Sour Cherry Wheat (Fast and Fake Kriek)

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sundevil

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Started my sour mash yesterday and plan to brew Sunday so long as the sour mash goes well. (I couldn't get lacto at my LHBS so I just pitched some dry grain into the cooled mash. Fingers crossed.) What kind of cherries is everyone using? Sour, like the type you'd use for a pie?
 
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Buxton

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NWIH I'm going back and reading all of this again to see if this was mentioned BUT: In other processes one uses saran wrap to cover the top of a surface which would be impacted by oxygen. Do you think that would work here? It's easier than purging with CO2 - especially as some of these guys will not have a kegging setup.

Yeah I used plastic wrap but I also purged with co2 as a precaution. Co2 is more dense than o2 so it blankets the sour mash anyways but yes I think it's a great idea.


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Buxton

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NWIH I'm going back and reading all of this again to see if this was mentioned BUT: In other processes one uses saran wrap to cover the top of a surface which would be impacted by oxygen. Do you think that would work here? It's easier than purging with CO2 - especially as some of these guys will not have a kegging setup.

Yeah I used plastic wrap but I also purged with co2 as a precaution. Co2 is more dense than o2 so it blankets the sour mash anyways but yes I think it's a great idea.



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Roughster

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Question for you Buxton:

I am still not clear when to add the Sour Mash to the regular mash process. Let's try to make this clear:

Option 1: You add the entire contents of your sour mash at the very beginning of your Mash, for example right after you add your initial infusion to bring the grain to 152. Proceed as normal.

Option 2: After the initial infusion step to bring the regular mash to 152, you wait 40 mins, so it is now 20 minutes before Mash out, and you add the entire content of the sour mash, then proceed as normal.

Option 3: After the mash out at 170 step is complete timewise, but before you drain your mash tun, you then add the entire contents of the Sour Mash. You would drain, then sparge to desired pre-boil volume as normal.

Sorry for the confusion, hopefully this makes my question clear. Thanks! :cross:
 

Roughster

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Well I started the sour mash today. It is currently sitting in the crockpot on Warm ='ing about 108 degrees. I purged with argon (one of the wine bottle ones) and then used plastic wrap to pretty much reduce head-space to nothing.





Since I haven't got an answer from my last question, but per a previous post I think Buxton means Option 1, so I will do that to ensure maximum tartness. I'll post the results.
 

Roughster

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Only did a 48 hour sour, wish I had done 72 hours, but I was sick on Thurs. After 24 hours a had a little bubble rise but I just bled it over to the side. Brew day was uneventful with Option 1, but I would say the mash temp, took a pretty big drop. I still went through with the plan and mashed out at 1.053 as verified with hydrometer and Refractometer. I added 32 oz of tart cherry juice before I dropped it into the primary (OG doesn't include the 32 oz).

I'll post up progress, lessons learned and my final end to end process when I get this bad boy in the bottle.
 

Roughster

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So some quick comments as I wait this one out and will allow me to assemble my final thoughts in a summary post:

#1 - Don't wait to find "tart" cherries. Depending on where you live/season, these can be VERY hard to find. In the end, I called every produce stand and grocery store in a 10 mile radius for nothing. I went down to the local Nugget Market and checked the produce, denied, checked the frozen fruit section, denied, finally checked the canned fruit aisle and found 5 cans of Oregon Tart and 2 Oregon Dark Cherry. I bought all of what they had. I then checked the juice aisle and found 2 x 32 ox 100% tart cherry juice with no preservatives. I used the dark cherries + a 32 oz Tart Cherry juice in the boil and added 32 oz of the tart juice in the primary. I'll use the 5 cans of tart cherries in the secondary which will be just under 5 lbs.

#2 - A crock pot was easy to use but did require some "maintenance". I elected to go sour mash straight into the crock pot, but on "Warm" it would creep up to 130 F if I left it on endlessly. I started a cycle of ramping it up to almost 120 before I went to bed or work, then unplugging it, keeping the lid on it, and then covering in a towel. When I woke up or got back from work it would have dropped into the 90s, I would just ramp it back up and then cover, rinse repeat for 2 days. It wasn't bad, but wasn't hassle free like a smoker sounds.

