Sour Cherry Wheat (Fast and Fake Kriek)
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Soeze
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Make sure you read http://byo.com/stories/item/1691-sour-mashing-techniques. This helped me a lot in understanding the mash. If you decide to use a crock pot, think about using a temperature controller to regulate the crock-pot. If really helped me to control the temperature. Good luck
Thanks for the link! I will read through that tonight. Can you recommend a good and relatively inexpensive (I am willing to pay for something that is not the cheapest but is the real deal) temp controller? I was definitely going to use a crock pot and have warned the family to not lift the lid because it will not be what you think it will be 
Thanks again!
Thanks again!
1_Man_Wolf_Pack
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FYI - When I used the crockpot I filled up two growlers with wort, almost like doing a yeast starter, and then pitched some milled grain from my grain bill that was not part of the mash for the lacto to take off. I cooled the wort to 100, filled the growlers and placed them in the crockpot which was filled with water. I had to refill the water every 12 hours or so but with this method I was able to keep the wort at 100 degrees steady for 3 days with the crockpot on the WARM setting. This method worked well for me and provided enough sourness to be a nice refreshing summer brew. The tart cherries definitely add a bit of bite and I put in a little acidulated malt into the grain bill as well.
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Buxton
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Sorry I have neglected to answer questions lately, haven't been back on the forum in a while. There really isn't any "correct way" to sour mash, although I have had some unsuccessful attempts in the past. Just using the bacteria on the husks/malt has not been very successful for me, it lead to nasty rancid wort that ruined the brew. So honestly, I have found that mashing in 20% of your grain bill (in my case I chose the wheat but I have also added the Pilsner with great success too) to around 120-130 degrees F and then pitching a pure lactobacillus culture into the mash yields the best results and the most desirable sour flavor. After I mash in and pitch the lacto I then place plastic wrap over my sour mashing vessel and purge the head space with CO2. You can seriously use a 5 gallon plastic bucket, it works fine. I then store it in my attic or garage; just the hottest place I can find and let it sit there for 2-3 days. At that point I add the entire sour mash, wort and grain, to my normal mash. I usually taste the sour mash to make sure it is as sour as I wanted. I proceed as normal, run off my wort, boil, add hops, cool, ferment on a BIG pitch of yeast, at higher than normal temps. (72-80 F). Pitching much higher than normal rates is essential since the pH of your wort is very low by this point. Most ale yeast doesn't perform well below 4, but if you pitch big enough it should attenuate. I have also used berliner weisse yeast to help ferment this beer to, although if you choose to use this type of yeast you probably shouldn't add hops as the alpha acids will stifle the fermentation of the lacto. So as I said there are many ways to approach this, none are necessarily right but I have definitely had the most success with the process I just explained. Hope this helps/clarifies any questions or concerns. I think using a crock pot is over kill. As long as you sanitize well and then seal your container and purge with CO2 you should be fine even if it falls to room temp. You will be surprised at the amount of sourness you get in just 24 hours. Good luck all!
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Buxton
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Sorry, I don't know enough about Graff Ciders to be able to answer your question.
NWIH I'm going back and reading all of this again to see if this was mentioned BUT: In other processes one uses saran wrap to cover the top of a surface which would be impacted by oxygen. Do you think that would work here? It's easier than purging with CO2 - especially as some of these guys will not have a kegging setup.
Started my sour mash yesterday and plan to brew Sunday so long as the sour mash goes well. (I couldn't get lacto at my LHBS so I just pitched some dry grain into the cooled mash. Fingers crossed.) What kind of cherries is everyone using? Sour, like the type you'd use for a pie?
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Buxton
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Yeah I used plastic wrap but I also purged with co2 as a precaution. Co2 is more dense than o2 so it blankets the sour mash anyways but yes I think it's a great idea.
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Buxton
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Yeah I used plastic wrap but I also purged with co2 as a precaution. Co2 is more dense than o2 so it blankets the sour mash anyways but yes I think it's a great idea.
