Sparging when biab?

[kohalajohn]

I've had a few more thoughts:
In all your posts you haven't mentioned beer-preferences or asked about ingredients...Once the unit arrives you'll want to unpack it, learn it (in case you haven't already downloaded and read it: https://www.ontariobeerkegs.com/assets/pdf/BrewZilla-Gen4-Instruction-Manual.pdf), clean it and use it.
There's a few items that haven't been addressed in your posts and I know you're eager to go so:
Make sure and have your cleaning and sanitizing products:
https://www.brewhardware.com/SearchResults.asp?Search=pbw&Submit=
https://www.brewhardware.com/SearchResults.asp?Search=star+san&Submit=
https://www.brewhardware.com/product_p/bkf.htm
And; If you haven't yet ordered ingredients, here's some kits that many on here love:
https://www.brewhardware.com/category_s/1900.htm
Will you be bottling or kegging? Have you yet chosen a fermenter? Heck...you probably already have it planned out so tell us about it... I am vicariously excited for you.

Great links, much appreciated.

I have a Pale Ale in a corny keg now. Spunding valve on. Sitting in a fridge controlled by an InkBird.

 

[Bobby_M]

Bobby do you have a starting rule of thumb on how much additional grain to add to the grain bill on a recipe in order to make up for not sparging?

Everyone sees a different efficiency even though there are theoretical calculations that can be done. A small pourover sparge in an all in one malt pipe is probably 5% higher efficiency than a full volume mash/no sparge so let's just take a guess of 75% and 70% respectively.

On a 5.25 gallon batch of 1.055 OG:
75% efficiency needs 10LB - 10oz of grain
70% efficiency needs 11LB - 7oz of grain
That's +13oz.... let's round it up to 1 pound and call that $1.50

 

[William Gade]

For BIAB I do not sparge, but I do a double dip. I pull the bag the out and heat water up to sparge temperature and drop the bag back in and stir it for 10 to 15 minutes. Gives slightly more efficiency. You can also double mill for BIAB. You can add 1/2 pound of base grain instead for 5-gallon brew. - Bill_G

 

[doug293cz]

For BIAB I do not sparge, but I do a double dip. I pull the bag the out and heat water up to sparge temperature and drop the bag back in and stir it for 10 to 15 minutes. Gives slightly more efficiency. You can also double mill for BIAB. You can add 1/2 pound of base grain instead for 5-gallon brew. - Bill_G

Are you adding the heated water to your initial drained wort, and then dropping the bag into the mix, or are you dropping the bag into just the heated water? If the latter, you are doing a batch sparge.

Brew on

 

[William Gade]

I am heating up initial drained wort

 

[doug293cz]

I am heating up initial drained wort

This answer still does not clarify exactly what your process is.

Brew on

 

[Bobby_M]

He wrote that he pulls the bag and heats "water" up to sparge temp and drops the bag "back in". That sounds to me that wrote "water" but actually meant "wort". If you go off that assumption, his clarification post tracks.

If that's the case, I'm not really sure what the point of pulling the bag out is unless it's his method of keeping the bag from getting burned. I'd be more concerned about the excess oxygen exposure.

 

[doug293cz]

He wrote that he pulls the bag and heats "water" up to sparge temp and drops the bag "back in". That sounds to me that wrote "water" but actually meant "wort". If you go off that assumption, his clarification post tracks.

If that's the case, I'm not really sure what the point of pulling the bag out is unless it's his method of keeping the bag from getting burned. I'd be more concerned about the excess oxygen exposure.

I think you're correct. Sounds like he is just doing a mash-out. I really wish people would be more careful with their terminology, as it makes things so much easier to understand.

Brew on

 

[Broken Crow]

He wrote that he pulls the bag and heats "water" up to sparge temp and drops the bag "back in". That sounds to me that wrote "water" but actually meant "wort". If you go off that assumption, his clarification post tracks.

If that's the case, I'm not really sure what the point of pulling the bag out is unless it's his method of keeping the bag from getting burned. I'd be more concerned about the excess oxygen exposure.

I think you're correct. Sounds like he is just doing a mash-out. I really wish people would be more careful with their terminology, as it makes things so much easier to understand.

Brew on

Maybe I should bump this thread:
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/thread...d-or-entertainment-for-regular-hbters.701252/
in the hopes of new users reading it.......OR: should I wait and see if @William Gade responds with more vagueness.
William; Welcome to the fun! ...please be more specific though or you risk becoming fodder for the entertainment of the regulars on here. This is well-meant...always glad to have new members, but lack of details can be frustrating for all interested parties.