#3 - I did the strike water to the grain and hit 152 on the dot for initial mash, but I immediately poured in ~1.5 gallons of 120F'ish sour mash which dropped the temperature about 10 degrees. In hindsight, next time I will use Option #2 to ensure maximize conversion. I think this is why my OG was low at 1.053 instead of the target 1.065. Lesson learned.

#4 - I tasted my 48 hour sour mash and it had some pucker but I will guess the dilution will pull a lot of that out of the final product. Next time I will definitely do at least 72 hours. Don't be afraid of starting the sour mash after work. It takes like 1.5 hour start to finish and is cake with almost no cleanup. Do it on Tues night if you plan on brewing Sat or Weds if you plan on brewing Sunday.

#5 - Due to the low pH I added yeast energizer and yeast nutrient (1/2 tsp each) to the boil. I oxygenated with pure O2, then put it into a Ferm chamber with 3 frozen 2 liters to a blow off tube. Fermentation had started this morning, so less than 12 hours later.

Not sure on how the Tart Cherry juice additions will play out or how much flavor impact it will have. I'll let you know if it comes out a Cherry Bomb!
 

Roughster

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Day 2 - Fermentation is freight training. Guess the yeast nutrient and energizer helped!

[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I9l0SRLnNJY"][YOUTUBE]I9l0SRLnNJY[/YOUTUBE][/ame]"
 

Soeze

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Day 2 - Fermentation is freight training. Guess the yeast nutrient and energizer helped!

[YOUTUBE]I9l0SRLnNJY[/YOUTUBE]"
I loved the video you posted. I got the same reaction the first I brewed, but I didnt use a blowoff hose and it stained my concrete follow. This time I made a sour pumpkin ale for the upcoming season. However, I did 7 day sour mash with the crockpot, like I did the last time. I just hope it turns out well like my last one.

pumpkin.jpg
 

The_Glue

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Will sour mashing give a more "authentic" taste compared to simply adding lactic acid to your beer? (or wort)
 

Roughster

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I brewed a short turn around Berlinerweisse to test exactly this. It and my Cherry Kriek should keg on the same day. The Berliner will be a pure lactic acid addition so I should be able to see what the complexity difference is hopefully. I'll keep you posted!


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Roughster

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I tasted it today for the first time today as I transferred it to the secondary. A very pleasant funk and tart. A much more relaxed cherry flavor than I was expecting but nice over all. I am really excited about how this is going to turn out!


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The_Glue

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I brewed a short turn around Berlinerweisse to test exactly this. It and my Cherry Kriek should keg on the same day. The Berliner will be a pure lactic acid addition so I should be able to see what the complexity difference is hopefully. I'll keep you posted!


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Cool!
Just ordered some lactic acid to test out this stuff.
 

Roughster

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Ok I have both with Berliner weisse and this Sour Mash kriek kegged. The kriek definitely has a little extra depth to it, but I still ended up adding 2ozs of lactic acid to it to get to the sourness I wanted. I might have let it go a bit long as it fermented pretty dry. I back sweetened with 1/2 cup of Splenda and it's just about right. The kriek is not fully settled or carbed yet, but the SWMBO really likes the Berliner with a shot of Rasberry liquor over the kriek. I am still hopeful that getting the kriek to high levels of carbonation will improve the over all flavor profile. I'll let you know how it finishes up in a few days.


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Roughster

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This has been on tap for almost two weeks. It is good, the tartness is really coming through, especially with the 2oz LA addition. The cherry flavor is nice but not too upfront, I may add some cherry flavoring just to pump it up. This beer pours a solid pink with pretty much no transparency. Kinda like a melted milkshake. It was a solid opaque color all the way through primary and secondary. I thought for sure at some point it would settle out a bit especially once in the Kegerator and chilled, nope.

I'll take a pic of this and post it tonight. Overall this is a decent recipe, but next time I will prob just Dirty Berliner Weisse it and buy some Torani Tart Cherry Syrup to add the cherry flavor I want.
 

Roughster

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This has been on tap for almost two weeks. It is good, the tartness is really coming through, especially with the 2oz LA addition. The cherry flavor is nice but not too upfront, I may add some cherry flavoring just to pump it up. This beer pours a solid pink with pretty much no transparency. Kinda like a melted milkshake. It was a solid opaque color all the way through primary and secondary. I thought for sure at some point it would settle out a bit especially once in the Kegerator and chilled, nope.

