Spike - Steam Condenser Lid

[IanMC]

You can use your water source but the water usage will be much higher. Our pump is 6psi. Your supply will most likely be 40psi+.

Okay, thanks for answering that. How does your sprayer respond to different flow rates? I can restrict the flow upstream with a ball valve, which should help with the increased water usage, as long as it doesn't negatively affect the spray. Do you know what the minimum pressure/flow rate necessary is?

Thanks!
Ian

 

[MikeCo]

I was excited about this until I saw the 15-25 GPH figure too. As far as I can tell, the steam slayer doesn't require a pump and uses less water - am I wrong?

 

[matt_m]

Unfortunately the water issue killed the deal for me and I went with a Steam Slayer which I just received and installed late this week. On my 15 gallon kettle with a 5500W, second boil test, I ran at 35% power and used a 6GPM nozzle and the effluent was still not too hot to stick my hands in. I plan to add plumbing to send it to my sump pump.

I really liked the idea of the lid. Hopefully an option can be added after the first round to allow using normal household water pressure so usage can be brought to a reasonable number. My guess is users will modify them pretty quick.

 

[SpikeBrewing]

Okay, thanks for answering that. How does your sprayer respond to different flow rates? I can restrict the flow upstream with a ball valve, which should help with the increased water usage, as long as it doesn't negatively affect the spray. Do you know what the minimum pressure/flow rate necessary is?

Thanks!
Ian

The minimum pressure we recommend with our sprayer is 6psi. This produces enough misting liquid to have the system work properly. This is backed up by 3rd party lab testing for DMS.

I was excited about this until I saw the 15-25 GPH figure too. As far as I can tell, the steam slayer doesn't require a pump and uses less water - am I wrong?

Unfortunately the water issue killed the deal for me and I went with a Steam Slayer which I just received and installed late this week. On my 15 gallon kettle with a 5500W, second boil test, I ran at 35% power and used a 6GPM nozzle and the effluent was still not too hot to stick my hands in. I plan to add plumbing to send it to my sump pump.

I really liked the idea of the lid. Hopefully an option can be added after the first round to allow using normal household water pressure so usage can be brought to a reasonable number. My guess is users will modify them pretty quick.

The nozzle size, flow rate, pump size, etc has all been designed to work with our system. All this is backed up by 3rd party lab testing to confirm DMS is not present.

 

[MikeCo]

The nozzle size, flow rate, pump size, etc has all been designed to work with our system. All this is backed up by 3rd party lab testing to confirm DMS is not present.

Thanks for the explanation. I'm curious - did you test lower flow rates and find that not all the DMS was removed?

 

[IanMC]

Thanks for the explanation. I'm curious - did you test lower flow rates and find that not all the DMS was removed?

This is a good question, and one I'd like to know the answer to also. It seems that other offerings (Steam Slayer, among others) have been able to provide satisfactory results with a much lower flow rate, and I wonder what the disconnect is here. Is it Spike's stance that these other products do not reduce DMS formation sufficiently, and thus the higher flow rate is necessary?

Bobby from Brew Hardware above speculates that the nozzle here is optimized for a lower input pressure, which seems like it might be correct given the stated 6 PSI figure given by Spike.

Perhaps there might be another configuration available in the future that removes the pump and substitutes in a higher PSI sprayer?

Please don't take this as an attack on Spike Brewing - quite the contrary. I'm a very devoted fan of the company, and will probably be buying this no matter what the answer is. However, from a basic engineering standpoint, this should be pretty black and white, and I'd like to see if it's possible to get to the lower flow rate utilized by other brands without a corresponding drop in quality.

 

[Bobby_M]

I'm not speaking for Spike in any way but I speculate that their design priority was to make their unit usable without a cold water supply. To that end, they are using a submersible pump and that pump only makes 6psi. In order to get the right amount of cooling on 6psi, they are using a very high flow spray tip.

They COULD have used a high pressure diaphragm pump to make 100psi out of a bucket and use a restrictive low flow nozzle but the pump would be more expensive.

They COULD decide to sell the unit without the pump AND with a restrictive nozzle that would work on a high pressure cold water supply.

The presence or lack of DMS in the finished beer is more a function of removing an adequate amount of steam during the boil and/or accommodating a vigorous enough boil to remove that DMS into the steam in the first place. This goal is achievable with either a pump and a bucket or a cold water supply line. The only thing that changes is what kind of nozzle is installed to keep the effluent cold enough for the amount of boil input power you want to use. For many people, there is an endless supply of relatively cold, cheap, high pressure water within a few feet of the brewing area. Even if it's 50 feet, thin PE tubing is dirt cheap, cheaper than a pump, and that's one less bucket to jockey around.

 

[tribble222]

Anyone know where to buy a triclamp low flow nozzle? Google has not turned anything up for me but I may not be using the right search terms.

 

[matt_m]

Take a look at the thread on steam condensers--there's a parts list of items you'd need from Bobby and McMaster Carr. But also in one of the videos on the Spike unit, I thought I caught a glimpse of a fitting so possibly you'd just need new nozzle and maybe a fitting or two to adapt.