 

[William Gade]

Hello, I start out with RO Water and add chemicals, then heat water up 165 degrees, add bag and grain. Mashing 156 for 60 minutes with insulted cooler bag over the pot. Removed bag of grains. Heated "mash" up to 170. I did remove bag so it will not burn it. Put bag of grain back in and stirred for 10 to 15 minutes. I found out that this step sometimes-called Mash Out. Remove grains and began boil. The Mash Out increase my pre-boil Gravity from 1.042 to 1.050. All in one 15-gallon pot, easy cleanup. The last beer I brewed was a Cream Ale. - Bill Gade

 

[doug293cz]

Hello, I start out with RO Water and add chemicals, then heat water up 165 degrees, add bag and grain. Mashing 156 for 60 minutes with insulted cooler bag over the pot. Removed bag of grains. Heated "mash" up to 170. I did remove bag so it will not burn it. Put bag of grain back in and stirred for 10 to 15 minutes. I found out that this step sometimes-called Mash Out. Remove grains and began boil. The Mash Out increase my pre-boil Gravity from 1.042 to 1.050. All in one 15-gallon pot, easy cleanup. The last beer I brewed was a Cream Ale. - Bill Gade

Thanks for the clarification.

The fact that doing a mash-out (heat to, and hold at 170°F) increases your pre-boil SG indicates that starch conversion was not complete at the end of your 60 minute mash. The higher temp speeds up gelatinization and hydrolysis (the two steps required to convert starch to sugar), while also speeding up the denaturing of the amylase enzymes. But, the enzymes do not denature instantly at any particular temperature, so they can still keep catalyzing hydrolysis until they are completely denatured. This continued conversion (at least during the early part of the mash-out) increases the total amount of starch converted, and increases your conversion efficiency. Since mash efficiency = conversion efficiency * lauter efficiency, your mash efficiency is also increased, even though the lauter efficiency is limited to what is obtainable with a no-sparge process.

You should be able to reach the same result either by mashing longer at your typical mash temp, and/or grinding finer which speeds up gelatinization.

Brew on

 

[Bobby_M]

Certainly nothing wrong with a late-mash temp ramp to push the conversion speed ahead a bit, but the whole rigmarole of pulling the bag, heating, replacing, etc can be avoided just by putting a false bottom in to hold the bag off the bottom while you creep the heat upward.

 

[hungupdown]

Maybe we're not even "sparging" at all. Maybe we're just rinsing. Lifting up the mash tun to drain, means most of the wort falls out and many folk just do that and call it good.

Maybe just pushing some cold water down will push out the last of the hot dissolved sugars. There is a benefit to not being too hot and extracting tannins. The commercial brewers would hate this, as it would take much longer to heat up their massive boils. But I'm only making four gallons and I have a 220V heater to do it, so a longer boil time doesn't matter much to me.

A rinse, or quick sparge, only has time to wash sugars off the surface of the grain.
For sugars to have time to diffuse out, from within the grain, it needs a slow sparge. Especially with a coarse crush.
A floating sparge, is a simple way to slow sparge.

At end of mashing, the sugar concentrations in the wort, and within the grain will be fairly similar. A thick mash, with half the water and double the sugar concentration of a thin mash, will finish with twice as much sugar left in the grain.
Fine if slow sparging. But a thin mash is better, if you intend doing just a rinse or quick sparge.

 

[kohalajohn]

Hungup

That's the first time I heard that idea and it is very interesting.

I'd be curious to know what exactly is in a spent mash at the end. Is it just husks? Or do particles still exist, that are storing sugars in their bodies?

I would imagine that a continuous vorlouf would help. Over the hour long vorlauf, more sugars might be washed out of the particle body, and into the liquid wort.

Perhaps the reason biab gets numbers even close to 3v is that they do a full water mash, very thin indeed. sugars are encouraged to come out into the thin solution. And then instead of going for a settled mash bed, these brewers stir the mash, again, and again encouraging sugars to come out into solution.

My equipment does not allow for a floating sparge. So I should use all other avenues to maximize efficiency.

 

[doug293cz]

A rinse, or quick sparge, only has time to wash sugars off the surface of the grain.
For sugars to have time to diffuse out, from within the grain, it needs a slow sparge. Especially with a coarse crush.
A floating sparge, is a simple way to slow sparge.

"Floating sparge" is not a commonly used term in brewing (a quick web search only found one instance.) The correct term is fly sparge. We don't need to keep inventing new terminology for something that already has well understood terminology. A proper fly sparge maintains liquid on top of the grain bed for all, or most of, the sparge. Maintaining liquid on top of the grain bed insures that you are controlling the sparge rate by a controllable run-off rate, rather than letting the sparge water/wort free flow thru the grain bed as fast as it can (what happens with a simple pour-over sparge, and is why a pour over sparge is not nearly as efficient as a true fly sparge.)

If batch sparging, stirring is much more effective for homogenizing the wort concentration (free liquid vs. absorbed/adsorbed liquid) than waiting for diffusion to do its thing.

At end of mashing, the sugar concentrations in the wort, and within the grain will be fairly similar. A thick mash, with half the water and double the sugar concentration of a thin mash, will finish with twice as much sugar left in the grain.

This is correct if you just do a full run-off before sparging, but how much sugar remains in the grain after any sparging depends on the sparge process.

Brew on

 

[doug293cz]

I'd be curious to know what exactly is in a spent mash at the end. Is it just husks? Or do particles still exist, that are storing sugars in their bodies?