I'll take a pic of this and post it tonight. Overall this is a decent recipe, but next time I will prob just Dirty Berliner Weisse it and buy some Torani Tart Cherry Syrup to add the cherry flavor I want.

Ok here are the pics of the two: pretty obvious which is which!
ImageUploadedByHome Brew1415326992.032319.jpg


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oceanic_brew

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Brewed this yesterday

Had troubles keeping the mash at 162 for 40 mins on the stove without stirring and agitating. If reached 180 a couple times. Tried using a slow cooker on warm setting overnight to keep the sour mash at 100, in the morning it would be at 130 and after sitting off all day it would get down to 80. It's worth noting that when i checked temperature in the middle of the mash it was significantly lower than 130 so I would like to try a different method next time.

It soured more and more over the first couple days, it seemed that it wasn't getting any more so I left it for 6 days in total with the same on and off routine but it still didn't sour enough for me.

Mash ph was close to 4, so next time I will plan to adjust for that. We have very soft water here in Halifax.

Added the sour mash at 20 mins left in mash.

The cherries clogged up my counter flow chiller so I had to resort to an ice and water bath.

OG was 1.070 and I only ended up with 4.5 gallons so I topped up to 5 and ended up at 1.065.

I will post tasting notes as fermentation continues but as of right now it's not very sour but I feel that the green beer taste is talking that over a little bit. Hopefully the sourness will come out a little more.


Any suggestions on making it more sour perhaps with an addition in the secondary?
 

Bisco_Ben

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Hey guys, so I ran into a little trouble with my sour mashed recipe today and was wondering if anyone could help. I did the 3lbs pilsner in 1 gallon of water sour mash (mashed around 170-180 for the whole 50 minutes unfortunately as I over heated my strike water). When I took it out today (after 3 days) it had a nice but sort of faint sour dough smell and clearly soured at least a little. I went with 5lb's wheat, 2lbs pils and .75lb sour malt in the main mash in order to achieve a lower gravity (was aiming for 1.055). I normally get around 75-80% efficiency with similar gravity wheat beers, but I wound up at 1.045 instead with this beer (~60%). I added the entire sour mash to my main mash right before draining the first runnings and gave it a very thorough 20 minute batch sparge. I am just very confused about how I could have had such low efficiency with this batch. Also note that I didnt stir the hell out of the 3lb mini sour mash as I was trying to limit oxygen. Any insight would be greatly appreciated!
 

dfborn

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Anyone try this as a kettle sour instead of a sour mash? Think it would work?
 

bill402

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What's the longest you'd let the sour mash go? Mashed it on Wednesday for this past Sunday, but got sick and missed my brew day. If I brew on Friday evening, it will have been sitting for 9 days.
 

pdx_brewer

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Anyone try this as a kettle sour instead of a sour mash? Think it would work?
Absolutely! I currently have a very similar version of beer (except kettle soured) in secondary and it is tasting fantastic. I used about 5-6 Goodbelly LP299v pills (L. Plantarum) in about 7'ish gallons of wort. Let it ride for 48 hours and it was down to a pH of 3.4.
 

meridianomrebel

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I thought I'd share my notes from this brew:

10/18: I brewed up my sour mash using Wyeast 5335. I kept that wrapped up in an electric blanket with the temp set to low.

10/18-10/22: Monitored temperature. Temp fluctuated between 100-110F for the most part. Very little visual fermentation detectable.

10/22: Normal brew day (using BIAB). Sour mash had a nice sourdough odor to it. Followed OP instructions. Pitched WLP320 once temp came down, sat it in a plastic bag with ice packs.

10/23: Very active fermenation. Blowoff tube needed.

10/24: Very thankful I added the blowoff tube - very happy yeasties.

11/05: Racked to secondary on top of 32oz of King Orchard's Tart Cherry Concentrate.

11/05-11/19: No activity in the airlock.

11/19: Kegged 2.5 gallons, bottled remaining. Keg set to 30psi.

11/20: Added gelatin to keg.

