some beers like pale ales get close or higher than 5 pH which is enough for growth of the bacteria. Of course alcohol content likely counteracts that

 

[zosimus]

https://www.sciencedirect.com/scien... (>4.60,growth and potential toxin production.

This scientific article seems to indicate that there is a higher risk with high pH, low alcohol beers

 

[worlddivides]

I guess that's a bit different non-sours being that pH can be higher.
Just reading about pH level of certain beers, some beers like pale ales get close or higher than 5 pH which is enough for growth of the bacteria. Of course alcohol content likely counteracts that

At this point, I'm not sure if there's anything we can do to convince you otherwise, so it might just be best to give up homebrewing altogether. But to sum up, alcohol, pH, and hops' antibacterial effects make botulism incredibly unlikely. Boiling your beer after it's done is just going to ruin it, so if you're considering doing that, just stick to commercial brews and find a different hobby.

 

[mashdar]

I have had Westvleteren 12 (belgian trappist quad) bottles from 0 to 10 years old. I'd say the best bottles were 3-5 years old. Definitely 7+ shows its age, but is still drinkable.

I've heard some big barleywines are still good after 10 years.

Hoppy beer shows age much faster.

 

[Broken Crow]

the vessel with the urine
is the basin with botulism
the kettle with the brew-bag
holds the brew that is true

 

[Closet Fermenter]

I can a lot of garden vegetables. Botulism is on my radar. It only takes about 150°F to destroy the toxins. However, the spores are a little harder to kill. The good news is that healthy adults can tolerate the spores without adverse effects. I suppose that there are limits to this.
As mentioned, it takes extreme temperatures to kill the spores, and even freezing temperatures won’t kill them. Acidic conditions are a problem for them, so pickles, tomatoes, etc only require water bath canning. Low acid foods like green beans require pressure canning to achieve the high temperature above the boiling point.

Use your Starsan, be clean, RDWHAHB!

 

[passedpawn]

I can a lot of garden vegetables. Botulism is on my radar. It only takes about 150°F to destroy the toxins. However, the spores are a little harder to kill. The good news is that healthy adults can tolerate the spores without adverse effects. I suppose that there are limits to this.
As mentioned, it takes extreme temperatures to kill the spores, and even freezing temperatures won’t kill them. Acidic conditions are a problem for them, so pickles, tomatoes, etc only require water bath canning. Low acid foods like green beans require pressure canning to achieve the high temperature above the boiling point.

Use your Starsan, be clean, RDWHAHB!

I can jalapenos with vinegar and no heat. pH works great. 1/3 vinegar, 2/3 water, last forever. Pickling FTW.

 

[Closet Fermenter]

I can jalapenos with vinegar and no heat. pH works great. 1/3 vinegar, 2/3 water, last forever. Pickling FTW.

I do jalapeños as well. I do 50/50 vinegar and water with a 10 minute boiling water bath. I have had jars for years and opened them up and had no problems.

Edit: Typo; only a 10 minute water bath. I don’t want mush!

 

[sibelman]

it could happen, in theory

I'm assuming

empirical evidence

I'm not gonna worry about this imaginary danger. Not because there are other, more likely risks in brewing and drinking beer. Rather, because it's an imaginary danger.

 

[worlddivides]

I also thought some more about how ridiculous this is. Humans have been brewing and drinking beer for around 14,000 years. It is either the third or fourth most drank beverage on the planet right now. Homebrewing today is far more safe and consistent than professional brewing from hundreds or thousands of years ago where no one knew about yeast, bacteria, or so on, and beer was generally considered safer than water back then. And in those days, spontaneous fermentation was the norm where you let all the microorganisms into the wort.

Being OCD is one thing, but this is like being terrified of making wine because you think the French government will sue you for encroaching on their domain.

 

[zosimus]

I also thought some more about how ridiculous this is. Humans have been brewing and drinking beer for around 14,000 years. It is either the third or fourth most drank beverage on the planet right now. Homebrewing today is far more safe and consistent than professional brewing from hundreds or thousands of years ago where no one knew about yeast, bacteria, or so on, and beer was generally considered safer than water back then. And in those days, spontaneous fermentation was the norm where you let all the microorganisms into the wort.

Being OCD is one thing, but this is like being terrified of making wine because you think the French government will sue you for encroaching on their domain.

I'm not saying it's rational, actual clinically diagnosed OCD, the 0.00000001% chance of it happening means its stuck in the back of my brain forever and ever.
I am however appreciative of everyone's encouragement to keep brewing on and that does help. I will likely keep brewing because I do like it enough to do so.
Also the people thousands of years ago had a lot more to worry about than beer. Life expectancy was like 30 years old and there was death in every food so you kinda were probably pretty used to being blindsided by sickness

 

[mac_1103]

people thousands of years ago had a lot more to worry about than beer

People today have a lot more to worry about than beer.

 

[Snuffy]

So would a lot us on here, but we prefer the term; "Detail-Oriented".
I suggest simply refraining from brewing in the event of incarceration and in the meantime; a form of active cognitive therapy:
Here's a pic of botulism that you can base a halloween costume on...focus on the fun in translating the image into a human-wearable outfit:
View attachment 859215

Looks like oatmeal with blueberries.

 

[kevin58]

I wonder what's the longest you've left at room temp in bottles? I have a batch I bottled in April and have been off and on in fridge and room temp. Been a couple of weeks at room temp though and I'm skeptical. I used pH strips and it's definitely a bit high but I suspect the pH strips are inaccurate.

I made a Christmas Ale many years ago. A small batch with only about a dozen bottles. I let the bottles sit in my closet for 12 months before ever chilling and cracking one open. We consumed about half that first holiday season and I left the rest in the closet and my wife and I enjoyed one every Christmas for the next three years.

I think you need to let go of this PH bone and move on. Between boiling the wort, the environment produced by the yeast... low oxygen and the presence of alcohol... a natural deterrent is formed that inhibit and is even inhospitable to bacteria... including clostridium botulinum.