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Question for you Buxton:
I am still not clear when to add the Sour Mash to the regular mash process. Let's try to make this clear:
Option 1: You add the entire contents of your sour mash at the very beginning of your Mash, for example right after you add your initial infusion to bring the grain to 152. Proceed as normal.
Option 2: After the initial infusion step to bring the regular mash to 152, you wait 40 mins, so it is now 20 minutes before Mash out, and you add the entire content of the sour mash, then proceed as normal.
Option 3: After the mash out at 170 step is complete timewise, but before you drain your mash tun, you then add the entire contents of the Sour Mash. You would drain, then sparge to desired pre-boil volume as normal.
Sorry for the confusion, hopefully this makes my question clear. Thanks! :cross:
I am still not clear when to add the Sour Mash to the regular mash process. Let's try to make this clear:
Option 1: You add the entire contents of your sour mash at the very beginning of your Mash, for example right after you add your initial infusion to bring the grain to 152. Proceed as normal.
Option 2: After the initial infusion step to bring the regular mash to 152, you wait 40 mins, so it is now 20 minutes before Mash out, and you add the entire content of the sour mash, then proceed as normal.
Option 3: After the mash out at 170 step is complete timewise, but before you drain your mash tun, you then add the entire contents of the Sour Mash. You would drain, then sparge to desired pre-boil volume as normal.
Sorry for the confusion, hopefully this makes my question clear. Thanks! :cross:
Well I started the sour mash today. It is currently sitting in the crockpot on Warm ='ing about 108 degrees. I purged with argon (one of the wine bottle ones) and then used plastic wrap to pretty much reduce head-space to nothing.
Since I haven't got an answer from my last question, but per a previous post I think Buxton means Option 1, so I will do that to ensure maximum tartness. I'll post the results.
Since I haven't got an answer from my last question, but per a previous post I think Buxton means Option 1, so I will do that to ensure maximum tartness. I'll post the results.
I agree with option 1.
Keep us updated!
Keep us updated!
Only did a 48 hour sour, wish I had done 72 hours, but I was sick on Thurs. After 24 hours a had a little bubble rise but I just bled it over to the side. Brew day was uneventful with Option 1, but I would say the mash temp, took a pretty big drop. I still went through with the plan and mashed out at 1.053 as verified with hydrometer and Refractometer. I added 32 oz of tart cherry juice before I dropped it into the primary (OG doesn't include the 32 oz).
I'll post up progress, lessons learned and my final end to end process when I get this bad boy in the bottle.
So some quick comments as I wait this one out and will allow me to assemble my final thoughts in a summary post:
#1 - Don't wait to find "tart" cherries. Depending on where you live/season, these can be VERY hard to find. In the end, I called every produce stand and grocery store in a 10 mile radius for nothing. I went down to the local Nugget Market and checked the produce, denied, checked the frozen fruit section, denied, finally checked the canned fruit aisle and found 5 cans of Oregon Tart and 2 Oregon Dark Cherry. I bought all of what they had. I then checked the juice aisle and found 2 x 32 ox 100% tart cherry juice with no preservatives. I used the dark cherries + a 32 oz Tart Cherry juice in the boil and added 32 oz of the tart juice in the primary. I'll use the 5 cans of tart cherries in the secondary which will be just under 5 lbs.
#2 - A crock pot was easy to use but did require some "maintenance". I elected to go sour mash straight into the crock pot, but on "Warm" it would creep up to 130 F if I left it on endlessly. I started a cycle of ramping it up to almost 120 before I went to bed or work, then unplugging it, keeping the lid on it, and then covering in a towel. When I woke up or got back from work it would have dropped into the 90s, I would just ramp it back up and then cover, rinse repeat for 2 days. It wasn't bad, but wasn't hassle free like a smoker sounds.