11/21: Keg set to 12psi.

11/24: Poured a couple samples from keg. Very cloudy with a thick pink head. Cherry odor. Taste is very tart and has off flavor from the use of concentrate. Maybe 16oz of concentrate would have been better?

11/27: Still very "cloudy" with off flavor from concentrate. Very tart, not really any sour. Carbonation is very good though. Head is more white than pink now.

So, I am thinking that my problem was using the cherry concentrate. If I ever do this again, I'd either use real cherries or go with a cherry puree. I was trying to save some money on the cherries, and that was a mistake. The strange off flavor from the concentrate is a bit hard to deal with. I'm hoping this gets better over time in the bottles, because it's really not a good beer - but that's my fault for using concentrate.

20161127_174756.jpg
 

Crohnnie

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I thought I'd share my notes from this brew:

10/18: I brewed up my sour mash using Wyeast 5335. I kept that wrapped up in an electric blanket with the temp set to low.

10/18-10/22: Monitored temperature. Temp fluctuated between 100-110F for the most part. Very little visual fermentation detectable.

10/22: Normal brew day (using BIAB). Sour mash had a nice sourdough odor to it. Followed OP instructions. Pitched WLP320 once temp came down, sat it in a plastic bag with ice packs.

10/23: Very active fermenation. Blowoff tube needed.

10/24: Very thankful I added the blowoff tube - very happy yeasties.

11/05: Racked to secondary on top of 32oz of King Orchard's Tart Cherry Concentrate.

11/05-11/19: No activity in the airlock.

11/19: Kegged 2.5 gallons, bottled remaining. Keg set to 30psi.

11/20: Added gelatin to keg.

11/21: Keg set to 12psi.

11/24: Poured a couple samples from keg. Very cloudy with a thick pink head. Cherry odor. Taste is very tart and has off flavor from the use of concentrate. Maybe 16oz of concentrate would have been better?

11/27: Still very "cloudy" with off flavor from concentrate. Very tart, not really any sour. Carbonation is very good though. Head is more white than pink now.

So, I am thinking that my problem was using the cherry concentrate. If I ever do this again, I'd either use real cherries or go with a cherry puree. I was trying to save some money on the cherries, and that was a mistake. The strange off flavor from the concentrate is a bit hard to deal with. I'm hoping this gets better over time in the bottles, because it's really not a good beer - but that's my fault for using concentrate.

Maybe it's just too bitter from unripe cherries used in the concentrate? I just used some tart cherry preserve in a wheat beer. What's it taste like? It looks pretty good
 
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Buxton

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I thought I'd share my notes from this brew:

10/18: I brewed up my sour mash using Wyeast 5335. I kept that wrapped up in an electric blanket with the temp set to low.

10/18-10/22: Monitored temperature. Temp fluctuated between 100-110F for the most part. Very little visual fermentation detectable.

10/22: Normal brew day (using BIAB). Sour mash had a nice sourdough odor to it. Followed OP instructions. Pitched WLP320 once temp came down, sat it in a plastic bag with ice packs.

10/23: Very active fermenation. Blowoff tube needed.

10/24: Very thankful I added the blowoff tube - very happy yeasties.

11/05: Racked to secondary on top of 32oz of King Orchard's Tart Cherry Concentrate.

11/05-11/19: No activity in the airlock.

11/19: Kegged 2.5 gallons, bottled remaining. Keg set to 30psi.

11/20: Added gelatin to keg.

11/21: Keg set to 12psi.

11/24: Poured a couple samples from keg. Very cloudy with a thick pink head. Cherry odor. Taste is very tart and has off flavor from the use of concentrate. Maybe 16oz of concentrate would have been better?

11/27: Still very "cloudy" with off flavor from concentrate. Very tart, not really any sour. Carbonation is very good though. Head is more white than pink now.