There are still remnants of the endosperm grits in addition to husks. I have done some web searching to see if I could find some micrographs of spent grits, but have been unsuccessful. To get good pics of the structure of spent grits the microscopist would need to employ critical point drying of the grits so that the structure does not collapse when dried. (Side note: I used to do critical point drying of biological specimens prior to scanning electron microscopy.)

I would imagine that a continuous vorlouf would help. Over the hour long vorlauf, more sugars might be washed out of the particle body, and into the liquid wort.

Not really. You don't get significant flow thru the interior of the particles, so this would be a minor effect, if it exists at all. A good stir prior to a short vorlauf will give the same results. Once things are homogenized, more vorlaufing/recirculating will not do anything w.r.t. wort concentration.

Perhaps the reason biab gets numbers even close to 3v is that they do a full water mash, very thin indeed. sugars are encouraged to come out into the thin solution. And then instead of going for a settled mash bed, these brewers stir the mash, again, and again encouraging sugars to come out into solution.

No, it's not the thinner mash, it is the lower grain absorption rate you can get with a long drain, especially if you use a hanging bag which provides some squeezing of the grain mass. With a typical MLT the absorption rate will be about 0.12 gal/lb, but a well drained bag can get you down around 0.08 gal/lb, even without manual squeezing.

But a thinner mash will convert faster, so a thicker mash will take longer to reach 100% conversion. If the mash time is too short to reach 100% conversion with a thick mash, but would be with a thin mash, then you can get a conversion efficiency, and mash efficiency advantage, with a thinner mash.

Also, small grits (finer crush) reach complete gelatinization faster than larger grits, so can reach complete conversion faster. BIAB systems tolerate fine crushes better than 3V systems, so again may have a conversion efficiency advantage over 3V systems, if mash times are too short for complete conversion of the larger grits.

In a mash, all sugar is in solution the instant it is created. The local concentration of sugar in the wort can be higher inside the grit pores, until time + diffusion or stirring homogenizes concentration throughout all of the wort

Brew on .

 

[kohalajohn]

Got it. And this leads to a follow up question.

What increase in grain bill is needed to account for the reduced efficiency from fast sparging?

When I order up a recipe, I tell my miller that I brew four gallons instead of the five gallons in most recipes. He adjusts the grain bill down accordingly.

So next time I could tell him to mill up grain for 4.5 gallons but then only actually make 4 gallons.

So how much additional grain is needed?

I guess the answer is it depends. And I could figure it out for my system. Add grain until my OG matches what the recipe predicts.

Instead of being frustrated with low efficiency just acknowledge that my choice to do a fast sparge, means I have to buy another half pound of grain to compensate.

 

[doug293cz]

Got it. And this leads to a follow up question.

What increase in grain bill is needed to account for the reduced efficiency from fast sparging?

When I order up a recipe, I tell my miller that I brew four gallons instead of the five gallons in most recipes. He adjusts the grain bill down accordingly.

So next time I could tell him to mill up grain for 4.5 gallons but then only actually make 4 gallons.

So how much additional grain is needed?

I guess the answer is it depends. And I could figure it out for my system. Add grain until my OG matches what the recipe predicts.

Instead of being frustrated with low efficiency just acknowledge that my choice to do a fast sparge, means I have to buy another half pound of grain to compensate.

Unless you are doing batch sparging (and a dunk sparge is a batch sparge) it is not really possible to predict lauter efficiency. You just have to measure it on your system. Remember that mash efficiency is equal to conversion efficiency times lauter efficiency. You should adjust your mash conditions to get close to 100% conversion efficiency, and then the only thing that varies with grain bill size will be the lauter efficiency, which always goes down as the grain bill weight goes up, no matter what sparge method you use.

To learn how to calculate conversion efficiency, look here.

Brew on

 

[Bobby_M]

I would say 10% is a good place to start for no sparge. Literally you can just get 5 gallon recipes but if you cut down to 4 gallons you do need to consider hopping less.
It is far better to overshoot gravity, dilute and dump than to miss low.

 

[earachemyeye69]

lol, sometimes you guys make things too complicated.
The Brewzilla doesn’t need you to use a bag. Just mash and sparge. Sparge water volume = pre boil volume - mash volume.
Heat sparge water to 80c. Use a 1 liter (4 cup) measuring cup and pour it over the top of your grains.

 

[RM-MN]

lol, sometimes you guys make things too complicated.
The Brewzilla doesn’t need you to use a bag. Just mash and sparge. Sparge water volume = pre boil volume - mash volume.
Heat sparge water to 80c. Use a 1 liter (4 cup) measuring cup and pour it over the top of your grains.

Heating the sparge water isn't necessary and does not get you a more fluid bed nor does it extract more sugars. Just use cold water.

 

[earachemyeye69]

Heating the sparge water isn't necessary and does not get you a more fluid bed nor does it extract more sugars. Just use cold water.

Just a way to use that Brewzilla 35l I have in storage since getting the 65 but you’re right.