Spa panel question

[jocko327]

I have a 30a breaker in my main breaker box right now. I'd like to wire a spa panel up to it, but I'm not confident about the wiring. Spa panels are 50a GFI protected. Can I run the lead out of my 30a breaker into my 50a spa panel to feed a 30a circuit? The wire that would go from my spa panel to the brewery is 10-3 so I am trying to make sure I stay at 30a of current out of the spa panel. Any thoughts? Am I crazy?

 

[Owly055]

YES........... and YES.

Yes you can run your 50amp spa panel from a 30 amp breaker. The only real function of the spa panel will be GFCI

And yes you are crazy ;-)

Remember that GFCIs are not reliable, with close to 70% non functional in areas of high lightening activity. DO NOT rely on the GFCI. It may make you feel good, but it may NOT save your life. Ground everything very well, and test the GFCI EVERY TIME. Just like buckling your seat belt. If you don't use it every time, chances are it won't save you the one time you need it. The same applies to testing your GFCI.


H.W.

 

[Wizard_of_Frobozz]

Another option to consider is just replacing your 30 amp breaker with a GFCI breaker.

They usually run about $90-100, which is only about $20 more than a spa panel. When you add in extra cord and connectors, the cost difference is gone. You do have to special order them (or buy online) and make sure it matches your panel.

Much simpler solution than a spa panel.

 

[jocko327]

Thanks for the feedback, guys. I have EVERYTHING set up except for the GFCI, and I want to brew this weekend! I have some extra cord to wire up a spa panel, plus it is easy to take with me if I move. I think that I will plan to use the spa panel and go from there.

I also appreciate your words of wisdom about the GFCI protection.

On deck this weekend: my first IPA. Wish me luck!

 

[203PH]

Remember that GFCIs are not reliable, with close to 70% non functional in areas of high lightening activity. DO NOT rely on the GFCI. It may make you feel good, but it may NOT save your life. Ground everything very well, and test the GFCI EVERY TIME. Just like buckling your seat belt. If you don't use it every time, chances are it won't save you the one time you need it. The same applies to testing your GFCI.


H.W.[/QUOTE]

That is unbelievable and thank goodness I read this. I am going to have an electrician install a spa panel and 240 outlet. My panel won't fit a 30amp GFCI breaker. Once installed, I will be sure to test each and every brew day. Thanks for posting.

 

[augiedoggy]

I have a 30a breaker in my main breaker box right now. I'd like to wire a spa panel up to it, but I'm not confident about the wiring. Spa panels are 50a GFI protected. Can I run the lead out of my 30a breaker into my 50a spa panel to feed a 30a circuit? The wire that would go from my spa panel to the brewery is 10-3 so I am trying to make sure I stay at 30a of current out of the spa panel. Any thoughts? Am I crazy?

I have the same setup... it works well with the added function of gfci protection and a nearby master kill switch if you mount the spa panel near the control panel . Disregard the comment from owly.. he doesnt believe in GFCIs, Or apparently seat belts, condoms or pretty much anything that isnt !00% effective all the time and foolproof so he thinks we should just not use them at all and simply avoid any possibility of an accident or the situation where the protection could help instead (As if thats humanly possible). he has stated this over and over in other threads.. A gfci is not to be used in place of common sense and caution its just an added layer of possible protection like a fire extinguisher..

I dont know if testing the spa panel every day is a wise choice... I dont know if a GFCI tripping the breaker effect the breaker the same way as a normal trip does but many devices like breakers will loose some life every time they trip and eventually become weak and trip when they shouldnt because of it...
I also wouldnt take the 70% statistic as gospel ... There are many different types of gfci units in use and comparing commonly used cheaper 20A wall outlet gfcis or a $7 wall outlet gfci from harbor freight to a spa panel is really a bogus comparison made to prove a point and back preconceived personal beliefs stated in another thread before he even found this info and started another thread to try to justify them with it....

 

[golfindia]

GFCI circuits wear out, I think MFG companies put "test" buttons on there just for job security. I have a pack of spare 120 gfci outlets for one of my bathrooms. They last a year or so under the strain of my wife's turbo hair dryer every day, before they start making an annoying buzzing sound. I "tested" all of the plugs in my brew setup the first time I hooked it up, and that is good enough for me.