 

[IanMC]

Take a look at the thread on steam condensers--there's a parts list of items you'd need from Bobby and McMaster Carr. But also in one of the videos on the Spike unit, I thought I caught a glimpse of a fitting so possibly you'd just need new nozzle and maybe a fitting or two to adapt.

This seems like a key point. If the mister is replaceable, then the unit should be easily reconfigurable for a household water hookup.

Looking at the picture that @SpikeBrewing posted earlier (reproduced below), it looks like part G, the mister, is just an NPT part that screws into the underside of the water inlet TC fitting. If so, this is great, and should fix our problem easily.

 

[matt_m]

Agreed. I missed that on the diagram. Probably would want to extend it down a little too since the McMaster Carr nozzles have a 90 degree fan. Don't want it spraying into the tube coming across the lid. Probably just need a short pipe nipple, coupler or reducer, and the nozzle if that part is NPT thread. Probably can get all of that for $20-25 shipped at McMaster Carr.

 

[IanMC]

Agreed. I missed that on the diagram. Probably would want to extend it down a little too since the McMaster Carr nozzles have a 90 degree fan. Don't want it spraying into the tube coming across the lid. Probably just need a short pipe nipple, coupler or reducer, and the nozzle if that part is NPT thread. Probably can get all of that for $20-25 shipped at McMaster Carr.

Nice! Seems like a workable solution. I'd love to hear what @SpikeBrewing thinks about this. Maybe they could offer a package that omits the pump and substitutes in a higher pressure nozzle? We would be extremely grateful!

 

[SpikeBrewing]

We fully understand that HBT is full of DIY homebrewers. We designed a system that out of the box is 100% guaranteed to work correctly and have the testing to verify that. We tested lower flow nozzles and we were not getting the vacuum readings that we wanted and had steam escaping out from the lid. The lid can certainly be DIY'd to connect directly to your water supply and another nozzle can be purchased however obviously there's no way for us to spec this out as everyone's water supply pressure is different. Personally I would always be a little nervous about DMS levels and I'm assuming most brewers aren't going to spend the $1,000's of dollars to have a lab test their beer for DMS levels. However if it tastes good enough for you that's all that matters!

 

[IanMC]

We fully understand that HBT is full of DIY homebrewers. We designed a system that out of the box is 100% guaranteed to work correctly and have the testing to verify that. We tested lower flow nozzles and we were not getting the vacuum readings that we wanted and had steam escaping out from the lid. The lid can certainly be DIY'd to connect directly to your water supply and another nozzle can be purchased however obviously there's no way for us to spec this out as everyone's water supply pressure is different. Personally I would always be a little nervous about DMS levels and I'm assuming most brewers aren't going to spend the $1,000's of dollars to have a lab test their beer for DMS levels. However if it tastes good enough for you that's all that matters!

Thanks for the detailed and thoughtful response. Of course, this totally makes sense. You have to make a product that you know will work for the majority of your customers regardless of factors outside of your control, such as source water pressure, and you certainly can't conduct laboratory testing on myriad configuration possibilities. That said, your assurance that the system can be DIY'd to allow for a home water source is very encouraging. Might you be willing to sell a package at a reduced price that omits the pump, for those of us who want to tinker?

Thanks again!

 

[SpikeBrewing]

Thanks for the detailed and thoughtful response. Of course, this totally makes sense. You have to make a product that you know will work for the majority of your customers regardless of factors outside of your control, such as source water pressure, and you certainly can't conduct laboratory testing on myriad configuration possibilities. That said, your assurance that the system can be DIY'd to allow for a home water source is very encouraging. Might you be willing to sell a package at a reduced price that omits the pump, for those of us who want to tinker?

Thanks again!

Unfortunately since the BOM has 11 different components which comes out to 39,916,800 different combinations if my math is correct. I think our shipping department would quit if we opened up the kit for piecemealing like that.

 

[tribble222]

I'm not sure anyone is asking you to part out all 11 pieces. I think we're just asking for two options: 1) with pump and mister or 2) without pump and mister. I fully understand if it's not worth the energy to separate those out as a business decision. I will be purchasing one regardless.

Edit: I think the number of possible combinations for people to purchase if you parted out all 11 pieces, and no one bought any duplicates of the 11 items, would be 2^11 = 2,048 (this includes the combination of buying nothing as well). I suspect your number may include all permutations, where buying a pump and a mister is a unique combination compared to buying a mister and a pump (order matters), and also include buying 11 of one piece, 10 of one piece, etc.

 

[Spartan1979]

Edit: I think the number of possible combinations for people to purchase if you parted out all 11 pieces, and no one bought any duplicates of the 11 items, would be 2^11 = 2,048 (this includes the combination of buying nothing as well). I suspect your number may include all permutations, where buying a pump and a mister is a unique combination compared to buying a mister and a pump (order matters), and also include buying 11 of one piece, 10 of one piece, etc.

It's been 40+ years since I had Stats, but wouldn't it be something like 11*10*9*8*7*6*5*4*3*2*1? Which would be 39,916,800.