So, I am thinking that my problem was using the cherry concentrate. If I ever do this again, I'd either use real cherries or go with a cherry puree. I was trying to save some money on the cherries, and that was a mistake. The strange off flavor from the concentrate is a bit hard to deal with. I'm hoping this gets better over time in the bottles, because it's really not a good beer - but that's my fault for using concentrate.
I would recommend using Pectic Enzyme to help you reduce haze from fruit/pectin.
 

bill402

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Anyone ever try this with grapefruit? I did it with raspberries and it was stellar. Should I add juice to the boil (and if so, how much for a 5 gal) and then take a vegetable peel and add strips to the secondary? What about raw fruit in there?
 

mrkrausen

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So I've read over this thread a few times now and read the BYO article as well. My plan is to do a 10 gallon batch. Half of it will be a wedding gift for my girlfriend's sister and her fiance that are getting married at the end of January and the rest is for will be for home consumption. I'm thinking of a grain bill of 11 pounds of white wheat malt 11 pounds of pilsner malt and about 12 ounces of acid malt. I still need to put it into beersmith to get the final numbers on the grain bill. My plan is to mash half of the pilsner malt like recommended and then split the 5.5 pounds of pilsner malt into two separate crock pots, both hooked up to temp controllers. Another option is leaving it in the aluminum pot, flushing with co2, placing the plastic wrap over it and wrapping it in a fermwrap connected to a temp controller. I have one vial of WL677 that I was going to split between the crock pots and let sit for 3 days. I would then brew as normal on brew day. I would kind of like to use two different types of fruit, as I will be splitting this into two 5 gallon batches. Do you think it's necessary in the flavor development to add the fruit during the boil and to the secondary like suggested, or could I just add all of the fruit during secondary? Also, I'm thinking of doing the initial mash in a aluminum pot at the suggested temperature and then putting it in the oven to maintain the temperature. Has anyone else done that and does it sound reasonable? Thanks!
 
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zonkman

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Hi all,

Planning on getting this going tomorrow. Super excited.

The only problem is.... all brew shops seem to be out of Wyeast 5335. Kind of down to 2 choices:

1. Use a handful (?) of unmilled Pilsner instead, rely on its bugs, what happens happens.

2. Go with Omega OYL-605. Anyone have experience with this? Same procedure for the sour mash, same temp? It seems different - http://www.milkthefunk.com/wiki/Lactobacillus - than the Wyeast 5335.

Any help hugely appreciated.

Many thanks,
Z
 

Golyo

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...and about 12 ounces of acid malt.
As I understand the sour mash will bring the pH way down, so using acid malt is not a good idea. Using chalk to increase the pH was recommended and also using more yeast than you'd normally do.
 

zonkman

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So, I sour mashed in 2 x 1 gallon carboys. The one smelled horendous and was discarded. The other smelt only faintly cheese-meets-vomity and was added to the boil. Last night I racked to secondary containing the 5lb cherries. The smell is still there, strong enough for me to resist tasting it (but not outright putrid).

I am thinking of pitching some brett.

Should I? And can I leave it on the cherries for the months it takes to do it's thing? If not, I'm not sure it's worth it. Haven't yet discarded a batch. Reluctant. Any other suggestions?
 

phoney

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I started my sour mash yesterday. The pot is sitting in an urn filled with water and an STC1000 is keeping the temperature steady between 116 and 117F.

Its already smelling and looking very funky. I BIAB and therefore dont have a lauter. At what stage should I add the sour mash to the main mash? After mashout at 172F and before hoisting the bag?
 

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im thinking about doing a 10 gallon batch and splitting it up 5 gallons clean hefe, 5 gallons fake kriek. I think, instead of sour mashing, I will use a couple pounds of dry pilsner extract and sour that for a couple days then boil it and then add it to the 5 gallons that I want to be sour. That way my clean beer and sour beer can all come from the same mash without contamination. any thoughts?
 

Shredbetty

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My Notes:

1. I made the Sour Mash as instructed, using a sous vide for the initial holding. I highly recommend this as it was effortless, and made the mash day go quickly. Then I poured the mash into a small cooler, wrapped the cooler with a heating pad on low, and covered the whole thing with a blanket. Let sit for two days and sour was perfect.

2. Added mash at sparge and initial flavor was awesome.

3. I added Irish Moss @30, and also brewers licorice (because I like a slightly creamier head and sours usually have a thin head)

4. Used frozen cherries, which I added after 5 days (did not boil them), then let sit for 4 weeks.

5. Excellent.

Using the same technique, I am planning to make a farmhouse version. Thank you for the recipe.
 
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