 

[itsnotrequired]

GFCI circuits wear out, I think MFG companies put "test" buttons on there just for job security. I have a pack of spare 120 gfci outlets for one of my bathrooms. They last a year or so under the strain of my wife's turbo hair dryer every day, before they start making an annoying buzzing sound. I "tested" all of the plugs in my brew setup the first time I hooked it up, and that is good enough for me.

the test button is there to provide an easy means of making sure the damn thing is still functioning. short of an external tester, how the heck would someone know it is even still working? it has nothing to do with 'job security'.

a hair dryer should not be 'wearing out' a gfci device. if you have regular failures, it points to other problems such as a less than ideal installation or damage due to voltage spikes from utility switching or lightning.

 

[Owly055]

I have the same setup... it works well with the added function of gfci protection and a nearby master kill switch if you mount the spa panel near the control panel . Disregard the comment from owly.. he doesnt believe in GFCIs, Or apparently seat belts, condoms or pretty much anything that isnt !00% effective all the time and foolproof so he thinks we should just not use them at all and simply avoid any possibility of an accident or the situation where the protection could help instead (As if thats humanly possible). he has stated this over and over in other threads.. A gfci is not to be used in place of common sense and caution its just an added layer of possible protection like a fire extinguisher..

I dont know if testing the spa panel every day is a wise choice... I dont know if a GFCI tripping the breaker effect the breaker the same way as a normal trip does but many devices like breakers will loose some life every time they trip and eventually become weak and trip when they shouldnt because of it...
I also wouldnt take the 70% statistic as gospel ... There are many different types of gfci units in use and comparing commonly used cheaper 20A wall outlet gfcis or a $7 wall outlet gfci from harbor freight to a spa panel is really a bogus comparison made to prove a point and back preconceived personal beliefs stated in another thread before he even found this info and started another thread to try to justify them with it....

Not being a man of faith, I find such faith inspiring!! ;-)

A GFCI MAY save your life..... if it works. A properly grounded system WILL save your life. Unless you are hot tubbing in your mash tun, and your heat stick shorts out, or something equally absurd.

I know many people who believe the earth was created in 7 days 6000 years ago, that global warming is a "liberal plot", and that GFCIs are reliable. That the second coming of Christ is just around the corner and all the faithful will be transported directly to heaven, leaving the rest of us amid the ruins, etc... I don't believe any of these things.

H.W.

 

[itsnotrequired]

A GFCI MAY save your life..... if it works. A properly grounded system WILL save your life.

careful here. it is possible to have high-impedance ground faults that pass enough current to cause you harm yet don't trip the circuit breaker (at least not in a timely manner). or in other words, have fault conditions that a gfci device would interrupt well before a regular circuit breaker.

but your point is well taken. gfcis can fail and should be tested regularly. most manufacturers call for monthly testing. and a gfci is not a substitute for poor installation techniques or unsafe practices. just like you shouldn't point a loaded gun at someone and think it is okay because the safety is on, don't act the fool with electricity because there is a gfci. treat an unloaded firearm like a loaded one, treat a gfci protected circuit as a non-gfci protected circuit..words to live by.

 

[golfindia]

the test button is there to provide an easy means of making sure the damn thing is still functioning. short of an external tester, how the heck would someone know it is even still working? it has nothing to do with 'job security'.

a hair dryer should not be 'wearing out' a gfci device. if you have regular failures, it points to other problems such as a less than ideal installation or damage due to voltage spikes from utility switching or lightning.

I've never replaced one that failed "closed". Lightning must just be hitting one outlet in my bathroom....

 

[Owly055]

careful here. it is possible to have high-impedance ground faults that pass enough current to cause you harm yet don't trip the circuit breaker (at least not in a timely manner). or in other words, have fault conditions that a gfci device would interrupt well before a regular circuit breaker.

but your point is well taken. gfcis can fail and should be tested regularly. most manufacturers call for monthly testing. and a gfci is not a substitute for poor installation techniques or unsafe practices. just like you shouldn't point a loaded gun at someone and think it is okay because the safety is on, don't act the fool with electricity because there is a gfci. treat an unloaded firearm like a loaded one, treat a gfci protected circuit as a non-gfci protected circuit..words to live by.

You have the misconception that the purpose of a ground is to cause the breaker to trip. The real purpose is to have a very low resistance path to ground which electricity will take rather than passing through your body. Tripping the breaker is secondary.

H.W.

 

[itsnotrequired]

You have the misconception that the purpose of a ground is to cause the breaker to trip. The real purpose is to have a very low resistance path to ground which electricity will take rather than passing through your body. Tripping the breaker is secondary.

H.W.

the purpose of an equipment grounding conductor is to provide a low impedance path back to the source, for purposes of operating overcurrent protection devices in the event of a fault. that is its primary purpose, as well as tripping the breaker.