 

[tribble222]

Yeah that's 11 factorial. But I don't believe that's the answer in this case. Think about it this way - if there were 4 items: A, B, C, D. The number of combinations people could purchase, getting no more than one of each item would be: (NONE), A, B, C, D, AB, AC, AD, BC, BD, CD, ABC, ABD, ACD, BCD, ABCD = 16 ways. That is 2^4 = 16. If the formula was 4 factorial the answer would be 4*3*2*1 = 24 ways.

Edit: Here's a link: Combination - Wikipedia

 

[matt_m]

Can I get it with the rubber grip on only the right handle?

That pump appears to be the one from their cooling kit. Its $40 when purchased individually and I'd hope they are marking it up a good bit from their cost when purchased that so it probably doesn't make much difference.

 

[Bobby_M]

I can fully appreciate why a single tried and tested solution is desirable from a vendor perspective. Having sold the slayer for about 2 years, there is always that variable of source water pressure and temperature to deal with. However, flow rate is only one variable. The water temp is a big factor but it looks like erring on the high side of flow rate negates it. I think many people want to try to optimize for both condensing performance and water usage but they would have to be willing to work on it and perhaps buy a few sprayers to make it work.

 

[SpikeBrewing]

When we approached the problem we looked at it two ways (like Bobby mentioned). Do we try to optimize the water usage down to the pint or make sure that absolutely no DMS will be present WITH a factor of saftey since users use products differently than the engineers that designed them

We decided that if we used 5 extra gallons it would have little to no affect on anything. The extra water will be hot and can be used to clean. If you don't need that water to clean you can use it for plants, water the grass, etc. While on paper 10 gallons of usage is less than 15 gallons and therefore better does it really actually make a difference? We decided that it did not.

 

[IanMC]

Has anyone who purchased during the presale received their lid yet? If so, please help us out with some unboxing and testing info!

 

[Rob2010SS]

I just ordered mine today! Hopefully will have it soon and can provide some info. Will keep you all posted, unless someone beats me to the punch.

 

[Alt]

The primary details I would like confirmed are if the OEM nozzle is removable as depicted in the product guide and if so, what connection to the TC cap does it use, e.g. 1/8” NPT, 1/4” NPT, etc. This way if I purchase one and find I’m not satisfied with the pump configuration, I can easily modify to suite my own setup preferences without replacing the entire TC cap/nozzle assembly.

As an aside, it’s too bad the 4” cap doesn’t use some form of pivot attachment to easily rotate open/closed during the boil. Not sure I want to be messing with a clamp, gasket and cap over escaping steam.

 

[SpikeBrewing]

As an aside, it’s too bad the 4” cap doesn’t use some form of pivot attachment to easily rotate open/closed during the boil. Not sure I want to be messing with a clamp, gasket and cap over escaping steam.

We have had this suggestion a couple times however this would significantly increase the price of the unit. Rest assured when the 4" cap is off the steam still goes up the pipe. A 'Pro Tip' is to leave the clamp off and just place the cap/gasket on the ferrule. It will still make a seal and will make it easier to take off if you have multiple hop additions.

 

[binaryc0de]

Interested in this as I brew in a basement with no vent hood. also new to this idea outside of distilling applications... So, two concerns...

1) What about pellet hops? I have a 15 gal SB kettle and I typically have a lot of head space as my batches are 5 gal. Would one put a large muslin bag around the port for pellet hops then?

2) Boil off rate. I like high boil off rates typically because it allows me to keep an on my OG and dial that in by how hard I boil. I assume I was just have to adjust my mashes and change my brewing technique a little

 

[Rob2010SS]

Interested in this as I brew in a basement with no vent hood. also new to this idea outside of distilling applications... So, two concerns...

1) What about pellet hops? I have a 15 gal SB kettle and I typically have a lot of head space as my batches are 5 gal. Would one put a large muslin bag around the port for pellet hops then?

2) Boil off rate. I like high boil off rates typically because it allows me to keep an on my OG and dial that in by how hard I boil. I assume I was just have to adjust my mashes and change my brewing technique a little

A lot of people just go commando with the hops in the kettle. For the most part, this is what I do. I tend to use a hop spider with heavier hop loads though. I'm still not sure what my solution for that will be. I've seen some pictures of people just standing their hop spiders up on the bottom of the kettle and just letting it sit there. I might try this and just position the spider to be under the port on the lid. (When I have an extra $300 to spend, I actually have been thinking about buying the basket from Spike's Solo system to use as a giant hop spider so that I don't take a hit on hop utilization...).

The boil off rate shouldn't be a huge deal. You'll just have to adjust your recipes for it. Typically I boil off a gallon and a half and I account for that in my recipes. With this, you'll just have to account for the smaller boil off. I think I'll actually like the lower boil off rates because I can keep more volume in the kettle!

 

[Rob2010SS]

Lid showed up! Will assemble later this week. Don't have a brew coming up for a couple of weeks yet, unfortunately. As is typical @SpikeBrewing fashion, everything came packaged very nicely!

 

[matt_m]

Inquiring minds want to know...what does the nozzle fitting look like?

 

[Rob2010SS]

Inquiring minds want to know...what does the nozzle fitting look like?

I'll get a picture of it when I get home from work tonight. It's in that second pic, lower left corner of the box.