#3 - I did the strike water to the grain and hit 152 on the dot for initial mash, but I immediately poured in ~1.5 gallons of 120F'ish sour mash which dropped the temperature about 10 degrees. In hindsight, next time I will use Option #2 to ensure maximize conversion. I think this is why my OG was low at 1.053 instead of the target 1.065. Lesson learned.
#4 - I tasted my 48 hour sour mash and it had some pucker but I will guess the dilution will pull a lot of that out of the final product. Next time I will definitely do at least 72 hours. Don't be afraid of starting the sour mash after work. It takes like 1.5 hour start to finish and is cake with almost no cleanup. Do it on Tues night if you plan on brewing Sat or Weds if you plan on brewing Sunday.
#5 - Due to the low pH I added yeast energizer and yeast nutrient (1/2 tsp each) to the boil. I oxygenated with pure O2, then put it into a Ferm chamber with 3 frozen 2 liters to a blow off tube. Fermentation had started this morning, so less than 12 hours later.
Not sure on how the Tart Cherry juice additions will play out or how much flavor impact it will have. I'll let you know if it comes out a Cherry Bomb!
#1 - Don't wait to find "tart" cherries. Depending on where you live/season, these can be VERY hard to find. In the end, I called every produce stand and grocery store in a 10 mile radius for nothing. I went down to the local Nugget Market and checked the produce, denied, checked the frozen fruit section, denied, finally checked the canned fruit aisle and found 5 cans of Oregon Tart and 2 Oregon Dark Cherry. I bought all of what they had. I then checked the juice aisle and found 2 x 32 ox 100% tart cherry juice with no preservatives. I used the dark cherries + a 32 oz Tart Cherry juice in the boil and added 32 oz of the tart juice in the primary. I'll use the 5 cans of tart cherries in the secondary which will be just under 5 lbs.
#2 - A crock pot was easy to use but did require some "maintenance". I elected to go sour mash straight into the crock pot, but on "Warm" it would creep up to 130 F if I left it on endlessly. I started a cycle of ramping it up to almost 120 before I went to bed or work, then unplugging it, keeping the lid on it, and then covering in a towel. When I woke up or got back from work it would have dropped into the 90s, I would just ramp it back up and then cover, rinse repeat for 2 days. It wasn't bad, but wasn't hassle free like a smoker sounds.
#3 - I did the strike water to the grain and hit 152 on the dot for initial mash, but I immediately poured in ~1.5 gallons of 120F'ish sour mash which dropped the temperature about 10 degrees. In hindsight, next time I will use Option #2 to ensure maximize conversion. I think this is why my OG was low at 1.053 instead of the target 1.065. Lesson learned.
#4 - I tasted my 48 hour sour mash and it had some pucker but I will guess the dilution will pull a lot of that out of the final product. Next time I will definitely do at least 72 hours. Don't be afraid of starting the sour mash after work. It takes like 1.5 hour start to finish and is cake with almost no cleanup. Do it on Tues night if you plan on brewing Sat or Weds if you plan on brewing Sunday.
#5 - Due to the low pH I added yeast energizer and yeast nutrient (1/2 tsp each) to the boil. I oxygenated with pure O2, then put it into a Ferm chamber with 3 frozen 2 liters to a blow off tube. Fermentation had started this morning, so less than 12 hours later.
Not sure on how the Tart Cherry juice additions will play out or how much flavor impact it will have. I'll let you know if it comes out a Cherry Bomb!
Soeze
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I loved the video you posted. I got the same reaction the first I brewed, but I didnt use a blowoff hose and it stained my concrete follow. This time I made a sour pumpkin ale for the upcoming season. However, I did 7 day sour mash with the crockpot, like I did the last time. I just hope it turns out well like my last one.
I brewed a short turn around Berlinerweisse to test exactly this. It and my Cherry Kriek should keg on the same day. The Berliner will be a pure lactic acid addition so I should be able to see what the complexity difference is hopefully. I'll keep you posted!