'path to ground' is a misnomer, the path needs to be back to the source. disconnect your egc at the utilization equipment and connect it to a local ground rod. there is now a 'path to ground' but more than likely, the circuit breaker will not open in the event of a fault, due to the high impedance path through the earth back to the source.

 

[Owly055]

the purpose of an equipment grounding conductor is to provide a low impedance path back to the source, for purposes of operating overcurrent protection devices in the event of a fault. that is its primary purpose, as well as tripping the breaker.

'path to ground' is a misnomer, the path needs to be back to the source. disconnect your egc at the utilization equipment and connect it to a local ground rod. there is now a 'path to ground' but more than likely, the circuit breaker will not open in the event of a fault, due to the high impedance path through the earth back to the source.

Ground is bonded to neutral in any modern system I've ever worked with. We'll have to differ on the primary purpose of it. Many shorts are not "dead shorts", and I've seen a number of situations where the breaker did not trip, but a properly grounded device will prevent you from getting shocked. Forgive me for using resistance and impedance interchangeably. They are so close to the same thing that most people do not understand the difference. It is worth the time for those who do not to google it, as that distinction is relevant here.

Note that I googled "the purpose of grounding" and came up with the following URL:
http://www.spgs-ground.com/information/purpose-of-grounding

The very first purpose listed is "Personnel Safety".

I'm not your typical "suit". I work with 480 volt systems doing troubleshooting and repair all summer long, and have for many years...480 and water. I consider "Personnel Safety" the primary value of good grounding. Preventing equipment from self destructing and preventing electrical fires comes #2 after preventing dead people in my book if not in yours. Ground fault protection on 480 three phase is not unheard of, but I've never worked on a system that had it.

H.W.

 

[itsnotrequired]

it doesn't have to be an either-or situation. a properly designed system that offers personnel safety will inherently offer equipment safety.

you state life safety as a priority but please don't believe that 'proper grounding' alone can be used in lieu of gfci protection. it is possible to have completely sound and proper grounding system yet still not trip a circuit breaker on a high impedance ground fault. worn insulation, etc. on a hot conductor that touches the inside of a metal box could be a cause. the current is low enough that the breaker will not operate so now you have normally non-current carrying parts energized and have a shock hazard. an individual could unknowingly touch these energized parts, create a parallel ground path back to the source and without a gfci, get a shock that could do real harm.

 

[Honda88]

I accidently touched the prongs of a dremel tool while I was plugging it in 110v and it shocked me pretty darn good for quite awhile. I lived and didn't do it ever again. Maybe that's what is wrong with me. The End.

 

[Owly055]

it doesn't have to be an either-or situation. a properly designed system that offers personnel safety will inherently offer equipment safety.

you state life safety as a priority but please don't believe that 'proper grounding' alone can be used in lieu of gfci protection. it is possible to have completely sound and proper grounding system yet still not trip a circuit breaker on a high impedance ground fault. worn insulation, etc. on a hot conductor that touches the inside of a metal box could be a cause. the current is low enough that the breaker will not operate so now you have normally non-current carrying parts energized and have a shock hazard. an individual could unknowingly touch these energized parts, create a parallel ground path back to the source and without a gfci, get a shock that could do real harm.

Grounds have provided protection long before there were GFCI systems. You have the mistaken idea that this protection is entirely based on tripping breakers. It is NOT. It is based on having a path of least resistance / impedance to ground so your body is not the ground.

I'm NOT against GFCI in any sense other than relying on them. They should be regarded as SECONDARY protection. Good design with good insulation and connections and good grounding is your primary protection, and you should always act as if GFCI did NOT exist.

If you drive as if you are immortal, and indestructable, depending on seatbelts and airbags to keep you from harm....... you are going to die. GFCI is a fall back like an airbag. I've been driving since I was 15, and I'm 61, and have NEVER had an accident of any kind. I drive as if seatbelts and airbags didn't exist. I work on center pivot irrigation systems every summer all summer long. They are well grounded, and have no GFCI systems, and operate on 480 volt 3 phase power..... I've never gotten a shock, but I do things like the "slap test"........ hitting the towers with enough inertia to carry my hand past them in case by some fluke they are hot, and using ONE hand instead of two so if I do hit something hot it will NOT travel through my heart, and use dry leather gloves and I frequently use a voltage pen, and other techniques, all designed to minimize risk.

I'm not as some seem to think, on an anti GFCI crusade. I will NEVER regard them as reliable or depend on them as my primary protection, and you should not either.

H.W.