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I tasted it today for the first time today as I transferred it to the secondary. A very pleasant funk and tart. A much more relaxed cherry flavor than I was expecting but nice over all. I am really excited about how this is going to turn out!
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Ok I have both with Berliner weisse and this Sour Mash kriek kegged. The kriek definitely has a little extra depth to it, but I still ended up adding 2ozs of lactic acid to it to get to the sourness I wanted. I might have let it go a bit long as it fermented pretty dry. I back sweetened with 1/2 cup of Splenda and it's just about right. The kriek is not fully settled or carbed yet, but the SWMBO really likes the Berliner with a shot of Rasberry liquor over the kriek. I am still hopeful that getting the kriek to high levels of carbonation will improve the over all flavor profile. I'll let you know how it finishes up in a few days.
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This has been on tap for almost two weeks. It is good, the tartness is really coming through, especially with the 2oz LA addition. The cherry flavor is nice but not too upfront, I may add some cherry flavoring just to pump it up. This beer pours a solid pink with pretty much no transparency. Kinda like a melted milkshake. It was a solid opaque color all the way through primary and secondary. I thought for sure at some point it would settle out a bit especially once in the Kegerator and chilled, nope.
I'll take a pic of this and post it tonight. Overall this is a decent recipe, but next time I will prob just Dirty Berliner Weisse it and buy some Torani Tart Cherry Syrup to add the cherry flavor I want.
I'll take a pic of this and post it tonight. Overall this is a decent recipe, but next time I will prob just Dirty Berliner Weisse it and buy some Torani Tart Cherry Syrup to add the cherry flavor I want.
Ok here are the pics of the two: pretty obvious which is which!
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oceanic_brew
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Brewed this yesterday
Had troubles keeping the mash at 162 for 40 mins on the stove without stirring and agitating. If reached 180 a couple times. Tried using a slow cooker on warm setting overnight to keep the sour mash at 100, in the morning it would be at 130 and after sitting off all day it would get down to 80. It's worth noting that when i checked temperature in the middle of the mash it was significantly lower than 130 so I would like to try a different method next time.
It soured more and more over the first couple days, it seemed that it wasn't getting any more so I left it for 6 days in total with the same on and off routine but it still didn't sour enough for me.
Mash ph was close to 4, so next time I will plan to adjust for that. We have very soft water here in Halifax.
Added the sour mash at 20 mins left in mash.
The cherries clogged up my counter flow chiller so I had to resort to an ice and water bath.
OG was 1.070 and I only ended up with 4.5 gallons so I topped up to 5 and ended up at 1.065.
I will post tasting notes as fermentation continues but as of right now it's not very sour but I feel that the green beer taste is talking that over a little bit. Hopefully the sourness will come out a little more.
Any suggestions on making it more sour perhaps with an addition in the secondary?
Had troubles keeping the mash at 162 for 40 mins on the stove without stirring and agitating. If reached 180 a couple times. Tried using a slow cooker on warm setting overnight to keep the sour mash at 100, in the morning it would be at 130 and after sitting off all day it would get down to 80. It's worth noting that when i checked temperature in the middle of the mash it was significantly lower than 130 so I would like to try a different method next time.
It soured more and more over the first couple days, it seemed that it wasn't getting any more so I left it for 6 days in total with the same on and off routine but it still didn't sour enough for me.
Mash ph was close to 4, so next time I will plan to adjust for that. We have very soft water here in Halifax.
Added the sour mash at 20 mins left in mash.
The cherries clogged up my counter flow chiller so I had to resort to an ice and water bath.
OG was 1.070 and I only ended up with 4.5 gallons so I topped up to 5 and ended up at 1.065.
I will post tasting notes as fermentation continues but as of right now it's not very sour but I feel that the green beer taste is talking that over a little bit. Hopefully the sourness will come out a little more.
Any suggestions on making it more sour perhaps with an addition in the secondary?
drumuglyknuckles
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